The Emperor

[Wulfkry]

Hey guys, while i was in class and busy day dreaming about 40k i started debating this topic in my head. Could the big E have been a better father or guiding figure for the primarchs. His dealings with some of the primarchs leave much to be desired.

 

The first case i rememberd is Angron. From what i remember after the big E found Angron he basically told Angron to come away with him and not to bother with this silly spartacus like revolution he kicked off. After Angron refused and prepared to die with his warriors, E has hiim teleported out as his "brothers and sisters" slaughtered. If i remember right Angron comes back later and lays waste to the planet.(not to sure on that) We see in the Tales of Heresy book that Angron is extremely scarred emotionally and mentally from this incident. We also see a bit of the first seeds of resentment towards the Emp. I believe there is another thread in this forum that debates how the emperor could have handled this situation. Granted that there is a galaxy wide campaign going on but it seems to me at least that the emperor should have had more compassion towards his son. The emp is obviously the most powerful psychic around couldnt he see how damaged Angron was by the world he landed on and find a more amiable solution, which would have perhaps kept angron from swaying to chaos.

 

Night Haunter- ok obviously from their first meeting the E had to have known that there is definately something wrong with this boy. If lexicanum is correct NH tried to claw his own eyes out at the sight of the emp as a overwhelming vision took hold of him. That is not normal behavior even for a primarch. I must wonder if the E is such great psychic how could he not see that this primarch this son... was schizophrenic and profoundly disturbed and plauged by these visions. The big E probably should have kept NH closer to him or at least sent him to therapy =p. I must also ask if the E had any idea i mean any of what kind of world Nostramo was before Nh arrived and did his batman thing. If he did see the problems that lay inherent within this society then he should have done something to reform the society as a whole.

 

It would seem that most if not all of the primarchs that revolted against the emperor seemed to have some very big character flaws that perhaps the E put down as boys will be boys? The 2 examples listed above are obviously the more extreme of the 18 known primarchs, but it can be theorized that if the E had told Horus about why he quit the crusade and of the inherent dangers in the warp the whole heresy could have been avoided. Im not even sure as to what im really trying to bring up in this post here, but jsut thought felt i had to throw this up on the forums, i hope it is of some interest to the members of the b&c.

[jipimus]

My understanding of it is that every primarchs personality was a different facet of the Emperors, and that why none of them are the same. I also believe that the emperer had a big part to play in where the primarchs all ended up when the pods where scattered by the warp which I also think he planned, which led to the surroundings and local populations bringing the character flaws out in the primarchs which would best serve the emperer on his crusade although somewhere along the way it went a bit awry!

[Octavulg]

The Emperor is a lousy parent/leader. He's big on "do what I say because I say it", expects people to drop everything and follow him just because he says so, and does not brook contradiction.

 

There's also Magnus, Mortarion and Lorgar. If he'd put a bit more thought into his handling of the Primarchs, things likely would have worked out better.

[Hazard]

Emperor is a BUSY parent. The primarchs can look after them selfes. The goos ones that is, not losers like Angry and Curze. Emperor plots for thousands of years in advance and leads humanity on the path, wasting time babysitting demigods is something he can do without.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Emperor may be a bad parent, but you'd expect demi-god super-beings to be able to take care of themselves, regardless of their emotional maturity,

[Sons of Horus]

the emperor isn't a great parent or leader for that matter. he never explains things to his followers which ends up making them think that there's no valid reason in the first place. look at how trashed humanity is now ;) you know exactly who to blame it on ^_^

[Octavulg]

Emperor is a BUSY parent. The primarchs can look after them selfes. The goos ones that is, not losers like Angry and Curze. Emperor plots for thousands of years in advance and leads humanity on the path, wasting time babysitting demigods is something he can do without.

 

Then he shouldn't have created said demigods and put them in charge of large chunks of his armies, including forcibly drafting them into such duties when necessary, should he? Nor should he have put them in command of large armies without fully understanding how their time apart from him had shaped them.

 

Also, Angron lead a massive slave-revolt and Curze kept an entire planet in line through fear. Losers is at best an exaggeration.

 

The Emperor may be a bad parent, but you'd expect demi-god super-beings to be able to take care of themselves, regardless of their emotional maturity,

 

They can, and do. Problems seem to arise when they have to start doing things for the Emperor because he says so - i.e. their choices are removed from the equation.

