Best combinations of Units and Icons?

[Corpse.]

After obtaining the new SM codex, the new IG codex(prerelease leak, dont ask me for it), new DA codex, new(ish)chaos codex and new ork codex. I get a feeling what we're in for in the future, with a large plethora of anti marine builds never seen before on a scale that may balance the overly marine populated 40k gamers class.

 

With the addition of 5th editions "Only troops score" theme, and being scared of having 50+ marines die in a 1500 point game under one volley from an IG battle line. It gets me to thinking what is the best combination. There are plenty of ways to build a regular marine unit of all kinds, raptors, regulars, havocs, chosen etc.

 

So then with all that, rhinos included/excluded lets think what our upcoming challenge will be. Icons can be shifted easily from khorne to nurgle from game to game. Being that icons give the best benefits for minimal model exchange, all leading me to wanting to start this thread.

 

Here is my conclusion:

Troops: Icon of Tzeentch, 10+ models. No rhino, more models or the spendy icon wont get its worth. This comes through facing 20 sized sisters of battle units to have my 8 zerkers slain by the sister superior with eviscerator, all before they got to kill 10 sisters. Of course this also means lining up cheaper marines with 5++ to take hits and give cover saves to the units behind.

 

Terminators: This is a hard one, they come with a save and giving it +1 for the cost of 1.3 terminators is very off the wall, so perhaps nurgle or khorne. I justify khorne, beause every +X (where x is a "new model's worth in attacks) is like buying a whole new model. Typicly, having an icon of khorne is payed for itself in a unit of 3 or more terminators, charging less so but staying still its moreso. Slaanesh icon for cheap giggles against marine armies and MEQ with power weapons or claws. I think Khorne wins out here.

 

Chosen: Slaanesh or khorne definately. For smaller units that cant run 20, the tzeentch icon, coupled with the fact they can outflank means they are very offensive in their role in melee. Otherwise, glory is superior for a gunline style chosen unit. Maybe tzeentch, but as for havocs with 20 size units being possible, and taking up the slot where terminators can be, its a difficult choice.

 

Possessed: These guys rock in larger units, and having 2 icons (already having an icon of tzeentch technicly) its a rude unit to have 80 attacks with on the charge with an icon of khorne at strength 5. I have gotten FNP with these guys, and that alone was a rude awakening. Scout and fleet just lets you get into combat quicker of course, most likely a turn faster then normal which means fewer casualties and thus a points saver. Power weapons and rending will make them highly targetted. Tzeentch icon is justified, so is khorne to make massive attacks, slaanesh and nurgle not so much IMO.

 

Bikes: Yeah these guys are spendy and not worth it half the time. I suggest a khorne or nurgle icon here. Khorne so they can act like they have more models in melee and nurgle obviously to get toughness 6 tie-downers. Typiclly, glory is best if the unit is smaller and a unit of 3 dont bother with an icon.

 

Raptors: Nurgle, Khorne or Tzeentch icon here. Tzeentch, so that you dont have to buy daemons to handle some banshees, and of course being shot it. Nurgle icon is great, only because toughness 5 is normally restricted to bikes and most bikes have a 2 turn assault limit. These guys assault as quick as bikes do without turbo boost, so why not make them as tough as bikes so we dont pay more then a terminator costs to get one? Khorne icon also obvious, 20 models charging for 80 attacks cant be passed up.

 

Havocs: Slaanesh, yes I said it. Slaanesh! Most units that break into your backlines to get your heavy guns have initiative 4 or 5, and these guys pack a decent melee punch on their own. If they can strike first, you reduce enemy attacks and thus in conclusion get to stop some attacks from wounding all your models forcing your special gunners to take armor saves. Other then that, its glory, or tzeentch, just for the staying power. If you run short range and no plasma guns then nurgle and khorne are the best, because they dont score khorne makes them nasty. While nurgle can make them a decent bog-down unit.

 

Lords: Subjective, I prefer khorne daemon weapons, tzeentch daemon weapons and slaanesh daemon weapons. For killing power and diversity, the Tz/Kh weapons for 2D6's(one shoots), and the last one for instant death potential.

 

Sorcerers: Slaanesh, yeah I prefer lash like any powergamer may but half the time I dont take that power I take a form of speed with breath of chaos. And the fact I like initiative 6 instant death melee, otherwise nurgle with a bike and gift of chaos as a flanker.

