Yeti Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I'm really not getting the argument against Ironclads ... First of all, having an ironclad does not eliminate having Venerables. They are a different class of dreadnought and you can field all three at the same time if you want. Also, has nobody though of the option of a Venerable Ironclad Dreadnought! :P Secondly, Space Wolves are a close support, close combat oriented chapter. If anything, most of our dreads should be Ironclads, just from a fluff point of view. With the possible exception of BA, we are the chapter that is most likely to produce (in the sense of having heroes worthy of being put into Ironclads) and use Ironclad dreadnought. I do agree that Bjorn should make a comeback as a SC and have upgraded stats. But even if we have HQ level, unnamed dreads with abilities similar to our current Ven ... Who is going to take more than one in a game? Compare the SM venerable with the SW venerable ... Ours is better and cheaper. If we keep our current venerable w/special rules and stat boosts ... don't expect it to costs less than 200pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166022-new-codex-concerns/page/2/#findComment-1960051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 ironclads are basically siege dreadnaughts, they fit in nicely with armies like Imperial Fists where siege equipment is all part of their make up but the 'standard' dread is more fitting to most chapters, ours included as it gives them a flexible unit with long range anti-tank capabilties (or mid range anti infantry depending on weapon load) and a close combat potential... in fairness most people only like ironclads because they can have 2 cc weapons and better front armour... in my opinion they were just added to the codex as a way of selling more drop pods, i mean how many times have you seen people advocating dropping in a unit supported by some ironclads... there wasn't really any fluff supporting their inclussion before and they aren't as flexible on the table as a normal dread, thats the reason i'd rather not see them... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166022-new-codex-concerns/page/2/#findComment-1960086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 -there is no way we'll lose the wgbl (or similar powered character) as without one we would have no option to an equivalent space marine captain (think about it, c:sm has chapter master and captain- we have wolf lord and wgbl- comparable character levels). I agree that we'll probably keep the Wolf Guard Battle Leader (although he might get a new name), but disagree with your assessment. Our equivalent to the Space Marine Captain is the Wolf Lord. Our equivalent to the Chapter Master is a bloke named Logan Grimnar. The guy who isn't reflected in the Codex Space Marines is the WGBL, but we presumably need him because of the Retinue rule and background justification. i didn't relly explain myself properly... of course grimnar is the chapter master, but what i meant to get at was the fact that if you look at the marine codex you get 2 levels of space marine captain (chapter master and captain) one with improved stats/abilties and a higher points cost as a result... if we lose the wgbl then outside of the 'support characters' (rune/wolf priest) we would only have 1 other viable infantry option in a wolf lord. this would then mean that outside of the support chracters we would have noone to which the company captain (wolf lord) could delegate command to and also mean that the on ly way we ould take an imprved infantry commander would be to take Logan Grimnar as a character... stinkenheim, No, you explained yourself perfectly. The thing is, the Codex Space Marines includes the Chapter Master because it is used as the template for hundreds of different chapters; not all of them want to field Marneus Calgar as their CM, so they include a generic option. Our codex, however, will only be for a single chapter, so it is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Instead, look to the recent codices for Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Discounting any special characters, the only HQ options for the Blood Angels are the Company Captain, Librarian, and Chaplain. For the Dark Angels it is the Company Master (e.g. Captain), Librarian, Chaplain, and Interrogator Chaplain. Neither of them offer an additional commander option unless you start looking at the unique special characters. These chapters don't have anyone to delegate command to, either. We might still get the WGBL, because it is unique to the Space Wolves, but the only reason we got that in the first place is because of the Retinue rule, and the requirement for additional HQ options. Best regards, Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166022-new-codex-concerns/page/2/#findComment-1960435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 good point val... haven't seen the BA/DA dex so didn't realise tey'd got rid of te cheap commander choice... thanks for pointing that out :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166022-new-codex-concerns/page/2/#findComment-1960442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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