[Castus Xanthis]

There was Leman Russ too, he punched his dad and the emperor knocked him out for a month. The Emperor was a horrible parent.

[Logain the Ranger]

There was Leman Russ too, he punched his dad and the emperor knocked him out for a month. The Emperor was a horrible parent.

 

Ah, but that didn't scar Russ. It gave him respect for his dad.

[Tutteman]

There was Leman Russ too, he punched his dad and the emperor knocked him out for a month. The Emperor was a horrible parent.

 

Now THAT is parenting :P

[Hazard]

Emperor is a BUSY parent. The primarchs can look after them selfes. The goos ones that is, not losers like Angry and Curze. Emperor plots for thousands of years in advance and leads humanity on the path, wasting time babysitting demigods is something he can do without.

 

Then he shouldn't have created said demigods and put them in charge of large chunks of his armies, including forcibly drafting them into such duties when necessary, should he? Nor should he have put them in command of large armies without fully understanding how their time apart from him had shaped them.

 

Also, Angron lead a massive slave-revolt and Curze kept an entire planet in line through fear. Losers is at best an exaggeration.

 

The Emperor may be a bad parent, but you'd expect demi-god super-beings to be able to take care of themselves, regardless of their emotional maturity,

 

They can, and do. Problems seem to arise when they have to start doing things for the Emperor because he says so - i.e. their choices are removed from the equation.

 

Angron and Curze ride the Primarch short bus, period. Of all primarchs they performed the worst on their planets and their crusade victory tallies are nothing to brag about. So it's the master crafted, turbo charged short bus for them.

 

Also the Emperor is a basicaly a god, his schemes are so complex few mortal minds could make any thing of them. Malcador the Sigilite could - and Emperor shared some of his plans with him. Emperor was too busy and possesed inteligence simply beyond that of humans, and dare I say, Primarchs. There is no reason for him to waste his percious time explaining stuff you will never ever understand.

I know I wouldn't waste my time explaining the details of my bachelor thesis to my 5 year old cousin.

 

What people miss out when they say "Emperor is a bad leader he never explains" is that Emperor owes no explanation to anyone and when you do as the man told things end up alright. In the army you dont question orders and Emperor ran Imperium just like that - as a warmachine. Initiatives fail, Emperors words dont.

[Octavulg]

Angron and Curze ride the Primarch short bus, period. Of all primarchs they performed the worst on their planets and their crusade victory tallies are nothing to brag about. So it's the master crafted, turbo charged short bus for them.

 

Oh? Perturabo achieved his apex as the second-in-command to a dictator. Magnus was a scholar.

 

I'd say Angron's at least tied with them, and Curze is outright past them. Both had a planetary effect...

 

Being top gladiator on a planet and leading a pretty damn successful slave revolt is still nothing to sneer at. Angron had far less to work with than most Primarchs. Ditto Curze. Hell, Curze is Jonson without the order of knights. Saying they made less of themselves is like giving me fifty bucks, some other guy ten bucks, and congratulating me if I bring you back sixty and the other guy brings you back fifty-five. The circumstances weren't balanced to start with.

 

Also the Emperor is a basicaly a god, his schemes are so complex few mortal minds could make any thing of them. Malcador the Sigilite could - and Emperor shared some of his plans with him. Emperor was too busy and possesed inteligence simply beyond that of humans, and dare I say, Primarchs. There is no reason for him to waste his percious time explaining stuff you will never ever understand.

 

That's a cop-out for GW to defend lousy writing, and you know it. :wub:

 

I know I wouldn't waste my time explaining the details of my bachelor thesis to my 5 year old cousin.

 

Even if your thesis relied on his cooperation and assistance? Which the Emperor's plans seem to, since he won't let them stay on their 'home' planets when they ask to?

 

What people miss out when they say "Emperor is a bad leader he never explains" is that Emperor owes no explanation to anyone and when you do as the man told things end up alright. In the army you dont question orders and Emperor ran Imperium just like that - as a warmachine. Initiatives fail, Emperors words dont.

 

Why, precisely, does the Emperor owe no one an explanation? I know why he thinks he doesn't, but that's an opinion, not a fact. It's a fictional opinion, at that. ;)

 

The Emperor's a bad leader because he never explains things to people and expects them to obey his orders unquestioningly when he has given them little reason to trust him or his guidance. He treats them all like Horus, and they're not. They don't know him, many have little reason to trust him, some even hate him with varying degrees of justification. They have not known him very long. In short, they do not see any reason to trust his instincts and beliefs above their own - so they don't.

