The Emperor

[Lord_Caerolion]

Doesnt seem like almost taken down doesnt it? :P

Actually, if he needed Horus to kill the Warboss for him, it implies that the Emperor wasn't in a position to do it himself. Therefore, about to be choked to death by said warboss.

 

Doesnt come close to living in a toxic waste dump or a chaos infested death world. Holding back enemy forces with an army of trained killers whie possesing intelligence and other gifts far beyond anyone on the planet? Bleh. Lion, Dorn, Horus or any other worthy primarch would have the planet under his heel, prosperous and ready to be brought into compliance with the Creed

So Corax, a Loyalist Primarch who needed the Emperors help to capture his own homeworld is weak as well? Despite rising from bloody nothing, to defeating technological geniuses? Angron fought with what he had, and with vastly less numbers, managed to put up a fight against an incredibly more numerous army, with much, much higher technology. Even Horus can't win every fight armed with only swords and rags, against tanks and guns. Angron can't be everywhere.

 

Angron was never able to keep his legion whole - who do you think he slaughtered on Istvaan? A good half of his own sons!

Right, so Horus was a weak Primarch too, with no grasp of tactics? Great coming up with your own figures, and making a straw-man from them!

 

And it's not like all Night Lords just went and turned to Chaos.

Just like it's not Curze's fault the Legion got steadily filled with criminals again, the criminals the Imperial Governor should have damn well kept eliminated! Also, depending on source, Night Lords only use Chaos as a tool, they don't worship it.

 

There is no logic in assuming a fully grown Primarch would curl up and die in a forrest where he survived for 10 years as an infant.

Once again, great straw-man. Nowhere did he say "curl up and die", he merely considered the possibility that the Lion would get killed by one of the massive monsters that he fought against with no tools whatsoever.

 

There is no logic in assuming after slaughtering countless chaos creations the Lion would embrace chaos.

Because as we all know, fighting against Chaos certainly prevents you joining it.

 

 

There is no reason to believe that Magnus was any where near the Big E in power or that he could understand the implication of warp craft abuse.

So just because there's the possibility that he won't understand, you shouldn't even try? Great logic there...

 

All primarchs had prophetic visions, some cheerfull some not. The fact that Curze couldnt keep his asnity condemns him to the short bus.

Actually, most didn't. The only ones that did were Curze, Sanguinius and Magnus. 3 out of 20 does not equal all. Lastly, when you have your death spelled out in tarot cards, in the exact same configuration, every single night, no matter how the cards/who shuffles the cards, you'd be slightly unhinged. Combined with the fact that so far, every single one of your visions has come true, no matter how hard you tried to prevent it, that little bit more unhinged. Curze was an untrained psyker, something incredibly dangerous, yet the Emperor never took him aside to train his talents.

 

Also, as a relative of several people who have had depression, one of which committed suicide, the idea of "deal with it" in regards to mental health/depression is pretty offensive. You see, the thing about depression is it isn't logical, it can't just be explained away by yourself. I'd suggest actually getting an understanding of mental problems before you instantly dismiss those who suffer from them to "the short bus".

 

A stern "just :cussing dont!" should have been enough. The more people know of Chaos Gods the more power they have.

And as Horus Rising shows, as well as what happened to Lorgar, denial sure works a hell of a lot better, doesn't it? The fact that Lorgar fell is a slight hint that perhaps something should have been done to prevent it.

 

Emperor didnt asume anything. Overwhelimng majority of Primarchs conceded the the E-man is the pinnacle of creation and the superior. Only the short bus buddies didnt, but hey - they are the worst primarchs anyway.

Wow... the Emperor-love is sickeningly strong here. Plus, I love your circular logic: "The worst Primarchs suck because they're the worst Primarchs, because they're the worst Primarchs".

 

 

The Emperor was up and about when humanity reached the Golden Age and it would be foolish to assume it was without his guidance. In fact before the golden throne humanity was recovering technology. Not to mention that E-man him self was quite skilled in biology and mechanics at the very least.

Humanity is in the dark age exactly because the Emperor is absent.

Uhh... except for the fact that the Emperor was on Terra at the time? He could have prevented it at any time, revealed himself before things got as bad as they did, but he chose not to.

 

Let's make an example: you have a hatchet, somebody grabs that very hatchet and chops you to bits. Would you concede to that being your fault?

Once more, great straw-man. That isn't the tool harming the user, thats someone else using the tool. As such, the analogy doesn't fit, even in the slightest. When the Primarchs turn because of how the Emperor has treated them, who's fault is that? Noone forced the Primarchs to fall, contrary to your given, flawed example, the Primarchs were steered towards falling, given their situations on their home planets, and their treatment by the Emperor afterwards. Would Angron have fallen if the Emperor helped his troops fight against their oppressors, like he did with Corax? Hell no! He would have been one of the most loyal! Would Curze have fallen if he were taught how to wield his psychic power (amongst other things)? Hell no! Would Magnus have fallen if the Emperor had shared his own psychic knowledge and warnings of sorcery? Hell no! Would Lorgar have fallen if the Emperor actually gradually turned his fanatically religious son away from religion, and warned him about Chaos? Hell no!

 

All of those Primarchs, and most of the others, turned because of how they were treated, most because of slights by the Emperor. The Primarchs, despite all their physical ability, are just human mentally, with all of our quirks and human mentalities. They aren't emotionless beings.

 

Oh so you can tell what morality is and how it works? :D Morality is subjective at best if such a thing even exists at all.

Oh, so the Emperor can tell what morality is and how it works?

 

Emperor was a brilliant leader, the ultimate general - if you do as he says and you will win. You dont and you will bring death and damnation upon yourself.

Tell that to Sanguinius, the guy who followed the Emperor in everything, and still died in battle. Tell that to Horus, the Primarch who utterly idolised the Emperor, yet still fell.

[Octavulg]

Errr..... Oh, baby primarchs want their Daddy take care of them..... Baby Angron wants to play with his freinds a little more, but Daddy take him away to save humanity.... tongue.gif

 

You know, I'm getting a little tired of everybody making snarky remarks about (admittedly fictional) events which would have broken them like twigs.

 

You ever see the people you know and fought beside for years annihilated due to the apathy of the man who now wants you to follow his orders? I haven't. But I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be a big fan of his if I did.

 

What I really mean is that the discussion of bad or good daddy can refer to meatbags like humans, while The Emperor and Primarchs are slightly more complicated beings (I didn't say godlike).

 

Actually, the tragedy is that while they're more competent in every other dimension, emotionally they all seem to be human (with the possible exception of the Emperor).

 

A lot of people seem to feel the Primarchs needed to follow the Emperor's orders because he created them. I must wonder how these people relate to their parents.

 

They have independent thought. They don't have to do a damned thing.

 

* * *

Doesnt seem like almost taken down doesnt it? rolleyes.gif

 

If the debt was repaid, the Emperor was in danger, no? Otherwise it wouldn't have been repaying a debt - because the Emperor wouldn't have needed the help at all.

 

Doesnt come close to living in a toxic waste dump or a chaos infested death world. Holding back enemy forces with an army of trained killers whie possesing intelligence and other gifts far beyond anyone on the planet?

 

You know, you keep going on about this intelligence thing, and I'm really not sure I buy it.

 

Also, army of trained individual killers who are completely unequipped (at first). A little impressive.

 

Bleh. Lion, Dorn, Horus or any other worthy primarch would have the planet under his heel, prosperous and ready to be brought into compliance with the Creed

 

Again - the Lion does not qualify as a worthy Primarch. The Lion got where he was because of Luther, no more, no less.

 

Read the Descent Of Angels. It is mentioned there that Lion inspires men. Basicaly there is nothing more to discuss - fluff says Lion is a leader, what you say is unimportant. And Luther was second in all things to the Lion, be it oratory or combat.

 

So Descent of Angels says that it was all the Lion, while the actual IA on the DA and the DA Codex say that it was Luther.

 

I'm taking official sources over badly written glorified fanfic retcon, thanks.

 

Luther's the one who finds the Lion and takes him in. He is the one who convinces the Order's leaders to launch the planet-wide Crusade. He's a lot more than Jonson's sidekick. He is arguably a lot more than Jonson. He was not second to the Lion in all things.

 

Angron was never able to keep his legion whole - who do you think he slaughtered on Istvaan? A good half of his own sons!

 

Half?

 

And it's not like all Night Lords just went and turned to Chaos.

 

Really...

 

They don't have any fluff about a purging, IIRC. So it does rather look like the vast majority of them did.

 

There is no logic in assuming a fully grown Primarch would curl up and die in a forrest where he survived for 10 years as an infant.

 

Well, there is since the group of knights that discovered him were about to attack him. Seeing as he'd be completely unarmed, and they'd have something vaguely resembling 40K modern tech, I think he'd be in trouble. Without Luther, he'd at minimum have been rather badly wounded...