 

 

 

Though lots of this is different, I have been taking less and less cult troops to represent my chaos. Mostly because I feel the fluff is half dead, and that I like the diversity of the icons for every 1 model I buy I technicly have 5(6 with fabius), because of the icons or no icon at all.

 

Your thoughts? What do you prefer? How is the said unit built to your preferred icon?

 

Edit: Changed color due to request.

[chillin]

OMG, don't write in blue on a black background in you want people to actually read your post.

From the few bits and pieces I could force my eyeballs to focus on long enough to read, if you think that IoTz is the best for csm squads and IoS is the best for hvy weop havocs it makes me question whether you've actually played chaos.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'll let jeske handle this one.

[Corpse.]

Hm, questioned if I actually play chaos. Alright, I'll bite. I've played for 9 and 1/2 years roughly, with over 200 marine models to count in total the entire duration. (Meaning most of them are older, pewter or worse)

 

Lurking here, I've noticed jeske is a bit unrelenting in terms of codex fluff subjects. Would like to see what he likes to use icons for, besides summon/leadership rerolls.

 

For basic CSM units, I have.... Issues with massed shooting and not being able to roll saves. While my troops are in front and being shot up, with nothing to give them cover saves as objectives are not inside cover most of the time. They are the units that give my other units the cover saves hiding behind them. As it stands, I dont like being shot by 9 basilisk rounds in the first round before I get to move any of my models. (You'll see, the upcoming IG codex will be evidence of it, we have it already). And also, the typical eldar 2 cheap 20 guardian squads with tons of melta and other high AP weapons vapourising 20 marines a turn. We have those here, and it has forced me to take icons that give me INV saves. And thus, winning me games. I run with 2 squads of 20 with IoT in each, and for 7 games straight against heavy AP3+ armies have not fallen to below 5 out of 40 total. Leaving me scraps even at the end of a game where I'm practicly annihilated.

 

I hope this color is a bit better for the eyes? Its a blue-white, so I dont think its that bad. Let me know if you dislike it.

 

Edit: Default color.

[Rain]

Ah crap, my eyes. Please type in the default color, most people don't want to feel like they're staring at a welding torch while reading your posts. Anyway I think you are going about this the wrong way, it's not invulnerable saves that are supposed to protect you, it's vehicles. As long as your troops are inside something, they are impervious to small arms and plasma might as well be autocannons. I personally tend to have all non-obliterator troops in something, it helps a lot especially now that rhinos all have free smoke launchers and LR's are well, LR's.

 

Also you seem to be talking up how hyper-competitive your environment is and yet you "prefer khorne daemon weapons" and think possessed "rock". Oh and jeske is an odd fellow, he believes in his own interpretation of the fluff and has a very binary "either follow this exactly or just take whatever" approach, in any case if he disagrees with you it won't be over fluff since you didn't even mention what legion you play.

[Corpse.]

Well, we all have our styles. Vehicles are good, but...... The average 2k game goes like this:

 

First turn always, always gets that "Sieze the initiative!" check used. The reasoning is that the standard game we play at 2k has roughly all 3 ord slots (we dont call them heavy support, its ord slot), the typical fast melee unit that rushes to tie up the rear shooters and krak the vehicles ASAP. The typical large batch of guns staring at your transports first. We counted the average game has 3 dead rhinos before turn 2 starts. I dont feel like having the minimum of 600 points worth in troops forced to take a save per solider (bypassing hit rolls) because of some lascannon shots and the typical wasted 50 point rhinos that perished with the 2-3 average deaths per bust.

 

Having an icon instead of a rhino feels better to me, at least for the cost. I can batch up 20 per unit, because when tey get charged it dosent feel like they're charging with the numbers, and the return attacks would make someone feel as if they were the ones being charged. 20 marines can wipe 7 banshees that charnged. Thats if I whittle them down a bit before they get in, having killed their transport or shot them up once before they tie me. Forcing him to expend two teams of banshees to try and get the job done rather then "eat up 10 and save 10 for later" saying we have around here. Face the whole 20 right off the bat. I run melee very often. I run 80 models minimum per 2k game.

 

2x20 troops with Powerfist, 2 meltas and IoT

1x20 raptors with IoN, powerfist and 2 meltas

1x20 possessed with IoK

1 slaanesh lash sorcerer that hangs out with the troops.