 

Furthermore, the relationship between the Emperor and his Primarchs is not one of general to inferiors. It is also one of parent to children. They are his sons, and they know it - regardless of whether he thinks he owes them any explanation, they'll think he does.

 

Plus, if some guy showed up, press-ganged me into service as an interstellar general and insisted I conquer worlds in his name, I'd expect at least a few questions answered when he told me to do stuff - because his morals and sanity were clearly suspect. :P

[Fausto2071]

Also the Emperor is a basicaly a god, his schemes are so complex few mortal minds could make any thing of them. Malcador the Sigilite could - and Emperor shared some of his plans with him. Emperor was too busy and possesed inteligence simply beyond that of humans, and dare I say, Primarchs. There is no reason for him to waste his percious time explaining stuff you will never ever understand.

 

That's a cop-out for GW to defend lousy writing, and you know it. :P

 

 

 

agreed!

[Notlage]

Furthermore, the relationship between the Emperor and his Primarchs is not one of general to inferiors. It is also one of parent to children. They are his sons, and they know it - regardless of whether he thinks he owes them any explanation, they'll think he does.

 

Plus, if some guy showed up, press-ganged me into service as an interstellar general and insisted I conquer worlds in his name, I'd expect at least a few questions answered when he told me to do stuff - because his morals and sanity were clearly suspect. :P

 

I understand you are fully entrenched in your position, but keep in mind that a great deal of the primarch (neigh on half) didn't feel they were owed an explanation. See, it isn't just some dude showing up, it's some dude the grew you in the lab. Oh, and while you were busy growing up into being the most superior being on your planet, this dude shows up one day and makes you feel tiny. This dude has to remind people NOT to worship him as a god...this isn't Lenny getting off his shift working the shake machine at Arby's and saying 'hey, lets storm the pentagon together".

 

The book Mechanicus shows that his forsight, planning, and cunning are rivaled only by Tzeneetch, and he sets plans in motion for the betterment of the human race. It is actually a cop out to play down his prowess/place in the universe, and if the big E really wants something to happen with only him and Mal knowing, then it is probably for a reason and he should be trusted.

[Hazard]

Being top gladiator on a planet and leading a pretty damn successful slave revolt is still nothing to sneer at.

 

For a man. For a demigod, who, going by his(admitedly far more brilliant) brothers, should whoop Dark Eldar raiding parties, ancient Necron constructs and great chaos beasts with minimal tools that is hardly anything impressive. What could possibly give a Primarch a challnge in some dusty arena?

 

Ditto Curze. Hell, Curze is Jonson without the order of knights. Saying they made less of themselves is like giving me fifty bucks, some other guy ten bucks, and congratulating me if I bring you back sixty and the other guy brings you back fifty-five. The circumstances weren't balanced to start with.

 

Jonson spent his first 10 years in a chaos infested forrest of a death world, you cant ask for a lousier start... ;) If the Order never existed on Callidan the Lion would create the order. He was a great leader and could rally people around him, unlike Angry and Curzy.

Curze did have less, but less in talent.

 

 

That's a cop-out for GW to defend lousy writing, and you know it.

 

That's the way I see it. It's completely reasonable to assume that a super being with dozens of milenia of experience is going to think in categories that someone who is not his equal would not understand.

 

Even if your thesis relied on his cooperation and assistance? Which the Emperor's plans seem to, since he won't let them stay on their 'home' planets when they ask to?

 

Emperor didn't ask too much of the Primarchs come to think of it... The were fighting even without their genetic fathers the primarchs. So, in paralell I would not start explaining my thesis to the cousin if his assistance is just to bring me a pen a stop making funny noises(Magnus).

 

Why, precisely, does the Emperor owe no one an explanation? I know why he thinks he doesn't, but that's an opinion, not a fact. It's a fictional opinion, at that. tongue.gif

 

Why would he? You dont question your orders.

 

The Emperor's a bad leader because he never explains things to people and expects them to obey his orders unquestioningly when he has given them little reason to trust him or his guidance. He treats them all like Horus, and they're not. They don't know him, many have little reason to trust him, some even hate him with varying degrees of justification. They have not known him very long. In short, they do not see any reason to trust his instincts and beliefs above their own - so they don't.