 

There is no logic in assuming the planets most powerfull warrior and a top 3 fighter among Primarchs would be an "ok knight".

 

Sure there is. No Luther, he might rise to high position in the order, but there's no big crusade and his deeds likely aren't as amazing.

 

There is no logic in assuming after slaughtering countless chaos creations the Lion would embrace chaos.

 

I meant Lord of the Chaos Beasts, not Chaos Lord of the Beasts.

 

Order was a tool readily avalable but the Lion could fashion his tools just as well. Order was there, if it wasnt the Lion would create it.

 

No. He wouldn't at. Because he is not a good leader. He is an excellent strategist, but he's not a good leader.

 

Lobotomised rabble not fit to be included in the Legions - for all intents and purposes they are already dead. Now enhancing those guys past their normal potential and giving them weapons they could never dream of, now THAT would be a huuuuuuuge mistake.

 

Sure. So help 'em slaughter the slavers and leave 'em on the planet.

 

These are people who tortured, enslaved and mutilated one of your sons, who you are evidently not willing to leave behind. Logically, if he is this valuable, you should be at least a little irked at the people who did such damage to him (if only in a "get off my turf" sort of way). You have tons o' marines, tons of big guns on orbiting ships. Saving that army is not hard, and will likely ensure Angron's loyalty to you. Stealing him away in the night is a stupid course of action - he clearly feels far more strongly about that army than about your "Great Crusade". If you can't realize that, you are at the very least shortsighted.

 

And calling them lobotomised rabble when they took out three enemy armies seems a bit excessive. They're not lobotomized, and they're not rabble. Hyperbole, especially baseless hyperbole, doesn't help your case.

 

There is no reason to believe that Magnus was any where near the Big E in power or that he could understand the implication of warp craft abuse.

 

He broke the wards of the Imperial palace.

 

And if Magnus can't understand them (what was that about Angron being the smartest guy on his planet?) then no one anywhere can, and thus the Emperor's grand vision is forever doomed.

 

All primarchs had prophetic visions, some cheerfull some not. The fact that Curze couldnt keep his asnity condemns him to the short bus.

 

...Where the hell did you get that from? Furthermore, Curze's were, I believe, far more frequent and far less pleasant than others.

 

A stern "just :cussing dont!" should have been enough. The more people know of Chaos Gods the more power they have.

 

Fine.

 

Don't argue with me any more. Enough?

 

You have to have a pretty poor understanding of psychology to expect every single person to follow your orders.

 

Emperor didnt asume anything. Overwhelimng majority of Primarchs conceded the the E-man is the pinnacle of creation and the superior. Only the short bus buddies didnt, but hey - they are the worst primarchs anyway.

 

Worst depends on the standards, and as previously mentioned, most of the Primarchs you so cheerfully deride started out in a much worse situation than their brethren. With far less assistance, far less opportunity and far fewer resources, it is wholly unsurprising they performed worse.

 

The Emperor was up and about when humanity reached the Golden Age and it would be foolish to assume it was without his guidance. In fact before the golden throne humanity was recovering technology. Not to mention that E-man him self was quite skilled in biology and mechanics at the very least.

Humanity is in the dark age exactly because the Emperor is absent.

 

Really...

 

So what you're saying is he doesn't make perfect plans? That he is, in fact, not as clever as you (and he) seem to think he is? That he has, in fact, screwed up before?

 

The Legions were crusading before being reunited with the Primarchs and would continue to do so, less effectively but they would non the less. You are crazy if you think the legions just sat on their hands crying for daddy without their Primarchs.

 

Never said they did.

 

So what you're saying is that the Primarchs are evidently not necessary, but the Emperor dragoons them into service anyway?

 

The hell?

 

Friends not luetenants. Who is fit to be friend to Emperor himself? Who is Emperors equal? No one.

 

Really? He might think that, but I think the continued collapses of humanity in previous epochs and the failure of his Great Crusade makes it damned clear that he's not nearly as clever as he thinks he is.

 

Let's make an example: you have a hatchet, somebody grabs that very hatchet and chops you to bits. Would you concede to that being your fault?

 

If I left said hatchet lying around next to a homicidal maniac (Chaos), I'm gonna say at least some of the fault is mine.

 

Of course, it's a sentient hatchet, so I should have also told it to scream if the maniac touched it, but that's rather taxing the metaphor.

 

Oh so you can tell what morality is and how it works? biggrin.gif Morality is subjective at best if such a thing even exists at all.

 

You're the one going on about how morality was what the Emperor said it was...

 

If morality is subjective, then none of the Primarchs can really be judged.

 

Emperor was a brilliant leader, the ultimate general - if you do as he says and you will win. You dont and you will bring death and damnation upon yourself.

 

Really?

 

You assign him credit for the Golden Age of Humanity, meaning he must to some extent bear the burden for its fall. He can be assigned some of the blame for the Horus Heresy as well. If he is so brilliant, these things ought not to have happened. They did. There is a clear conclusion here. I invite you to find it.

[Gv0zD]

You know, I'm getting a little tired of everybody making snarky remarks about (admittedly fictional) events which would have broken them like twigs.

 

Sorry, no offense.

 

A lot of people seem to feel the Primarchs needed to follow the Emperor's orders because he created them.

 

I didn't say that the primarchs had to follow E because he created them. I said that their role in the life of humanity didn't allow them place their emotions prior to their duty.

 

I want to say that the primarch (no matter their relationship with E) had to protect humanity. Sanguinius was killed not because E sent him to be killed, he died becouse of his attitude to his duty, to humanity, to good. I think almost every man had misunderstandings with his parents in early age, but this doesn't allow you to do anything bad (evil). I would not go and kill my parents, and my brothers who support them, and I definitely would not go on a frenzy killing and destoying everything in my way. That's all. I should say that I never sympathized the Chaos and the heretics, I do not fully approve E in his actions toward the primarchs, but E is good after all, while Chaos, unfortunately, not.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Of all primarchs they performed the worst on their planets and their crusade victory tallies are nothing to brag about. So it's the master crafted, turbo charged short bus for them.

 

Also, where the hell are you getting your figures from? Last I heard, we haven't heard the victory tallies for the vast majority of Legions, so you can't say that Angrons and Curzes are "nothing to brag about", seeing as we don't know what they are, or most of the others. Inventing figures doesn't help your argument.

 

Also, as for "performing the worst", what about Corax? He didn't even get his world compliant! He was still struggling againt the old slavers when the Emperor arrived, going to bag him out? What about Dorn, the guy we know sweet crud-all about? What about Russ, the guy whose proven factual accomplishments consist of being adopted by wolves, adopted by a king, and spending the rest of his years drunk of his a$$? Vulkan, beat up some Dark Eldar, and made some good weapons? Fulgrim, learned how to recycle? Sanguinius, beat up some "rabble" mutants, to use the hyberbole you seem so fond of? Magnus, learned from some psychics?

 

Lets see the feats you seem to display as "great, heroic Primarch deeds".

The Lion, got some knights to agree with him, and beat up some beasts. Hey, you seem to assume Angron should be everywhere, why not Lion too?

Dorn, we know crud-all about him can't use him as an example. He just turns up in a space ship.

Horus, beat up some gangers, got taken when he was about 10. Never actually united his world.

 

Compared to this, we have Angron, who managed to survive an Eldar attack when he was a newborn baby, killing them, and then organise a massive slave rebellion against a foe vastly more numerous, incredibly well armed and armoured, and with actual supply lines. He, on the other hand, had soldiers that had probably never fired a gun in their life, no arms and armour beyond what they could steal, few men, and no supply lines to get food and reinforcements. For what he did, thats damn good.

Or we have Curze. The Primarch who raised himself, resisted the insanity that continually haunted him, and managed to get an entire damn Hive World to not even dare to go against his will, singlehandedly! Once rejoined with his Legion, he managed to establish such a reputation that any recidivists would instantly rejoin/pay all outstanding tithes, etc, at the mere possibility that the Night Lords, not even the Primarch, would arrive. He also pretty much killed Dorn, with his bare hands. Just because he understandably went crazy later is no excuse to call him weak. Read Lord of the Night, it gives some more insights into why he turned, and why he goes crazy.

 

I want to say that the primarch (no matter their relationship with E) had to protect humanity.

Since when did they have to? Do you have to go into the profession your parents want you to?

 

I think almost every man had misunderstandings with his parents in early age, but this doesn't allow you to do anything bad (evil). I would not go and kill my parents, and my brothers who support them, and I definitely would not go on a frenzy killing and destoying everything in my way. That's all.