 

First turn charge by 20 "bikes" due to lash, tie them down and if they die off to powerfists and the like (to kill a terminator is to force two basic "marines" to fail their saves, 3+ is 1/2 of 2+) so if my 400 point unit (10 terminators worth) has 20 5+ inv save wounds, they often beat down the terminator units they encounter unit vs unit. In fact I dont remember the last time they lost to a terminator unit one on one without having suffered massive casualties beforehand.

 

Thats how my army works. The possessed are there to slap down the off chance I face a wraithlord, I pick them for their consistant str5, 5+inv save and the extra 20 attacks I get with a simple 30 point icon. The maybe chance they get power weapons, rending or FNP is a 50% chance I get what I want out of them. I would pack terminators instead, but I want my 20 squads to eliminate 30 orks that charge them after their waagh roll.

 

I dont lose often, and the armies that lose to me most are tank eavy armies that forget that krak grenades hit their rear armor value wherever I charge them. The armies I lose to most are the ones that use skimmers to go far behind me after luring me to their table edge. (Though rhinos would help here, they would have died long before being used in that situation).

 

Having an entire army of 5+inv, 3+ armor saves (and 4+ cover saves, for the raptors), at 20 models per 500 points is my main theme. I want to fiddle with what people think others should use, and all the critisism given is use rhinos, have I played long, prefer khorne daemons weapons and the like.

 

Not one mention of which icons I should try......

[the jeske]

well been off we had 3 days of holydays here. As list goes post IG dex. absoluttly nothing changes for the BL"boring as hell"list . you took termicid with melta and oblits to counter LR rush builds and MC ? they will work just as well now . You use LAsh to get in to hth 1 turn sooner[with squads not the dp, the dp is the fire magnet] ? gratz to you this tactic will still work .

did you build your list thinking about drop poding sternguard and mirror match termicid? you will adapt nor problem to the vets/skimers combo. But if you played something else[like a pure 1ksons army or footslogging khorn army] ... then your in bigger trouble , because this is one more army that makes your list suck hard.

 

The IG [sadly] are more like a tau clone now. shorter range of main weapons , but hvy weapons, fis..I mean valkir of fury , strong hvy support with some awesome tanks . As always IG is one of the best armies to tailor , but unlike orks or even chaos its not the best all comers army .

 

For list building . If you try that 20 man squads trick +lash in a tailor match , you may win , but next time your opponent will spam blast templates dont even have to be ap3 [what of course doesnt mean he wont take any] and full valikr fury to block charges. you play against IG , just like you play against tau. multiple units hit the line and break them in 2 turns of hth , both your and his hvy support have a karmic strike [aka kill each other]. in 1850 we may see more 5 man raptors with flamers , because there is more then one army[orks] they would be worth using against.

 

as my NM list goes I wont change a thing . maybe change one 8 man squad to get a 5 man squad and a rhino for more LoS blocking , but that still to be tested.[and this means you have to glue those damn tanks G-man , I know your reading this :tu: ]

[Corpse.]

Plenty of lists ruin other lists. :confused: .. The 6 meltas in the force usually does well eating up skimmers that want to block me. I used lash in 2 ways, one is to keep things close, the other is to keep other units out of range for one extra turn so I can bash smaller units with my horde.

 

I know I'll get barked at for this, but when 20 marines charge 10 zerkers (using lash to do it well, and lashing other enemies to go away) it ends up being a zerk-shish-kabob. Oddly its the lists with super powerful small units that ends up giving me trouble. Like GK's.

 

The 40 pt 5+ inv save thing saves up to about 6-7 marines (90-105 pts worth) during a fight where they arent allowed saves. If a zerk fister can kill 9 marines out of the 20 in a long fight, its saved 3, reducing the speed at which my champ is forced to take an armor save.

 

This army works well, and it sucks when I get lashed. (I have lash too, but facing 2 lashes is annoying haha). The "Effect entire units" stuff really tarnishes the tactic. Whenever any of my large squads get involved in melee its a large rush of marines to eliminate ASAP and go onto the next target. So I can actually narrow damage to localised areas, get rid of something special inside a unit and move onto the next thing quick making even well tied together armies feel like they've had things singled out and eliminated.

 

Try some large units out and see what I mean. Able to charge long lines of men all within reach of eachother. Having to use a long front line, given the choice to charge something on the left or right in extreme distances and being able to kill one unit, and not be too far off from the next. Its a wave feel, and it comes from my ork playstyle, coupled with power armor its even nastier.