 

Did Alexander the great go about explaining his plans to everu officer in his army? Did Genhis Khan do that? Napoleon? No. They all had brilliant luetenats but these men, no matter how great were of a different order of magnitude. Leaders, unless we are talking about a local alcoholics anonymous group, don't explain, they lead.

 

If E-man would treat everyone like Horus he would have 18 warmasters. And hey a lot of the Primarchs recognised who Emperor is and swore fealty: Lion, Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Dorn, Guilleman, the red headed stepchild Magnus, Lorgar...

 

Furthermore, the relationship between the Emperor and his Primarchs is not one of general to inferiors. It is also one of parent to children. They are his sons, and they know it - regardless of whether he thinks he owes them any explanation, they'll think he does.

 

That would be a no...

Did emperor create the Primarchs out of need to procreate? :wub: Do people have children in order to help them conquer the galaxy? :P

 

Emperor was their commander first and foremost. Tools first, sons second(if that).

 

Plus, if some guy showed up, press-ganged me into service as an interstellar general and insisted I conquer worlds in his name, I'd expect at least a few questions answered when he told me to do stuff - because his morals and sanity were clearly suspect. tongue.gif

 

You know whats moral? What Emperor tells you is.

 

If someone showed up, somehow made me concede that he is my all round superior(that would be hard as I am one paranoid bastard), told me of a lofty goal and gave me a chance to help I wouldnt complain or ask questions much. Same with primarchs - every one except the lobotomised brawler and Jack the ripper wanabe conceded Emperors supremacy and agreed that for mankind to ascend to it's birthright to rule among the stars is a lofty goal.

[Octavulg]

The book Mechanicus shows that his forsight, planning, and cunning are rivaled only by Tzeneetch, and he sets plans in motion for the betterment of the human race. It is actually a cop out to play down his prowess/place in the universe, and if the big E really wants something to happen with only him and Mal knowing, then it is probably for a reason and he should be trusted.

 

So he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen or is not as good as people evidently think he is?

 

Gotta be one or the other.

 

* * *

 

For a man. For a demigod, who, going by his(admitedly far more brilliant) brothers, should whoop Dark Eldar raiding parties, ancient Necron constructs and great chaos beasts with minimal tools that is hardly anything impressive. What could possibly give a Primarch a challnge in some dusty arena?

 

The Emperor almost got taken down by an Ork once. Also, he was a kid at the time, so it's a little more even.

 

And the slave revolt is more impressive than the gladiatoring. They lasted several years in incredibly hostile countryside regularly attacked by larger and better equipped armies, while every warrior was at least slightly crazy. That's damned impressive from almost any direction.

 

Certainly beats Perturabo and Magnus. :blush:

 

Jonson spent his first 10 years in a chaos infested forrest of a death world, you cant ask for a lousier start... blink.gif If the Order never existed on Callidan the Lion would create the order. He was a great leader and could rally people around him, unlike Angry and Curzy.

Curze did have less, but less in talent.

 

Bull. Jonson has the leadership skills of a grapefruit. Luther's the one who brings the various knightly orders together. Hell, Jonson can't keep his entire legion loyal, which both Curze and Angron managed.

 

Hardly impressive.

 

Trust me, without Luther, Jonson either dies in the forest or, at best, becomes a sort-of OK knight. Maybe he gets civilized and unites the planet through warfare, or becomes some kind of Chaos Beast-Lord. But he doesn't form the Order.

 

That's the way I see it. It's completely reasonable to assume that a super being with dozens of milenia of experience is going to think in categories that someone who is not his equal would not understand.

 

It is, except the Emperor keeps making mistakes that someone who can plan so very well should not.

 

Forcibly press-ganging your son into service and leaving the army he was willing to die with to die when you have the capability to save them? Mistake.

 

Refusing to explain the dangers of sorcery to your son who is evidently almost as powerful as you and has been learning such things for years? Mistake.

 

Not noticing your son's crazy depressive prophetic visions? Mistake.

 

Not explaining to your religious fanatic son the dangers of Chaos when you know it seeks worshippers? Mistake.

 

Assuming people who are used to believing that their own abilities are godly will respect your natural superiority when they barely know you, are in a position to see your flaws, and have virtually no experience with you? Mistake.

 

Saying he's so much smarter than everyone else just makes his mistakes more glaring.