Well, does anyone now have the stresses that Horus had? I severly doubt it. The leaving message to Horus from the Emperor can be summarized by this:

Ok son, you're now the Warmaster. I've worked for millennia to conquer the galaxy, and now you can finish the job. You have ultimate power over the entire Crusade. Keep your brothers from fighting each other and you, even though some of them hate each others guts, and some will hate that you're Warmaster. Even though you're Warmaster, don't be too quick to go to war, remember diplomacy. But don't be too lenient. And remember, you can't get caught up in anything, you have another 900 Crusade fleets all requiring your utmost attention. You need to worry about troop movements, supply lines, and political ties to the Mechanicum. Don't screw this up!

And remember, if you need help, you can't call me. I'll be off on Terra doing something I don't trust you enough to tell you about. Yes, I know that I've just given the most power anyone can be given, but I don't trust you enough to simply tell you what I'm doing. So if you have any problems, just remember that the Imperium depends on you not making any mistakes. See you!

 

Horus literally had the weight of the galaxy thrust onto his shoulders. Suddenly, he goes from only having to deal with his Expedition Fleet, to every single Expedition Fleet! He has to worry about how all of his brothers are acting, because they're his responsibility. If Angron gets annoyed, and ends up destroying an STC, its Horus the Tech-Priests will complain to, even if he's on the other side of the galaxy. Oh yeah, communications can also take years to reach their targets, so he has o take that into account as well.

[Octavulg]

Sorry, no offense.

 

If I get offended about this stuff, it's at least as much my fault as yours. ;)

 

'Tis only a game.

 

I didn't say that the primarchs had to follow E because he created them. I said that their role in the life of humanity didn't allow them place their emotions prior to their duty.

 

Ah, gotcha.

 

I want to say that the primarch (no matter their relationship with E) had to protect humanity. Sanguinius was killed not because E sent him to be killed, he died becouse of his attitude to his duty, to humanity, to good. I think almost every man had misunderstandings with his parents in early age, but this doesn't allow you to do anything bad (evil). I would not go and kill my parents, and my brothers who support them, and I definitely would not go on a frenzy killing and destoying everything in my way. That's all. I should say that I never sympathized the Chaos and the heretics, I do not fully approve E in his actions toward the primarchs, but E is good after all, while Chaos, unfortunately, not.

 

A very fair point. They are wrong to do what they did. They may have reasons for what they did, but 'tis still wrong.

[Hazard]

Actually, if he needed Horus to kill the Warboss for him, it implies that the Emperor wasn't in a position to do it himself. Therefore, about to be choked to death by said warboss.

 

You make too much leaps of faith and not enough logic. Ork gets his arm around E, gets that armed chopped of by Horus. That is it. Was Emperor in trouble? Not mentioned. Would a being that gave the Void Dragon a beatdown be in mortal danger due to ork choking him? Okhams' razors says no.

 

So Corax, a Loyalist Primarch who needed the Emperors help to capture his own homeworld is weak as well? Despite rising from bloody nothing, to defeating technological geniuses? Angron fought with what he had, and with vastly less numbers, managed to put up a fight against an incredibly more numerous army, with much, much higher technology. Even Horus can't win every fight armed with only swords and rags, against tanks and guns. Angron can't be everywhere.

 

Corax is better then Angry or Curze but I would say he is no Horus(or Lion, or Russ, or Guilleman etc.).

 

Again, mountains are the best defence grounds period. Tanks arent deployed mountains, for obvious reasons. Not ot mention we dont even know was that world in possesioin of technology like tanks. Holding out in mountains is no wonder, rather Tactics 101 to make use of terrain. And even that showed the limits of Angron - he couldn't come up with anything past that and settled for getting fragged.

 

Right, so Horus was a weak Primarch too, with no grasp of tactics? Great coming up with your own figures, and making a straw-man from them!

 

Huh? If the only thing by wich a Primarch would be judged is how much of his Legion stayed with them during the heresy the yes. Otherwise Horus is much much better.

 

 

Once again, great straw-man. Nowhere did he say "curl up and die", he merely considered the possibility that the Lion would get killed by one of the massive monsters that he fought against with no tools whatsoever.

 

It's clear as day that the probability was insignificant. So why even mention that? If an infant Lion didnt die a mature Lion wouldnt.

 

Actually, most didn't. The only ones that did were Curze, Sanguinius and Magnus. 3 out of 20 does not equal all. Lastly, when you have your death spelled out in tarot cards, in the exact same configuration, every single night, no matter how the cards/who shuffles the cards, you'd be slightly unhinged. Combined with the fact that so far, every single one of your visions has come true, no matter how hard you tried to prevent it, that little bit more unhinged. Curze was an untrained psyker, something incredibly dangerous, yet the Emperor never took him aside to train his talents.

 

Add Lorgar to that list. And BTW for all intents and purposes there are 18 Primarchs. The 2 missing ones will never be revealed by GW.

 

Curze knew he dies and went crazy... Sanguinius knew he dies and didnt. Sang > Curze.

 

Also, as a relative of several people who have had depression, one of which committed suicide, the idea of "deal with it" in regards to mental health/depression is pretty offensive. You see, the thing about depression is it isn't logical, it can't just be explained away by yourself. I'd suggest actually getting an understanding of mental problems before you instantly dismiss those who suffer from them to "the short bus".

 

Tough luck. A lot of people suffer from depression but very few off them selfes because of it. One could say it's what separates man from the boys... But I find such discussion way out of place on WH40K board.

 

Wow... the Emperor-love is sickeningly strong here. Plus, I love your circular logic: "The worst Primarchs suck because they're the worst Primarchs, because they're the worst Primarchs".

 

Logic isn't circular. I consider Angron, Curze and Alpharius - Omegon(but those are off topic here) to be the lesser of all Primarchs. Still far beyond just about anything out there, but not as good as some of the brothers. They simply were a creation less succesfull then say Horus. Not as clever and further componded by their experiences. Their superior brothers saw who the E-man is and thye did not. Senses not as keen, mind not as sharp.

 

Uhh... except for the fact that the Emperor was on Terra at the time? He could have prevented it at any time, revealed himself before things got as bad as they did, but he chose not to.

 

Since nothing is known of those events it's pointless to argue.

 

Once more, great straw-man. That isn't the tool harming the user, thats someone else using the tool. As such, the analogy doesn't fit, even in the slightest. When the Primarchs turn because of how the Emperor has treated them, who's fault is that? Noone forced the Primarchs to fall, contrary to your given, flawed example, the Primarchs were steered towards falling, given their situations on their home planets, and their treatment by the Emperor afterwards. Would Angron have fallen if the Emperor helped his troops fight against their oppressors, like he did with Corax? Hell no! He would have been one of the most loyal! Would Curze have fallen if he were taught how to wield his psychic power (amongst other things)? Hell no! Would Magnus have fallen if the Emperor had shared his own psychic knowledge and warnings of sorcery? Hell no! Would Lorgar have fallen if the Emperor actually gradually turned his fanatically religious son away from religion, and warned him about Chaos? Hell no!

 

They are primarchs, not emo kids.

 

Lorgar fell because of his religion fetish. He was told to drop that habbit. Had he found a better use for this passion as the E-man told him, he'd be fine.

 

Lorgar dragged Horus in, who dragged in Fulgrim. Angry wasnt too hard to manipulate given that he was a Khorne Deamon Prince Template from the day he got lobotomised, and the list goes on.

 

Traitor Primarchs became traitors because of Chaos Gods, not pent up teen angst. Their personality flaws and gripes were mearly blown out of proportions by fell powers to cause them to fall.

 

Oh, so the Emperor can tell what morality is and how it works?

 

Had a being with millenia of experience and a mission of saving man kind realy existed then yes!

 

Tell that to Sanguinius, the guy who followed the Emperor in everything, and still died in battle. Tell that to Horus, the Primarch who utterly idolised the Emperor, yet still fell.

 

Sanguinius, just like Dorn and everyone who assaulted the traitors flagship was first and foremost a soldier. A victory is bought with soldiers deaths. It's normal, very sad, but completely normal for soldiers to fall in battle. After all E-man's goals were mankinds survival first and foremost. Sanguinius is a hero for doing his duty to the bitter end. Sanguinius died in battle, a death fitting of a warrior. Unlike my "favorite" Curze.

 

While Horus was still completely loyal to the Emperor he was the first among Primarchs... If after the Chaos induced visions he would cast down his fell power worshiping brother as the Imperial Creed dictates he wouldn't have been deleted out of existence.

[Hazard]

You know, you keep going on about this intelligence thing, and I'm really not sure I buy it.

 

Also, army of trained individual killers who are completely unequipped (at first). A little impressive.

 

We can agree here. A little.

 

So Descent of Angels says that it was all the Lion, while the actual IA on the DA and the DA Codex say that it was Luther.

 

I'm taking official sources over badly written glorified fanfic retcon, thanks.

 

Luther's the one who finds the Lion and takes him in. He is the one who convinces the Order's leaders to launch the planet-wide Crusade. He's a lot more than Jonson's sidekick. He is arguably a lot more than Jonson. He was not second to the Lion in all things.