 

This force has surprised me with hidden perks even still after playing it a bunch. Try some large units and see for yourself! (An extra powerfist, or 10 more men in the same melee? Localised damage)

[the jeske]

plenty of lists ruin other lists.

yes and that why we have meta game and counter set ups.

 

 

I know I'll get barked at for this, but when 20 marines charge 10 zerkers (using lash to do it well, and lashing other enemies to go away) it ends up being a zerk-shish-kabob. Oddly its the lists with super powerful small units that ends up giving me trouble. Like GK's.

:confused: few are the :cuss moments I had on this forum ..but this is one of them . first of all , if a squad cost almost double the cost of a unit he is fighting against and doesnt win , then it means it really really sucks . So 20 csm beating 10 zerkers isnt nothing special .

 

 

as the second part goes , I will asume that your talking about GK terminators with a GM and probablly a brother captin in it . psychic hood to stop half lash and lots of power attacks at str6... ok you have problems with those . maybe because when you run 20 man squads and still have 2/3 squads to have enough scoring units , you dont have enough pts for oblits and termicid squads that decimate units like that ?

 

The 40 pt 5+ inv save thing saves up to about 6-7 marines (90-105 pts worth) during a fight where they arent allowed saves. If a zerk fister can kill 9 marines out of the 20 in a long fight, its saved 3, reducing the speed at which my champ is forced to take an armor save.

cool for you and I will run 10 or less man squads that can either konga ,ride in rhinos , that can easilly get cover save[better then +5 in 5th ed].

 

This army works well, and it sucks when I get lashed. (I have lash too, but facing 2 lashes is annoying haha). The "Effect entire units" stuff really tarnishes the tactic. Whenever any of my large squads get involved in melee its a large rush of marines to eliminate ASAP and go onto the next target. So I can actually narrow damage to localised areas, get rid of something special inside a unit and move onto the next thing quick making even well tied together armies feel like they've had things singled out and eliminated.

and what happens if you get hit by a squad and 2 hqs [more or less the same cost ] , higher I of 5 means less attacks from you and am talking here about normal hqs , no DPs with warp time or chaos lords. even if you kill the HQs in the first phase of hth it will still be max 6 wounds lost on your opponents side and 5+everything your opponent kills with his unit on your opponent side . as csm are not fearless there is a chance they will run away now [specially as you run IoT so no rerolls].

 

Its a wave feel, and it comes from my ork playstyle, coupled with power armor its even nastier.

yes but orks play with 3/4 20 man mobs +two hard as nails biker nob units. you wont get that with csm . +unlike csm they have fleet for one turn and that makes a world of difference for a hth footslogging army .

 

 

This force has surprised me with hidden perks even still after playing it a bunch. Try some large units and see for yourself! (An extra powerfist, or 10 more men in the same melee? Localised damage)

firs of all dont assume that people didnt test different codex csm set ups before you . Second thing 10 extra man is not the same as 2x10 man . thats 2 scoring units . 2 targets for the enemy to shot at . 20 man also means no transport , so slower army with less squads [easier to target for the enemy] , bigger problems with getting in to hth [terrain , easier to bog down in hth with stuff like wright lords or ironclads] . Its like a world of difference not just one extra fist . If big squads worked you could be sure that they would have already been used by top chaos players around the world . Stranglly you dont see those lists , you dont see them even at smaller tournaments .

[tastytaste]

Um MoS on Havocs now I have really heard it all... The type of lists you are suggesting are so spendy for what you get I understand they might last longer then most, but for what to die a horrible death on turn 4 instead of 2? I think the real problem is you are thinking of CSM units in terms defense not offense. By trying to cover all your bases for protection you are losing sight of how are you going to actually kill anything.

[Corpse.]

Rhinos, already mentioned how long those last. At most, a 26 pt model will die from a lascannon shot, not 35(50)+wound-rolling 10 other marines causing 2-3 deaths.

 

80 zerks with 4 powerfists (no inv saves) runs at 460 squad/1920 points, relies heavily on getting the charge and lacks the meltaguns/jump packs/first turn charge. I may benefit from a unit or two, but they would require cover saves to last like my other models can and would be shot up first as a result.

 

80 models all with 4+cover/5+inv comes out heavier. I want to run a list with 110 marines but the blasts would kill much more at that rate without the Inv saves. A front unit to take the hits with a IoT maybe...

 

Termicide/Bike suiciders/Oblit suiciders/Lord(sorc) suiciders, I see it as a waste of points if I have to count on my enemies lack of judgement and 1/3 chance on scatter dice to make something happen properly.