 

Hell, if he's so awesome, why isn't the Imperium still in the 'Dark Age' of Technology? You'd think a competent boy like that could keep things together, at least on Earth.

 

Emperor didn't ask too much of the Primarchs come to think of it... The were fighting even without their genetic fathers the primarchs. So, in paralell I would not start explaining my thesis to the cousin if his assistance is just to bring me a pen a stop making funny noises(Magnus).

 

No, they weren't fighting.

 

Jonson, Guilliman, Fulgrim, Corax, Jaghatai, Night Haunter, Sanguinius, Lorgar, Magnus and Vulkan were all, to a greater or lesser extent, at peace.

 

Why would he? You dont question your orders.

 

I'm not part of a quest to reunite the Imperium of Man. More to the point, I'm not the general's son.

 

Did Alexander the great go about explaining his plans to everu officer in his army? Did Genhis Khan do that? Napoleon? No. They all had brilliant luetenats but these men, no matter how great were of a different order of magnitude. Leaders, unless we are talking about a local alcoholics anonymous group, don't explain, they lead.

 

Alexander, Khan and Napoleon had all won their men's respect through various means. It's pretty clear the Emperor hadn't done that.

 

Also, Alexander and Napoleon, IIRC, would explain things to their close friends and companions. Dunno about Genghis.

 

If E-man would treat everyone like Horus he would have 18 warmasters. And hey a lot of the Primarchs recognised who Emperor is and swore fealty: Lion, Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Dorn, Guilleman, the red headed stepchild Magnus, Lorgar...

 

Not what I meant. He assumed that, like Horus, the other Primarchs trusted him, respected him, and were completely loyal to him. They were not, and he should have realized it.

 

That would be a no...

Did emperor create the Primarchs out of need to procreate? smile.gif Do people have children in order to help them conquer the galaxy? smile.gif

 

When the tool turns around and hurts its user, whose fault is it?

 

Emperor was their commander first and foremost. Tools first, sons second(if that).

 

Oh, that's a point of view guaranteed to engender loyalty.

 

You know whats moral? What Emperor tells you is.

 

No. Morality doesn't work that way. Sorry.

 

Might have been if he'd raised them all. But he didn't. So he has to tell them why he's right at least a few times. C'est la vie.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

wow, i am SO not touching this one....

 

WLK

[Wulfkry]

oh cmon Kieran a fellow wolf and albeit a Wolf Lord should make his voice(or howl) heard in this touchy topic i raised.

[xXwarsmithXx]

I would say that the emperor was a fairly poor parent overall. However, he did care for his sons enough to give them presents (legions) . Also, having that many superhuman children that all have extremely strong wills and different directions that they are going would be very taxing. Still, bad parenting has no excuses except the logical one, he was a bad parent that loved his children.

[Hobo Willie]

WLK's not going to agree with you, Wulfkry.

 

As for bad parenting, I'm gonna have to say He was a bad parent, as He did little to no parenting/guiding for most (none in Alpharius' case). Not that any of that excuses what most of them did. Sure, you can argue that since most were adults when found, that he shouldn't have had to, however, he should have worked more to gain their trust outside of the instant bond they all felt with each other. Adults are more set in their ways than children.

 

As for Konrad Curze being a loser, pshaw! That "loser" had such an efficient world that the Emperor marveled at Nostramo and its society when he first came in contact with Curze. That "loser" put Dorn down in a fight quickly (when other Primarchs had brawled, such as say the Lion and Russ, they fought each other to a standstill for days). Curze also did a lot of backtracking, enforcing the Imperium's rule as well as front line duties, so I doubt he would have had a huge victory tally, at least in comparison to Horus or Russ or the Lion. As far as I know, though, other than saying the aforementioned Primarchs had a lot of victories, there aren't any mention of the other 15 Legions in terms of Victory counts. Other than Lorgar being too slow in bringing worlds to compliance.

 

Also, Primarchs such as Russ, the Lion, Curze, and Angron had huge disadvantages as they weren't (at least initially) raised by people, and Curze wasn't ever given any guidance. Russ eventually integrated himself into society, as did the Lion, but Angron was operated on with "psyhco-surgery," which who knows what that did to him versus if he'd been allowed a more steady environment like Guilliman and the like.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@hobo willie, how did you know!?!? thats uncanny.

 

but i'll go against my earlier non-involvement stance and say a few brief things....