 

Thats funny. You know, I have an ancient Epic codex where dreadnoughts are piloted by normal space marines(not crippled). Come to think of it Bjorn the Fellhanded is awesome and I dont want him to be a broken shell inside a couple of tons of scrap metall... So I've decided. M40 Bjorn is a normal marine - he just likes piloting his Dready.

 

^^^ Ofcourse I dont really think like that, but you aparently do.

 

Get with the programm. HH series are cannon. Current DA 'dex gives a lot of praise to Luther but it loosely describes the events of the Descent. Luther is awesome but he can never reach the heights of the Lion. He did make for a fine sidekick.

 

Well, there is since the group of knights that discovered him were about to attack him. Seeing as he'd be completely unarmed, and they'd have something vaguely resembling 40K modern tech, I think he'd be in trouble. Without Luther, he'd at minimum have been rather badly wounded...

 

It's ok, the Primarchs heal quickly :D . Or with his knowledge of the forrest and stealth, as per the Descent, he would easily escape them.

 

Sure there is. No Luther, he might rise to high position in the order, but there's no big crusade and his deeds likely aren't as amazing.

 

Got that from some old obscure old 'dex? The Descent is quite specific about most everyone in the Order knowing that the Lion is to become the Grand Master.

 

I meant Lord of the Chaos Beasts, not Chaos Lord of the Beasts.

 

Bwahahaha! You are taking his name far too literally.

 

No. He wouldn't at. Because he is not a good leader. He is an excellent strategist, but he's not a good leader.

 

The Descent of Somethings... States diffrently.

 

Sure. So help 'em slaughter the slavers and leave 'em on the planet.

 

These are people who tortured, enslaved and mutilated one of your sons, who you are evidently not willing to leave behind. Logically, if he is this valuable, you should be at least a little irked at the people who did such damage to him (if only in a "get off my turf" sort of way). You have tons o' marines, tons of big guns on orbiting ships. Saving that army is not hard, and will likely ensure Angron's loyalty to you. Stealing him away in the night is a stupid course of action - he clearly feels far more strongly about that army than about your "Great Crusade". If you can't realize that, you are at the very least shortsighted.

 

And calling them lobotomised rabble when they took out three enemy armies seems a bit excessive. They're not lobotomized, and they're not rabble. Hyperbole, especially baseless hyperbole, doesn't help your case.

 

Why help them? Neither the lobotomised slaves or their slavers have a place on a compliant world. And that world was prolly brought into compliance soon after.

 

Who do you think those gladiators were? Free men that decidided to go pro gladiator? All of them innocent outsiders like Angry? Criminals? Most likely. Rabblle is a fitting word. On to the lobotomised part. The recipients of the "Angry" were implants were known to have rages out side battles. You know just what kind of people suffer from spontaneus rages? Retards. And for once, Im using that as a medical term. So in effect lobotomised fits rather well. And hey, we dont know just how traumatic the procedure was.

 

He broke the wards of the Imperial palace.

 

And if Magnus can't understand them (what was that about Angron being the smartest guy on his planet?) then no one anywhere can, and thus the Emperor's grand vision is forever doomed.

 

One could argue that those wards werent placed there against Primarchs.

 

Magnus has but the tiniest fraction of the E-man experience and most likely even his mighty intellect pales in comparison with the E-mans... And hey it's perfectly OK that no one but the Emperor understands his plans, he only needs to do his part. Not unerstand why, simply do whats ordered.

 

Fine.

 

Don't argue with me any more. Enough?

 

You have to have a pretty poor understanding of psychology to expect every single person to follow your orders.

 

Think of them as soldiers. And Empy boy wouldnt make into super warriors if he didnt expect them to become soldiers. When your officers tell you to jump you ask "how high sir?". Not ask them to explain why.

 

I dont want to seem like I am resorting to argumentum ad hominem but only a teenager or someone who thinks he is a Mahatma Ghandi reincarnate would insist that all orders would need to be explained or take into account your fragile psyche. You know your mission, so suck it up and do it.

 

Worst depends on the standards, and as previously mentioned, most of the Primarchs you so cheerfully deride started out in a much worse situation than their brethren. With far less assistance, far less opportunity and far fewer resources, it is wholly unsurprising they performed worse.

 

But that is the point - few Primarchs got of to a good start, Guilleman is the only one actualy. Lion had it hard but prevailed, Vulkan, Ferrus...

 

Really...

 

So what you're saying is he doesn't make perfect plans? That he is, in fact, not as clever as you (and he) seem to think he is? That he has, in fact, screwed up before?

 

It's called tolerances. Everything built today is with tolerances, be it a plane, a building or the chair you're sitting on. Same thing with plans.

 

Never said they did.

 

So what you're saying is that the Primarchs are evidently not necessary, but the Emperor dragoons them into service anyway?

 

The hell?

 

Are you a graphomaniac? Do you enjoy writing for the sake of writing? In that very sentence is the answer to question why the hell E-man would want his creations back where he intended them to be.

[Hazard]

Really? He might think that, but I think the continued collapses of humanity in previous epochs and the failure of his Great Crusade makes it damned clear that he's not nearly as clever as he thinks he is.

 

Well name some one whois on par.

 

Emperor is an epic leader, he doesnt bother with individuals. Humanity had ups and downs, periods of happiness and periods of violence and bloodshed. It's the natural way. Emperor knew humanity would survive and never revealed himself. He only gently pushed in the desired direction. Bene Gesserith of Dune. After the Old Night he had to reveal himself.

 

One dies or a billion as long as humanity continues to exist Emperors plan is fullfilled.

 

If I left said hatchet lying around next to a homicidal maniac (Chaos), I'm gonna say at least some of the fault is mine.

 

Of course, it's a sentient hatchet, so I should have also told it to scream if the maniac touched it, but that's rather taxing the metaphor.

 

Ahh but thats the point he left them where they were supossed to be at the fore front of the crusades. Following our analogy - in the tool shed.

 

You're the one going on about how morality was what the Emperor said it was...

 

If morality is subjective, then none of the Primarchs can really be judged.

 

Emperor says what morality is - not me.

 

And I never judged the Primarchs from a morality standpoint - only accomplishments.

 

 

 

 

 

BTW This is getting out of hand.... I had to separate my post into 3! :D

[Brother Pariah]

Tough luck. A lot of people suffer from depression but very few off them selfes because of it. One could say it's what separates man from the boys...

 

And Hazard earns himself a warning for trolling. Learn from his mistakes, Brothers.

[Octavulg]

You make too much leaps of faith and not enough logic. Ork gets his arm around E, gets that armed chopped of by Horus. That is it. Was Emperor in trouble? Not mentioned. Would a being that gave the Void Dragon a beatdown be in mortal danger due to ork choking him? Okhams' razors says no.

 

The Emperor saves Horus' life, and then Horus repays the debt by saving the Emperor's.

 

Your way has Horus repaying the debt by killing an Ork who evidently was no threat at all. That makes very little sense.

 

Again, mountains are the best defence grounds period. Tanks arent deployed mountains, for obvious reasons. Not ot mention we dont even know was that world in possesioin of technology like tanks. Holding out in mountains is no wonder, rather Tactics 101 to make use of terrain. And even that showed the limits of Angron - he couldn't come up with anything past that and settled for getting fragged.

 

It's good that you know exactly how the events in question went from a few paragraphs in a single article.

 

It's clear as day that the probability was insignificant. So why even mention that? If an infant Lion didnt die a mature Lion wouldnt.

 

A mature lion presumably can't hide as well, may be open to the corruption of Chaos, and is more likely to eventually succumb to accident.

 

Oh, and there was that group of knights who were going to kill him.

 

Curze knew he dies and went crazy... Sanguinius knew he dies and didnt. Sang > Curze.

 

Curze knew he would die, that everything he had worked for would be destroyed, and all kinds of terrible things would come to pass. A bit different.

 

Logic isn't circular. I consider Angron, Curze and Alpharius - Omegon(but those are off topic here) to be the lesser of all Primarchs. Still far beyond just about anything out there, but not as good as some of the brothers. They simply were a creation less succesfull then say Horus. Not as clever and further componded by their experiences. Their superior brothers saw who the E-man is and thye did not. Senses not as keen, mind not as sharp.

 

So because they don't think the Emperor is infallible, they rebel. Their rebellion upsets the Emperor's plans, demonstrating that the Emperor is not infallible.

 

Explain to me how this makes the Emperor infallible and them incorrect. Go on. I'll wait.

 

Lorgar fell because of his religion fetish. He was told to drop that habbit. Had he found a better use for this passion as the E-man told him, he'd be fine.

 

Extrapolation. Nowhere does it say the Emperor told him to "find a better use for his passion". Instead, he was told that he should be conquering, not converting. The Emperor may see conquest as a better use of his time, but that does not necessarily mean it is.