 

 

 

Having 20 bear down on 10 with lash to thank for it is a good feat, and an army full of tanks and melee have to rely on minimal firepower and half the model count I do often hesitate to get in to grits with me. Being able to wound an entire unit of 10 guys, forcing their special weapons, heavy weapons and even their sergeant to take saves gives me a good chance to remove that threat early. Meanwhile having enough bodies on my side to prevent my character dying to mass wounds. Localised damage, setting single units against eachother controlling small situations, getting at least one model in melee combat out of a large unit and being able to block a long list line of sight and so on. Large units cover large areas and that goes for benefits and drawbacks. Being charged by a unit and wiping it out/forcing it to flee so I can rapid fir 15+ bolters into his next unit or charge something else is a bonus. Preventing the marine armies with their clever combat tactics to save them when one turn combats are all I need before they are rendered ineffective (or even run away without their speial guns and if they charge me, they die).

 

Lots of perks to having very large units. I have been charged by the outflanking random genestealer units only to see them die off before my next turn arrives. Having terminators on par with my basic troops of equal cost.

 

Will refute carge bonuses for the sake of math-hammer. (Lash/deaths etc)

that 400 pt unit vs 10 terminators

2 Power weapon attacks, 1 hit, .5 wounds, 2 power fist attacks is 1 hit, .83 wounds, 1/3rd save rate taken after totalled wounds. 2 regular attacks, 1 hit, .5 wounds (6 wounds to a terminator death)

I4: 1Sarg:0.5, Marines: 3 dead termi (assume the sarg dies)

I1(Fists): 7Termi: 5.8 wounds, Champ: .83 (.55 wounds past 5++)

5.8+0.5-2/3=4.2 dead marines (63 points)

3.5 dead terminators=140 points

 

A troop choice that beats terminators in melee, a troop choice with 40 bolter rounds short range, and the 20 at long range, a troop choice that scores. Its a harsh unit and the chances I get to use meltas are very few, even to the point of considering plasma guns instead for its 24" range slapping a fleeing skimmer.

 

Having 2 HQ's (namely characters inside units from what I think you mean) is quite tiresome, but no different then having a slightly souped up champion with an extra initiative and maybe higher strength. Two HQ's cost roughly 250+ points on average, and thats when my initative 6 force weapon takes care of them. If your speaking about how I run my army, I have that sorcerer hang out with my troops. Very few armies can use 15+ marines in a single unit, and normally require sending multiple units after me. This is when I use lash, and that splits his forces apart. If he uses transports, then most often I bust a tank or two and charge his bewildered and hurt squad. Because to get within charge range he needs 12" from me, and thats where I often breach them with the numbers. A few have tried to split my forces apart by pushing tanks between my units and its worked well so far for a few players. Though the same tactic could be used to split 10 size units apart and be even more effective so I'm still greatful of it.

 

There are times I wish I had a suicide unit to send in to remove a artillery piece or to catch a fast unit hiding somewhere. If I add any such units they come in too soon, get hunted down too fast/targetted heavily(even with 4+ cover saves) and severely discoroged for my style of play.

 

Might be something you didnt quite throw in there, I run numbers lots of marines and saves against things that bypass 3+ armor. Where I have inv saves that may whittle a normal horde force down fast, I have numbers to make up for massed wounds against my 3+ saves.

 

I have bashed up against thousand sons armies, raider forces and all manner of tanks. Powerfists and meltas may give vehicles a reason to back away, but against thousand sons they have to be close to make their money back and I end up charging them within a turn or two, usually running at them while they stagger with slow and purposeful rule.

 

80 wounds, 26.6 would be saved by the 5+ inv, so if everything ignores my armor about 20 of those added to the 80 number, they are basicly fighting 100 marines worth. (assuming my first turn I give raptors cover saves in the first turn, then they got their charge/deep strike later if I feel like it)

 

Sorry I was emphisising the localised melee ideal with lash and other situational perks. Didnt mean to act arrogant.\

 

Edit: I type long posts, got a reply during this post, heh...