1) i dont think the emperor was a great parent.

2) he didnt cast his children out and say "sink or swim". as certain sources point to, Collected Visions, he made an effort with many of the primarchs. he warned magnus about the warp, admired cruze's efforts on nostramo, won russ's loyalty. that is not to say he didnt have failures, such as he actions with angron. i see his detachment from alpharius as a mistake, but a nesecary one as he was deep at work in the Imperial Dungeons. He thought Horus was trustworthy, so saw no harm in leaving Horus in control of Alpharius's imperial introduction.

3) i think many of the issues that made the primarchs great, such as angron's fury, magnus's skill, mortarion's toughness, were all in place by the time the emperor arrived. he couldnt have seen the inner flaws of his children, so accepted them for what they were. (with the exception of magnus, who he warned away from his studies)

 

so while he wasnt great, he was a good enough parent to believe in his children's ability to overcome their personal flaws. this is his greatest mistake IMO.

 

WLK

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Hell, if he's so awesome, why isn't the Imperium still in the 'Dark Age' of Technology? You'd think a competent boy like that could keep things together, at least on Earth.

 

Well, the Iron Men 'incident' happened, pushing Humanity into the Age of Strife.

 

Did emperor create the Primarchs out of need to procreate? :( Do people have children in order to help them conquer the galaxy? :)

 

I . . . oh. I think a post in the "You know you've taken 40k too far if" thread is in order. :P :P

[Gv0zD]

Errr..... Oh, baby primarchs want their Daddy take care of them..... Baby Angron wants to play with his freinds a little more, but Daddy take him away to save humanity.... :(

 

What I really mean is that the discussion of bad or good daddy can refer to meatbags like humans, while The Emperor and Primarchs are slightly more complicated beings (I didn't say godlike). The Emperor's quest was to unite the humanity and to protect it from the ruinous powers at the same time. As E was the allmighty superhuman, he still needed generals to lead the crusade all over the galaxy, and this was the role and the reason for primarchs' existance. They were to achieve a great objective, and in achiving it there was no room for emotions. Imagine yourselves on your work - there can be any conditions, your boss might be a jerk, or your job is boring and routine, but you have to do this job, as it provides you with means to existance. No emotions are applied. And now imagine the primarchs - their job is a lot more complicated and difficult, and dangerous. So I don't think that The Emperor had to be a good daddy at all, he had to be a good leader or humanity, while primarch had to be effective generals, fighting for humanity. :)

[Hazard]

The Emperor almost got taken down by an Ork once. Also, he was a kid at the time, so it's a little more even.

 

Or did he? The exact quote is:

 

At another battle, Horus repaid this debt when he hacked the arm off a frenzied Ork as it tried to choke the life out of the Emperor.

 

Doesnt seem like almost taken down doesnt it? :)

 

And the slave revolt is more impressive than the gladiatoring. They lasted several years in incredibly hostile countryside regularly attacked by larger and better equipped armies, while every warrior was at least slightly crazy. That's damned impressive from almost any direction.

 

Doesnt come close to living in a toxic waste dump or a chaos infested death world. Holding back enemy forces with an army of trained killers whie possesing intelligence and other gifts far beyond anyone on the planet? Bleh. Lion, Dorn, Horus or any other worthy primarch would have the planet under his heel, prosperous and ready to be brought into compliance with the Creed

 

Bull. Jonson has the leadership skills of a grapefruit. Luther's the one who brings the various knightly orders together. Hell, Jonson can't keep his entire legion loyal, which both Curze and Angron managed.

 

Read the Descent Of Angels. It is mentioned there that Lion inspires men. Basicaly there is nothing more to discuss - fluff says Lion is a leader, what you say is unimportant. And Luther was second in all things to the Lion, be it oratory or combat.

 

Angron was never able to keep his legion whole - who do you think he slaughtered on Istvaan? A good half of his own sons!

 

And it's not like all Night Lords just went and turned to Chaos.

 

Trust me, without Luther, Jonson either dies in the forest or, at best, becomes a sort-of OK knight. Maybe he gets civilized and unites the planet through warfare, or becomes some kind of Chaos Beast-Lord. But he doesn't form the Order.

 

That is simply stupid.

 

There is no logic in assuming a fully grown Primarch would curl up and die in a forrest where he survived for 10 years as an infant.