 

Sanguinius, just like Dorn and everyone who assaulted the traitors flagship was first and foremost a soldier. A victory is bought with soldiers deaths. It's normal, very sad, but completely normal for soldiers to fall in battle. After all E-man's goals were mankinds survival first and foremost. Sanguinius is a hero for doing his duty to the bitter end. Sanguinius died in battle, a death fitting of a warrior. Unlike my "favorite" Curze.

 

While Horus was still completely loyal to the Emperor he was the first among Primarchs... If after the Chaos induced visions he would cast down his fell power worshiping brother as the Imperial Creed dictates he wouldn't have been deleted out of existence.

 

A ) He wasn't deleted from existence. Again with the baseless hyperbole.

B ) You are avoiding the issue. It was pointed out that other Primarchs followed the dictates of the Emperor and died. You said they would not. You are thus wrong. Admit this, or explain yourself better.

 

Get with the programm. HH series are cannon. Current DA 'dex gives a lot of praise to Luther but it loosely describes the events of the Descent. Luther is awesome but he can never reach the heights of the Lion. He did make for a fine sidekick.

 

You know who said the HH series was canon? Dan Abnett. He's it. Indeed, other Black Library sources (like Abnett's editor) have claimed that there is no requirement for Black Library works to even attempt to remain consistent with each other.

 

In short, they're not canon, as the numerous errors found through such books should make clear (as if the mediocre writing was not clue enough, in some cases).

 

Bwahahaha! You are taking his name far too literally.

 

Look. He lives in the forest. Without Luther, it is unlikely he will be taken in. This either means he's gonna get along with the crazy animals, or no one.

 

Who do you think those gladiators were? Free men that decidided to go pro gladiator? All of them innocent outsiders like Angry? Criminals? Most likely. Rabblle is a fitting word. On to the lobotomised part. The recipients of the "Angry" were implants were known to have rages out side battles. You know just what kind of people suffer from spontaneus rages? Retards. And for once, Im using that as a medical term. So in effect lobotomised fits rather well. And hey, we dont know just how traumatic the procedure was.

 

Seeing as the people subject to it remained coherent and retained most, if not all, of their intelligence, I'd say it's a pretty inaccurate term.

 

One could argue that those wards werent placed there against Primarchs.

 

Magnus has but the tiniest fraction of the E-man experience and most likely even his mighty intellect pales in comparison with the E-mans... And hey it's perfectly OK that no one but the Emperor understands his plans, he only needs to do his part. Not unerstand why, simply do whats ordered.

 

Again, you are coming back to this idea that everyone should listen to the Emperor because he's the Emperor.

 

Why?

 

Think of them as soldiers. And Empy boy wouldnt make into super warriors if he didnt expect them to become soldiers. When your officers tell you to jump you ask "how high sir?". Not ask them to explain why.

 

There's a difference between "jump" and "stop doing this now, and never do it again, ever. Even though you've done it for years".

 

I dont want to seem like I am resorting to argumentum ad hominem but only a teenager or someone who thinks he is a Mahatma Ghandi reincarnate would insist that all orders would need to be explained or take into account your fragile psyche. You know your mission, so suck it up and do it.

 

It is rather clear, on a number of occasions, that the Emperor views at least some of the Primarchs as more than just soldiers. His refusal to believe in Horus' betrayal alone should demonstrate that.

 

But that is the point - few Primarchs got of to a good start, Guilleman is the only one actualy. Lion had it hard but prevailed, Vulkan, Ferrus...

 

Perturabo also did. As did Dorn (theoretically, anyway).

 

It's called tolerances. Everything built today is with tolerances, be it a plane, a building or the chair you're sitting on. Same thing with plans.

 

But if he's as clever as you claim, his tolerances should be sufficient to deal with these problems.

 

They're not. He's not infallible. And that means he is not sufficiently godly that he can just get by and never explain himself - because he will not always be right.

 

Are you a graphomaniac? Do you enjoy writing for the sake of writing? In that very sentence is the answer to question why the hell E-man would want his creations back where he intended them to be.

 

Because it would make the legions more effective? So what? An increase in effectiveness is balanced out by the likely problems created by press-ganging them into service.

 

Also, you can spell graphomaniac but not self? The hell?

 

Emperor is an epic leader, he doesnt bother with individuals. Humanity had ups and downs, periods of happiness and periods of violence and bloodshed. It's the natural way. Emperor knew humanity would survive and never revealed himself. He only gently pushed in the desired direction. Bene Gesserith of Dune. After the Old Night he had to reveal himself.

 

One dies or a billion as long as humanity continues to exist Emperors plan is fullfilled.

 

So when humanity is spread over millions of planets, they won't survive and need to be reunited under his personal rule.

 

Right.

 

Ahh but thats the point he left them where they were supossed to be at the fore front of the crusades. Following our analogy - in the tool shed.

 

But the maniac was hiding in the toolshed, and I knew he was around somewhere.

 

Can we stop debating everything else and keep using this metaphor? It's fun. :)

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Lobotomised rabble not fit to be included in the Legions - for all intents and purposes they are already dead. Now enhancing those guys past their normal potential and giving them weapons they could never dream of, now THAT would be a huuuuuuuge mistake.

 

Who said that when the Emperor was done saving Angron and his buddies' asses, those former gladiators had to join the Legions? They could be an Imperial Army unit. We're just saying that the Emperor had the potential to, with ease, reduce tension between him and one of his twenty superhuman creations. He chose not to. Mistake.

 

All primarchs had prophetic visions

 

Source?

 

When the tool turns around and hurts its user, whose fault is it?

 

Let's make an example: you have a hatchet, somebody grabs that very hatchet and chops you to bits. Would you concede to that being your fault?

 

Except it was the hatchet itself that chose to chop you to bits because you didn't use it properly. Perhaps a better analogy would be that you left this sentient hatchet on the ground, with the blade facing up, near a crack in the ground that you know you could trip over.

 

You make too much leaps of faith and not enough logic. Ork gets his arm around E, gets that armed chopped of by Horus. That is it. Was Emperor in trouble? Not mentioned. Would a being that gave the Void Dragon a beatdown be in mortal danger due to ork choking him? Okhams' razors says no.

 

This I kind of agree with you on, with the addendum that I think the Emperor allowed the Ork to appear to struggle to choke the life out of Him so that Horus would save Him and consider his honor debt paid, thus strengthening the bond between the two of them.

 

Corax is better then Angry or Curze but I would say he is no Horus(or Lion, or Russ, or Guilleman etc.).

 

Why is he better? As others have plainly pointed out, Angron and Curze both had titanic achievements.

 

Again, mountains are the best defence grounds period. Tanks arent deployed mountains, for obvious reasons. Not ot mention we dont even know was that world in possesioin of technology like tanks. Holding out in mountains is no wonder, rather Tactics 101 to make use of terrain. And even that showed the limits of Angron - he couldn't come up with anything past that and settled for getting fragged.

 

Because he couldn't come up with anything else with what he had.

 

Tough luck. A lot of people suffer from depression but very few off them selfes because of it. One could say it's what separates man from the boys... But I find such discussion way out of place on WH40K board.

 

I'd say something but Pariah nailed it.

 

Logic isn't circular. I consider Angron, Curze and Alpharius - Omegon(but those are off topic here) to be the lesser of all Primarchs. Still far beyond just about anything out there, but not as good as some of the brothers. They simply were a creation less succesfull then say Horus. Not as clever and further componded by their experiences. Their superior brothers saw who the E-man is and thye did not. Senses not as keen, mind not as sharp.

 

Alpharius? Mind not as sharp?

 

Really.

 

Uhh... except for the fact that the Emperor was on Terra at the time? He could have prevented it at any time, revealed himself before things got as bad as they did, but he chose not to.

 

Since nothing is known of those events it's pointless to argue.

 

No, it's not. We know the Emperor could have done something about those events, but He didn't. So we must assume that a) it was part of His plan or :confused: it was a mistake.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Again, mountains are the best defence grounds period. Tanks arent deployed mountains, for obvious reasons. Not ot mention we dont even know was that world in possesioin of technology like tanks. Holding out in mountains is no wonder, rather Tactics 101 to make use of terrain. And even that showed the limits of Angron - he couldn't come up with anything past that and settled for getting fragged.

You seem to know a lot about where Angron was fighting, despite the fact that we don't know anything about where he was fighting. Ever think that maybe there weren't any mountains for him to take advantage of? Or that they were blockaded by the armies he was fighting, preventing him from reaching them?

 

It's clear as day that the probability was insignificant. So why even mention that? If an infant Lion didnt die a mature Lion wouldnt.

No, it isn't clear as day, not until we know exactly how hard baby Lion had it in the forest.

 

Add Lorgar to that list. And BTW for all intents and purposes there are 18 Primarchs. The 2 missing ones will never be revealed by GW.