 

MoS on havocs, to pay a measly 20 points to give havocs (who already come prepared to take on melee charges with two ccw's) the ability to fend themselves off even quicker. Small example:

 

10 Assault marines charge, they get their extra attacks with that sergeant perhaps with a fist. You get your 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds and potentially 8.3 dead marines (1 marine lost, its 3 attacks lost, he has 27, without charging its 20-21 attacks) In return, 27 attacks, 13.5 hits, 6.75 wounds (and thus, 4 heavy weapons you miss the margine of rolling a save on your 4 heavy weapons!) Its a bit sketchy. When you can get the assault marines off your unit during your assault phase by charging a counter-charge unit into them you actually can save yur 4 heavy weapons and render his assault useless.

 

And you can have more then just 10 havocs. He can only have 10 assault marines, if he gets 20 past you then you deserve to lose your havocs. Normally people get just one unit for harassment. I ran my havocs at 20, with 4 flamers and icon of slaanesh, ending in devistating results with lash. Having 10+ wounds, and then topping it with 16 pistol shots, and then charging with 60 attacks striking ahead of his marines, and having it end before a single attack roll is made against my unit.

 

4 flamers, each hitting 5 guys, 10 wounds, 16 pistols generate 4 wounds, then charge with 60 attacks making 15 more wounds for 29 wounds (1/3 will die, and thats mostly the entire unit). He may get the chance to hit back with maybe 1 or 2 guys, and then run, to be chased down by initiative 5 chasers.

 

I like how it works I've tested it and used each of the icons in my starting post more then 6 times each, even ones I dont have listed all tried out. Just unsure what I may have missed, what if this icon is better then that icon for reasons unknown to me? I dont know everything, so I started this thread. Only to explain and defend my playstyles uses and have other units suggested to me without any icon suggestions to go with them.

 

Please suggest icons with the units you tell me to try.

[the jeske]

Rhinos, already mentioned how long those last. At most, a 26 pt model will die from a lascannon shot, not 35(50)+wound-rolling 10 other marines causing 2-3 deaths.

a rhino has to survive 2 turns . after that everything else is a bonus . its the there to block LoS and block charges and sometimes tank shock stuff ,to blast with plasma oblits [if there is no or if there is not enough lashers]. also the lascanon is hardlly the most problematic weapon for tanks in 5th ed. in fact in most cases there are fewer of those , then ever and not just because minimax are dead.

 

 

80 zerks with 4 powerfists (no inv saves) runs at 460 squad/1920 points, relies heavily on getting the charge and lacks the meltaguns/jump packs/first turn charge. I may benefit from a unit or two, but they would require cover saves to last like my other models can and would be shot up first as a result.

 

80 models all with 4+cover/5+inv comes out heavier. I want to run a list with 110 marines but the blasts would kill much more at that rate without the Inv saves. A front unit to take the hits with a IoT maybe...

ok . what size games to you play 2500pts , there is no tactics for that size of games , because most armies can kill half the table on turn 1 .

There is no way your going to fit more then 4 troop squads in a normal 1750-1850 army[and thats 4x8 zerkers and 40 csm]. even for a 2k list you have to run a special build[like a LR rush one] to get 5 troops [or run LSD , but then your probablly playing a zilla build so you would probablly have 2 normal and 2 demon troops].

 

Termicide/Bike suiciders/Oblit suiciders/Lord(sorc) suiciders, I see it as a waste of points if I have to count on my enemies lack of judgement and 1/3 chance on scatter dice to make something happen properly.

and the top chaos players around the world will disagree with you here . being able to deep strike is essenstial against certain armies [like eldar for example or to counter LR rush builds].

 

 

Will refute carge bonuses for the sake of math-hammer. (Lash/deaths etc)

that 400 pt unit vs 10 terminators.

 

 

2 Power weapon attacks, 1 hit, .5 wounds, 2 power fist attacks is 1 hit, .83 wounds, 1/3rd save rate taken after totalled wounds. 2 regular attacks, 1 hit, .5 wounds (6 wounds to a terminator death)

I4: 1Sarg:0.5, Marines: 3 dead termi (assume the sarg dies)

I1(Fists): 7Termi: 5.8 wounds, Champ: .83 (.55 wounds past 5++)

5.8+0.5-2/3=4.2 dead marines (63 points)

3.5 dead terminators=140 points

ok and whats next you will show how 20 marines own up 40 IG conscripts? no one runs terminators as assault units [at least not the chaos ones] and no one uses 10 man squads . at least not if he is serious about the game . There are sm assault termis and its true that mulit wounding is best way against them . only they will come out of a LR and are never used without an HQ . they will charge[because they are faster] and if one unit is used then probablly the army is either a khan build[so more assault units in support] or a cantor one[huge number of attacks for charge turn] . the 20 man unit will lose on wounds alone.