 

There is no logic in assuming the planets most powerfull warrior and a top 3 fighter among Primarchs would be an "ok knight".

 

There is no logic in assuming after slaughtering countless chaos creations the Lion would embrace chaos.

 

Order was a tool readily avalable but the Lion could fashion his tools just as well. Order was there, if it wasnt the Lion would create it.

 

It is, except the Emperor keeps making mistakes that someone who can plan so very well should not.

 

Forcibly press-ganging your son into service and leaving the army he was willing to die with to die when you have the capability to save them? Mistake.

 

Refusing to explain the dangers of sorcery to your son who is evidently almost as powerful as you and has been learning such things for years? Mistake.

 

Not noticing your son's crazy depressive prophetic visions? Mistake.

 

Not explaining to your religious fanatic son the dangers of Chaos when you know it seeks worshippers? Mistake.

 

Assuming people who are used to believing that their own abilities are godly will respect your natural superiority when they barely know you, are in a position to see your flaws, and have virtually no experience with you? Mistake.

 

Saying he's so much smarter than everyone else just makes his mistakes more glaring.

 

Hell, if he's so awesome, why isn't the Imperium still in the 'Dark Age' of Technology? You'd think a competent boy like that could keep things together, at least on Earth.

 

Those mistakes with the exception of Horus heresy are mild inconveniences that only slightly delay the end goal.

 

Lobotomised rabble not fit to be included in the Legions - for all intents and purposes they are already dead. Now enhancing those guys past their normal potential and giving them weapons they could never dream of, now THAT would be a huuuuuuuge mistake.

 

There is no reason to believe that Magnus was any where near the Big E in power or that he could understand the implication of warp craft abuse.

 

All primarchs had prophetic visions, some cheerfull some not. The fact that Curze couldnt keep his asnity condemns him to the short bus.

 

A stern "just :cussing dont!" should have been enough. The more people know of Chaos Gods the more power they have.

 

Emperor didnt asume anything. Overwhelimng majority of Primarchs conceded the the E-man is the pinnacle of creation and the superior. Only the short bus buddies didnt, but hey - they are the worst primarchs anyway.

 

The Emperor was up and about when humanity reached the Golden Age and it would be foolish to assume it was without his guidance. In fact before the golden throne humanity was recovering technology. Not to mention that E-man him self was quite skilled in biology and mechanics at the very least.

Humanity is in the dark age exactly because the Emperor is absent.

 

No, they weren't fighting.

 

The Legions were crusading before being reunited with the Primarchs and would continue to do so, less effectively but they would non the less. You are crazy if you think the legions just sat on their hands crying for daddy without their Primarchs.

 

Alexander, Khan and Napoleon had all won their men's respect through various means. It's pretty clear the Emperor hadn't done that.

 

Also, Alexander and Napoleon, IIRC, would explain things to their close friends and companions. Dunno about Genghis.

 

Friends not luetenants. Who is fit to be friend to Emperor himself? Who is Emperors equal? No one.

 

When the tool turns around and hurts its user, whose fault is it?

 

Let's make an example: you have a hatchet, somebody grabs that very hatchet and chops you to bits. Would you concede to that being your fault?

 

No. Morality doesn't work that way. Sorry.

 

Might have been if he'd raised them all. But he didn't. So he has to tell them why he's right at least a few times. C'est la vie.

 

Oh so you can tell what morality is and how it works? :D Morality is subjective at best if such a thing even exists at all.

 

Emperor was a brilliant leader, the ultimate general - if you do as he says and you will win. You dont and you will bring death and damnation upon yourself.

[Gv0zD]

Not explaining to your religious fanatic son the dangers of Chaos when you know it seeks worshippers? Mistake.

 

The more people know of Chaos Gods the more power they have.

 

The Emperor told Lorgar not to worship him. The Emperor prohibited any cults within the Imperium, as well as any religion. Any cult, worshipping a god, is the potential prey to the Chaos. Even the cults, that were meant to worship the Emperor, in fact were corrupted by Chaos, as it can blur your mind and convicnce that Tzeench is that very Emperor you worship. No mistake was made. The Emperor tried to protect Lorgar from himself.

 

And regarding the great generals of the past, I doubt they shared their actual plans with their companions and even friends. The *REAL* concept or vision of what they did was only within their heads, their companions and friends might not understand it, or worse - misunderstand, thus increasing the risk of failure.