 

Curze knew he dies and went crazy... Sanguinius knew he dies and didnt. Sang > Curze.

Fact remains that the Emperor should have taken his own advice, and trained this dangerously unpredictable psyker, like he says all other psykers should be.

 

 

Tough luck. A lot of people suffer from depression but very few off them selfes because of it. One could say it's what separates man from the boys... But I find such discussion way out of place on WH40K board.

Thank you, Brother Pariah. Hazard, there's this little field called "psychology" that cares to disagree with you. As for "very few" killing themselves, "In 1997, suicide was the 8th leading cause of death in the United States. 10.6 out of every 100,000 persons died by suicide." Grow up, check your facts, and think before you type.

 

Logic isn't circular. I consider Angron, Curze and Alpharius - Omegon(but those are off topic here) to be the lesser of all Primarchs. Still far beyond just about anything out there, but not as good as some of the brothers. They simply were a creation less succesfull then say Horus. Not as clever and further componded by their experiences. Their superior brothers saw who the E-man is and thye did not. Senses not as keen, mind not as sharp.

Actually, your logic is circular. You call the worst Primarchs that because of your biased view, which is biased because you see them as inferior. You have no proof for your "worst Primarchs" being the worst other than your own made-up figures and assumptions, which we have already disproved. Hence, circular logic.

 

They are primarchs, not emo kids.

 

Lorgar fell because of his religion fetish. He was told to drop that habbit. Had he found a better use for this passion as the E-man told him, he'd be fine.

 

Lorgar dragged Horus in, who dragged in Fulgrim. Angry wasnt too hard to manipulate given that he was a Khorne Deamon Prince Template from the day he got lobotomised, and the list goes on.

 

Traitor Primarchs became traitors because of Chaos Gods, not pent up teen angst. Their personality flaws and gripes were mearly blown out of proportions by fell powers to cause them to fall.

You really have no idea about how peoples minds work, do you? Do you follow your parents as slavishly as this? Just because your father tells you to do something, doesn't mean you'll like or do it, no matter who he is.

 

Had a being with millenia of experience and a mission of saving man kind realy existed then yes!

Actually, as morality is subjective, thats no excuse whatsoever to tell me whats right and whats wrong.

 

The recipients of the "Angry" were implants were known to have rages out side battles. You know just what kind of people suffer from spontaneus rages? Retards. And for once, Im using that as a medical term. So in effect lobotomised fits rather well. And hey, we dont know just how traumatic the procedure was.

So now all people who've had anger problems are retards? And people who've been lobotomised for medical reasons?

Lastly, this is a process that removes a part of the brain! It's going to be traumatic.

 

Think of them as soldiers. And Empy boy wouldnt make into super warriors if he didnt expect them to become soldiers. When your officers tell you to jump you ask "how high sir?". Not ask them to explain why.

 

I dont want to seem like I am resorting to argumentum ad hominem but only a teenager or someone who thinks he is a Mahatma Ghandi reincarnate would insist that all orders would need to be explained or take into account your fragile psyche. You know your mission, so suck it up and do it.

So the inclusion of Chaplains in the military and police, as well as psychologists, is utterly useless, as the soldiers being what they are should just "suck it up"? Here's a hint, people can't follow orders effectively if they're unstable. Having a mental problem isn't something you can just "suck up", it is a major problem. Remove the soldiers ability to think clearly, and you've got yourself a problem, one that can't be fixed by telling them to suck it up.

 

Your logic only works in a complete emotional void. The problem is, they aren't in one. Events around them will impact on the Primarchs, no matter how much they want to do their duty. As for Lorgar, I'll tell you what, go into your local church, and tell them to suck it up, stop depending on a god to live their life. I guarantee you won't make any friends. Go into an extremist church, like what Lorgar would have been, and I might visit you in hospital to congratulate you or following through, or visit your grave, depending on how they take it.

Think of it this way. Lorgar spent his entire childhood and early life anticipating the arrival of the messiah. Then the Emperor arrives! His messiah is here! Praise God etc! As you could guess, the guy is ecstatic, it's like a die-hard Christian meeting Jesus. You're then told that you are to lead this messiahs Crusade into the stars, reuniting mankind, and that you are his son. Fanatacism builds yet further.

However, he then comes along, and calls you stupid for worshipping him. Your God, the figure you utterly idolise, has just called your entire lifes work worthless. How would you feel?

 

But that is the point - few Primarchs got of to a good start, Guilleman is the only one actualy. Lion had it hard but prevailed, Vulkan, Ferrus...

Vulkan had it hard? He beat up some Eldar, then sat around in a Forge! Ferrus just beat up the wyrm, then ran around for a few years! Lion, beat up a few creatures, a task you yourself admit wasn't risky for him, even as a kid, then got some knights to help him finish the job! As again, Lorgar joined a cult, nothing hard there. Fulgrim learned to recycle, no military achievements whatsoever. Horus got taken by the Emperor as a kid. Russ got found by wolves, then got drunk. Few Primarchs had it hard! About the only ones that did were Sanguinius, Mortarion, Angron, Curze, Corax and Khan!

 

And yet, despite the fact that you admit most Primarchs didn't begin on an equal footing, you think they should all finish equally, and ridicule those that don't. To use Octavulg's comment (I think it was his), you're doing the equivalent of giving two people money, one of them $10, and the other $50, then complaining that the first only came back with $55, when the other comes back with $60.

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

Not a chance on this earth or the 40k one I'm reading all of this. However, I'd just like to say that I think we don' have enough info to truly judge what happened and why, and how culpable the Emperor was for it. We haven't got, well, anything that explains the Emperor's point of view and motivations, what his real plans were and what he was basing them on.

From the information that is currently in print, we can see a (super)man who is at once brutal and humanitarian. From his actions with his sons, we can see there are some he appears to 'try' harder with than others; the ones he doesn't pay much attention to, it seems almost calculated, and they are the ones who go on to cause trouble.

He is a good parent and he is a bad parent and he is an enigma, as are his ultimate goals. No-one is wrong, but no-one is right. Pure 40k!

 

GFP

[Hazard]

Im not going to quote everyone because the forum engine's absurd limits for quoting. I'll just go over the points.

 

Primarchs are not equal. They all kick ass but some are greater, some are lesser. We all now the greater ones - Horus the Warmaster, Lion who got the second highest tally, Guilleman who captured a great number of worlds and made stable, prosperous and compliant... And there were those less successfull in the crusades, for one reason or another. Now people say the two Primarchs I consider least succesfull have titanic acheivements. That is true on an absolute scale but false on a relative scale. To put it in perspective, say there is a rating of awesomeness from 0 to 1000, zero being you suck 1000 being the Emperor. On this scale a hero like, say, Commisar Yarrick would get about a 100 (hunderd) maybe a bit more, maybe less. The Primarchs like ANgron and Curze would get about 700 (seven hundred). They did have titanic acheivements. But lets compare them to the other Primarchs. Horus was close to the Emperor and would be around 900, Lion or Guilleman around 890 etc... So comparing them on an absolute scale they may seem not too far behind. But since all Primarchs have at least 700 then comparing absolutes isn't really optimal and we will cut everything below 700 just to compare the awesomness in the primarch VIP zone of 700-1000. Here we will see who is who.

 

People say Angron and Curze had extra hard childhood(if such a term can even be aplied to a Primarch). That is not true, while they didnt have it easy, their hardships do not stand out are in effect no excuse for their lesser acheivements. We can use any kind of hyperbole: Lion slaughtering puny chaos underlings, Curze torturing petty criminals and Angron bashing heads with lobotomised rabble or we can say Jonston slaying great beasts, Curze leading a masterfull campaign of terror and Angron earning glory in the Arena... The fact remains, their lifes werent harder. If those hardships did brake them it's a blemish on their record as others didnt brake.

 

On the topic of would-be Spartacus. I only know common knowledge about the rebelion, you can find that he ran away to the barren muntains in the LExicanum. I only used that in my argument. My oponents actualy started describing great armies and tanks and armor... :cuss they got that from?

Angrons and cronies in mountains - cannon fiction. Tankis, armor etc. thrown against them - fan fiction.

 

On the subject of Emo Primarchs who were oh so hurt by daddy not allowing them to die with the rabble or continue to make Dark Eldar blush. People who say they rebelled would have had a point IF and only if those Primarchs would have done so. Thye didnt! Lorgar(Kor Phaeron to be precise) fell and initiated the Heresy. Angron was manipulated by Horus - cannon fact. Curze basicaly commited suicide.

They were also the 2 Primarchs who begrudge the Emperor the most but even despite that I they didn't rebel but were used. By this logic i say that their failure to recognise the Emperor is a part of their inferiority.

 

Other misc:

 

The guy who wonderes if Alpharius wasnt sharp - learn to read, I mentioned that A/O is off topic there and described Angry and Curze.

 

To the depresion guy - 8th among suicide causes translates to what perentage of general population? That's right. Tiny.