 

Two HQ's cost roughly 250+ points on average, and thats when my initative 6 force weapon takes care of them.

unless they are on the other side of the unit, , have I7[eldar / dark eldar] are immune to instant death . + the sorc doesnt have many attacks there is a big chance that after hiting on +4 wounding on+4 [lets say its not khan/biker guy or a nurgle HQ] and him doing his inv[+4 or +3 if he can take storm shields] there wont be any attacks staked on the HQ.

 

 

This is when I use lash, and that splits his forces apart. If he uses transports, then most often I bust a tank or two and charge his bewildered and hurt squad.

ok am having problems with seeing this lists 80 csm and HQs and you have pts for hvy support to pop tanks . also every good army out there is ready to counter Gate/Lash/elder powers , what do you do when lash doesnt work ? or is it that your list is plain carried by lash and your opponents playing lists that are unable/not build to deal with it.

There are times I wish I had a suicide unit to send in to remove a artillery piece or to catch a fast unit hiding somewhere. If I add any such units they come in too soon, get hunted down too fast/targetted heavily(even with 4+ cover saves) and severely discoroged for my style of play.

what are you a fluff p;layer? if a unit dies , but does what its suppose to do I dont care if it dies. oblits and DPs die in most of my games. If if they wouldnt I would table my opponents.

 

I have bashed up against thousand sons armies, raider forces and all manner of tanks. Powerfists and meltas may give vehicles a reason to back away, but against thousand sons they have to be close to make their money back and I end up charging them within a turn or two, usually running at them while they stagger with slow and purposeful rule

aside for proving that 1ksons armies dont work , what does that help the normal players]. ever tried to play a mirror match against BL chaos ? I think you didnt at 2250-2500pts [i think you play at those points] the list runs 9 oblits inv +5 or not even with cover the loses would be huge .

 

And you can have more then just 10 havocs. He can only have 10 assault marines, if he gets 20 past you then you deserve to lose your havocs. Normally people get just one unit for harassment. I ran my havocs at 20, with 4 flamers and icon of slaanesh, ending in devistating results with lash. Having 10+ wounds, and then topping it with 16 pistol shots, and then charging with 60 attacks striking ahead of his marines, and having it end before a single attack roll is made against my unit.

again . unless you mean BA build that actually use assault marines[because they are troops] then the real problem you will have is loads of str5/int5 +3 hiting guys hiting your mainlines , not a squad assaulting your havocks . if someon would go after those he would either drop 2 iron clads[and the units stops shoting for the whole game , unless your havocks are special weapons , but then what are they doing at the back?] or double tap them with sternguard.

4 flamers, each hitting 5 guys, 10 wounds, 16 pistols generate 4 wounds, then charge with 60 attacks making 15 more wounds for 29 wounds (1/3 will die, and thats mostly the entire unit). He may get the chance to hit back with maybe 1 or 2 guys, and then run, to be chased down by initiative 5 chasers.

read the rules about what I your using for chase roll.

[Corpse.]

Chase=Sweeping Advance: "If the winners total is same or greater, then the enemy unit is destroyed" as for the D6+initiative page 40. My fault for not specifying sweeping advance, we just call it chasing around here.

 

A rhino indeed has to survive 2 turns, one turn is enough around here, and most people often dont let that happen 1/2 the time they get first turn. Lascannon armies still survive here, being in the form of 24" range bolter units packing a lascannon and plasmagun, assisting gunlines and the like even a fella who runs 9 sentinels with the darn things.

 

The zerk comparison to my list was just a points and durability to body mirror ratio. How lash assists and how I try to make things happen.

 

Lash is a cornerstone in my build but like I mentioned earlier I attack in waves of units and bodies layering on the damage where possible. Lash enhances it sure, but very few people prepare for 60 models hitting them at once (I run with units nearby with a line of each units coherency models to get charges everywhere on either side of both ends if possible). Making it easy for me to overwhelm 10 models by charging the singular loner passing through my other units coherency, making for a dumb looking charge but initiating a defenders react so my large unit can swarm them in addition. I win the combat normally, and consolodate giving two units of mass number the charge distance as a bonus driving me very deep into enemy lines.