[Octavulg]

But since all Primarchs have at least 700 then comparing absolutes isn't really optimal and we will cut everything below 700 just to compare the awesomness in the primarch VIP zone of 700-1000. Here we will see who is who.

 

You can't quantify qualitative evidence. It does not work. That's why it's qualitative evidence, dammit.

 

Just because you think the successes of Angron and Curze (and other Primarchs) are inferior does not make them so. You must provide evidence, something you have failed to do rather lamentably.

 

People say Angron and Curze had extra hard childhood(if such a term can even be aplied to a Primarch). That is not true, while they didnt have it easy, their hardships do not stand out are in effect no excuse for their lesser acheivements. We can use any kind of hyperbole: Lion slaughtering puny chaos underlings, Curze torturing petty criminals and Angron bashing heads with lobotomised rabble or we can say Jonston slaying great beasts, Curze leading a masterfull campaign of terror and Angron earning glory in the Arena... The fact remains, their lifes werent harder. If those hardships did brake them it's a blemish on their record as others didnt brake.

 

You feel the hardships of Curze and Angron don't stand out? Every other Primarch was taken in by a friendly group which tried to help them grow, taught them, and respected them. Except those two. They are the only two who have no allies on their worlds, no one trying to help them. Angron sort of does, in that he would have been taught some methods of fighting, but since that is all he would have been taught, this is hardly much better than Curze.

 

No other Primarch underwent brain surgery to remove his self control. No other Primarch was constantly wracked by debilitating visions which foretold the destruction of mankind and him personally. In short, they do stand out.

 

 

 

On the topic of would-be Spartacus. I only know common knowledge about the rebelion, you can find that he ran away to the barren muntains in the LExicanum. I only used that in my argument. My oponents actualy started describing great armies and tanks and armor... :cuss they got that from?

 

You mentioned tanks...

 

Armies...well, they destroyed three (IIRC) armies. Says so in the IA. Might be two. Point is - armies were destroyed.

 

On the subject of Emo Primarchs who were oh so hurt by daddy not allowing them to die with the rabble or continue to make Dark Eldar blush. People who say they rebelled would have had a point IF and only if those Primarchs would have done so. Thye didnt! Lorgar(Kor Phaeron to be precise) fell and initiated the Heresy. Angron was manipulated by Horus - cannon fact. Curze basicaly commited suicide.

 

Curze committed suicide as a parallel to Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now. :D

 

Furthermore, the Night Lords had begun acting against the Imperium of their own initiative before the Heresy. Lorgar's turn to Chaos is his rebellion against the Emperor. Angron's corruption by Chaos could have happened at any point in his history - notably his sulking period aboard the Emperor's ship. He also ignored the Emperor's strictures about the rage surgery, which is at least a minor rebellion.

 

As an additional point, the IA series raises the question of whether Horus was pondering rebellion even before he got corrupted by Chaos. His manipulation of some of the Primarchs (like Perturabo and Angron) makes little sense otherwise.

 

Also, why the hell don't you think of Perturabo as one of the worst Primarchs? He spends his entire time before the Emperor finds him as some ruler's warlord, then becomes a siege general whose troops are taken away and used for garrison. That's hardly impressive...

 

They were also the 2 Primarchs who begrudge the Emperor the most but even despite that I they didn't rebel but were used. By this logic i say that their failure to recognise the Emperor is a part of their inferiority.

 

What?

 

They didn't rebel against him, except they did at the instigation of others, so they're inferior. That's not logic...

 

Furthermore, as I pointed out, two Primarchs did rebel independently. When Angron stopped following the Emperor is an open question - he already wasn't listening about the surgeries, and his Legion's behavior in battle makes one wonder whether he'd turned to Khorne before the Heresy.

 

The guy who wonderes if Alpharius wasnt sharp - learn to read, I mentioned that A/O is off topic there and described Angry and Curze.

 

Mate, considering the quality of your typing and spelling, I don't think you have any right to lambaste people for not understanding you.

 

Secondly, what you said was: "I consider Angron, Curze and Alpharius - Omegon(but those are off topic here) to be the lesser of all Primarchs. Still far beyond just about anything out there, but not as good as some of the brothers. They simply were a creation less succesfull then say Horus. Not as clever and further componded by their experiences. Their superior brothers saw who the E-man is and thye did not. Senses not as keen, mind not as sharp."

 

If you will notice, you bring up all three/four Primarchs together, making them the subject. You then make general statements about the subject of the paragraph. Thus, when you say "Sense not as keen, mind not as sharp", you are also referring to Alpharius and Omegon.

 

Grammatically, you said Alpharius wasn't sharp. I must, therefore, wonder if it is you that must learn to write, rather than that we must learn to read.

 

To the depresion guy - 8th among suicide causes translates to what perentage of general population? That's right. Tiny.

 

Yup. And yet, you'll find each of them had family, who get understandably offended when somebody claims their family member killed themselves because they were weak.

[Gv0zD]

You feel the hardships of Curze and Angron don't stand out? Every other Primarch was taken in by a friendly group which tried to help them grow, taught them, and respected them. Except those two. They are the only two who have no allies on their worlds, no one trying to help them. Angron sort of does, in that he would have been taught some methods of fighting, but since that is all he would have been taught, this is hardly much better than Curze.

It's hard to disagree with the fact that Curze's childhood was horrible. He lived in slums, eating rats in the city full with criminals and mafia (or smth alike). And he managed to deal with those criminals and bing Nostramo to order. Angron was enslaved and was "lobotomized" and used to be a gladiator during all his childhood and teenage life.

 

Even though the Lion had spent his childhood in chaos-infested woods, he was adopted by Luther, who tought him to speak and trained to be a warrior. Sanguinius was adopted "on his arrival" to Baal, and spent his childhood in toxic waste dump with his new parents and their tribe. They learnt of people's kindness and goodness, they saw their parents' hardships and helped them, while Curze and Angron were surrounded only by evil people, murderers, slavers, they got used to people like those, and it would definitely impact on their mental stability and attitude to the others. 

[Brother Pariah]

@ Lord_Caerolion & Octavulg,

Please don't feed the troll. I understand that he's made some provocative comments, and you think you can save him from his own ignorance or something, but you're likely just reinforcing his behavior.

[DeffWolf]

It's like normal psychology isn't it though. A child that is continually abused learns to get abused, and that is sometimes all he knows. Whereas a child that is praised and looked after and shown love and care learns that love and care are what truly matter and learns to love and care himself. Now transfer that to the 40k universe and it isn't that different. Yes, its eternal war lol - lot of love and care - but Curze, Angron, Mortarion and Lorgar are all in the same boat and if I were them I'd probably have turned a hell of a lot sooner. Surrounded by successful brothers and never shown love by your "supposed father" it would be awful. Coupled with the internal problems they had its of no surprise that Chaos showed them a new start and maybe one they thought would be to their liking.

[Astalon]

Bit off topic but isn't it a bit disingenuous to say that Angron was lobotomized. The said procedure is a simply horrific act borne of psychological ignorance and is brutal.

 

What happened to Angron was sophisticated surgery which did not reduce him to severly limited mental state.

[Hazard]

You can't quantify qualitative evidence. It does not work. That's why it's qualitative evidence, dammit.

 

Just because you think the successes of Angron and Curze (and other Primarchs) are inferior does not make them so. You must provide evidence, something you have failed to do rather lamentably.

 

There is no problem what so ever in assesing quality via numbers. Hell QA is a science unto it self.

 

Have you, per chance a humanitarian education? As in an education not in the field of exact science but rather things like sociology, philosophy, philology etc. ? That would explain why you fail to see that.

 

Primarchs were first and foremost soldiers and generals. The were to spear head the reclamation of human worlds. There are plenty of variables there all of wich are numerical, all of wich can be compared. Time taken, ammo spent, soldiers expended, collateral damage...

 

It is a 100% cannonical fact that Horus had the greatest victory tally. It's cannon that Lion was the number 2. Guilleman is said to have worlds more rapidly and and with less collateral damage. Since we dont hear that about others and we know the numbers one and two I'd say he is either tied for 2 or 3(or he is 2 and Lion 3).

 

So in effect they were better at reclaiming worlds then the gang: Corax, A/O, Dorn, Russ, Lorgar, PErturabo, Curze, Angry man, Vulkan, Ferrus, Magnus, Khan, Sanguinius.

 

Emperors children were the smallest legion so they are at the back. Russ is touted to have a great victory tally. Alpha Legion were younger and had less worlds to their name....

 

Thats it. For all we know the Primarch that were not specificaly mentioned had an equal victory tally. What does that mean? It means that despite possesing CRIPPLING personality flaws both Curze and Angron didnt make up for that in victories.