 

Its a combination effect, and against vehicle armies they either try to rush in to get a load of krak grenades,power fist attacks and melta shots or stay away avoiding my army and moving around losing shooting phase shots. Land raider builds make the model count so small when I get to grits with the objective they have no hope for taking it. There were instances where I surrounded a land raider only to have it tank shock for two turns at full 12" speed just to be able to deploy the unit inside after getting to his deployment zone. He was using water style, and had no choice but to flee when I had literaly 4 foot long swarm of coherency-maxxed distance models bearing down on him.

 

We play 1000-4000 lists the average being 2000. I play 20 models per 500, starting with my troops, then elite, then fast.

 

Its true the first turn or two I dont do much damage but when it seeps into 3+ the casualties pile up. People dont have room to get around me, and often are forced to expose their rear armors to get past me even when my melee cant hit. Vehicle forces have a very difficult time with my army unless they can keep a fair distance from everything. This means eating up my weakest flank with fire and running that way when I get near them.

 

Turn 1: I move and run, he shoots. Turn 2: I move and run, collecting melee with my jumpers if its 2k, he shoots and counter-melees. Turn 3: I get everything I can into melee, ravaging a long line of models at the same time. He can no longer shoot most of my army, and in some parts he will be severely restricted and tied down.

 

The drop pod/deep strike allows room to react. Having a two turn assault unit hitting the rear by use of terrain and transports hiding them when possible makes it harder to take them out rather then a deep striking unit avoiding terrain and most likely placed in open terrain where I have full view because they dont want to scatter badly. If/When I have havocs, they dont have a powerfist among them most often when made up as a long range unit. They usually have cover saves from my horde in front. They can often remove a dreadnought alone with their ranged weapons normally anti vehicle since my horde can handle most lower end models. I mention things from my experiences.

 

You like terminators from what I gather, to a good extent from the number of mentionings on termicide. You think a larger unit deep striking off the nurgle raptors icon, using a nurgle icon themselves be a good option? Having the raptors tie things up nearby or act as cover save potential for the terminators good? (Trying to get back to original topic)

 

 

 

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As to your reply on conscripts and such... I'm not sure if I can take you seriously if you have that mindset to examples to persue subjects to enforce points in the topic. Having several of those sort of replies sent my way already in this thread has made me reconsider the chaos section of the site for a level headded discussion. (I dont quote, on the premesis of allowing people to delete if there is a change in heart) so I prefer not to get personal. Not a warning, but I am making it clear I put such statements into a persons standing towards me as a result of how I take their further comments from then onward. Intended to get me that way I'm sure, because why would someone say it other then to get a rise out of someone. Not proficient on my part I know, but heck, I'm human. No more of those please, as a public request.

[aberrant_unc]

How many major tournaments have you played the 4 squads of 20 men list in? How did you do? I can't imagine that list would do very well against experienced players. It has no mobility, no range, very little anti-tank, and just has so many bad matchups (including other chaos lists) that I can't imagine it doing well.

[Corpse.]

I do fairly well, mostly due to people over-specialising their lists with nob bikers, terminator/oblit/lash, typical SM bike list and so on. Having their weapons that pass my armor being roughly 50% less effective is a major blow to anti PA lists. I get there within 3 turns and the final turns its a slaughterhouse. Often I get the melee on 2nd turn, and first turn shock with raptors normally stops a major section of firepower on its own. Otherwise no raptors, its second turn charge, and when they're in transports thats the less rifles aimed at me, and with their hard hitting weapons being less effective... You can see where that's going.

 

Sorry for the long time to respond, I forgot to check back in here, heh.

 

I dont play tourniments, local shop doesnt host many and I have to drive 6+ hours to reach the closest one, and oddly enough I cant leave for 2 days straight with a 6 days a week home buisness to help run. (+ all the damn side jobs people lay on my lap, hah~) Economical times, bah!

 

Also, I dont hog or bog with this army, I just go straight for the enemy asap. Lash makes up for what run doesnt give me, so I may as well be inside rhinos with all 40-60-80 models. Thats the kicker right there....

[aberrant_unc]

Also, I dont hog or bog with this army, I just go straight for the enemy asap. Lash makes up for what run doesnt give me, so I may as well be inside rhinos with all 40-60-80 models. Thats the kicker right there....

 

Only you are a lot easier to kill than guys in a rhino. It isn't easy to hide your 20 guys in cover as you footslog unless you are playing cities of death or something.

 

Also, with such large squads, doesn't whatever they charge just die immediately? Then you are sitting in the open on your opponent's next turn ready to be shot up.

 

How do you get a second turn charge without raptors? Just lucky dice on run and lash?