 

Also, Primarchs were not only the sons of E-man but effectively his vassals. They swore fealty, some willingly, some grudgingly. But they did. and, as it goes: love all that he loves, and shun all that he shuns. Among others Primarchs that earned Emperors ire are Haunter and Angry. For a vassal the displeasure of the Lord is a failure.

 

You feel the hardships of Curze and Angron don't stand out? Every other Primarch was taken in by a friendly group which tried to help them grow, taught them, and respected them. Except those two. They are the only two who have no allies on their worlds, no one trying to help them. Angron sort of does, in that he would have been taught some methods of fighting, but since that is all he would have been taught, this is hardly much better than Curze.

 

No other Primarch underwent brain surgery to remove his self control. No other Primarch was constantly wracked by debilitating visions which foretold the destruction of mankind and him personally. In short, they do stand out.

 

So it's just that? IMHO that's rather weak. And lets not forget - they went on the Crusades that went on for hundreds of years! So it's not like just because nobody gave them a pat on the back they were broken men.

 

Also Konrad Curze lived in a Hive world - billions of people there and he couldn't find anyone to even remotely fitting to be a comrade? Or he never found anything in the humans there that would fit the desription of good? Or could it be *gasp* his inability to do so? ;)

 

You mentioned tanks...

 

Armies...well, they destroyed three (IIRC) armies. Says so in the IA. Might be two. Point is - armies were destroyed.

 

Im pretty sure I didnt. Any way somebody mentioned armor, and in my world armor is what AFV(Armored Fighting Vehicles) are made of. Anyway mountains and armies are cannon as well as the fact that rebels were starving beacuase of barren mountain landscape. Pretty obvious that Mountains were chosen as a defencible position.

 

Furthermore, the Night Lords had begun acting against the Imperium of their own initiative before the Heresy. Lorgar's turn to Chaos is his rebellion against the Emperor. Angron's corruption by Chaos could have happened at any point in his history - notably his sulking period aboard the Emperor's ship. He also ignored the Emperor's strictures about the rage surgery, which is at least a minor rebellion.

 

As an additional point, the IA series raises the question of whether Horus was pondering rebellion even before he got corrupted by Chaos. His manipulation of some of the Primarchs (like Perturabo and Angron) makes little sense otherwise.

 

Also, why the hell don't you think of Perturabo as one of the worst Primarchs? He spends his entire time before the Emperor finds him as some ruler's warlord, then becomes a siege general whose troops are taken away and used for garrison. That's hardly impressive...

 

It's funny that whenever someone rebels against the Emperor, doesnt follow his orders - due to his own weakness be it rages or religion fetish or meth like trips the E man gets the blame... Emperor gave them an order. Orders are not questioned, period - that how all armies work. Your point about chaplains, psychologists doesnt hit home - they are typically of low rank and do not posses the clearance to know, question and discuss orders. a soldier that come to a chaplain or a shrink wont be told why he has to sweep the floor with a crowbar, rather he'd just get "do it in the name of the Lord" or "do, it's no that bad, perfectly normal even".

And hey nobody prevented Angry or Curze to go to a Chapplain!

 

On the topic of Horus. I'll settle for the HH series version thank you. Horus was turned by a chaos induced vision and by having to purge a perfectly normal and progressive civilisation simply because they interated Xenos in to their society. Imperial Creed isn't perfect it's just the lesser of a multitude of evils.

 

Once again, cannon: Horus manipulated Angron. Angron was loyal while he was making worlds compliant, full stop. And that was many many years(hundreds perhaps). He idnt rebel. He was used as a tool, just like Horus, LOrgar, Mortarion but with far less elegance.

 

I always found Perturabo boring, I dont care about him. I never said he is good or bad, he seems to be in the middle.

 

What?

 

They didn't rebel against him, except they did at the instigation of others, so they're inferior. That's not logic...

 

They were bent to the will of others. Is that not a sign of weakness, is weakness not a sign of inferiority?

 

If you will notice, you bring up all three/four Primarchs together, making them the subject. You then make general statements about the subject of the paragraph. Thus, when you say "Sense not as keen, mind not as sharp", you are also referring to Alpharius and Omegon.

 

You know, Im pretty sure my English is better then your Russian or Latvian. ;)

 

None the less I worked with enough native english speakers to know that I am well understood by people who are able to read and think. You have not shown much of the latter. Fear not, "mate", I shall guide you trough the treacherous path to understanding. :P

 

The part in brackets. Brackets look like that: "(" and ")", if you dont know. ;) It says "but those are off topic". that means they will not be discussed. Who is off topic? Angry and and Curze? Obviously not. A/O? Yes.

ADHD kicking in?

 

Yup. And yet, you'll find each of them had family, who get understandably offended when somebody claims their family member killed themselves because they were weak.

 

Ahh but that is the point - they were! It's a tragedy, and those families have my condolences, but no doubt - they were weak willed but they were loved non the less! It's flat out childish to believe there was nothing wrong with these people.

Des mortes aut bene, aut nihil? Not when you try to use the dead as an argument.

[DeffWolf]

I'm getting increasingly bored to death by the constant bickering and trolling this dude keeps up. the amount of highlighting he does is obscene and lets be honest, grey really isnt THE colour. and also - its a bleeding post for emperor's sake. there is absolutely no need to re-write the bleeding history of warhammer 40,000!

[Brother Pariah]

Last chance to keep this thread on-topic, Brethren. Please discuss the Emperor, not peoples' educational backgrounds, your theories on suicide, and grammatical nit-picking.

[Octavulg]

There is no problem what so ever in assesing quality via numbers. Hell QA is a science unto it self.

 

I said nothing about assessing quality via numbers. That's fine.

 

Qualitative.

 

There is a problem with doing it the way you do it. You are taking a (very) few generalized statements, assigning them arbitrary values, and declaring certain Primarchs to be superior to others based on that.

 

That's not science. It's barely even opinion.

 

Make a case for why the values and abilities demonstrated by those Primarchs are inferior without resorting to arbitrary numerals, decided upon by you.

 

Primarchs were first and foremost soldiers and generals. The were to spear head the reclamation of human worlds. There are plenty of variables there all of wich are numerical, all of wich can be compared. Time taken, ammo spent, soldiers expended, collateral damage...

 

None of which we possess...

 

At most, we have time taken for some of them (we know Lorgar took too long), soldiers expended for a few of them, and a ranking of victory totals for three (IIRC), one of which is apparently unreliable (Horus', due to his apparent cadging of victories from Corax).

 

You aren't using quantitative evidence because there isn't any. The closest thing there is is the comparision of victory totals (which lacks actual numbers), and that relies heavily on the definition of victory, which we also do not possess.

 

It is a 100% cannonical fact that Horus had the greatest victory tally. It's cannon that Lion was the number 2. Guilleman is said to have worlds more rapidly and and with less collateral damage. Since we dont hear that about others and we know the numbers one and two I'd say he is either tied for 2 or 3(or he is 2 and Lion 3).

 

Horus apparently stole some from Corax.

 

Also, it's canon. Cannons shoot, canon gets people shot. Different words.

 

So in effect they were better at reclaiming worlds then the gang: Corax, A/O, Dorn, Russ, Lorgar, PErturabo, Curze, Angry man, Vulkan, Ferrus, Magnus, Khan, Sanguinius.

 

Better? What does that mean? They reclaimed more worlds? Apparently, but Jonson and Horus had more victories while Guilliman reclaimed more worlds, so clearly there is no direct correlation. All we know is that Guilliman reclaimed the most worlds - we don't even know what that means, exactly.

 

What if best is defined as the worlds rejoining the Imperium the quickest? Or by being conquered with the fewest casualties? Or with the most elegant plan? What if reclaiming worlds is defined as completely depopulating them and resettling them? Or when they return to pre-invasion levels of production? Does the peaceful acquiescence of a planet count as conquest?

 

Thats it. For all we know the Primarch that were not specificaly mentioned had an equal victory tally. What does that mean? It means that despite possesing CRIPPLING personality flaws both Curze and Angron didnt make up for that in victories.

 

So they're flawed, but still didn't do notably worse than other Primarchs - and that makes them less impressive?

 

I'd say it's more so. They overcame their flaws to perform just as ably.

 

Also, Primarchs were not only the sons of E-man but effectively his vassals. They swore fealty, some willingly, some grudgingly. But they did. and, as it goes: love all that he loves, and shun all that he shuns. Among others Primarchs that earned Emperors ire are Haunter and Angry. For a vassal the displeasure of the Lord is a failure.

 

So your standard for judging the success of Primarchs is by how pleased the Emperor was with them?

 

I'll admit, this standard may produce the results in question, but I somehow doubt it's one shared by the community at large.

 

I'd judge success comparitively - what did they start out with on their home worlds, where were they when the Emperor got them, and how did their legion perform.

 

So it's just that? IMHO that's rather weak. And lets not forget - they went on the Crusades that went on for hundreds of years! So it's not like just because nobody gave them a pat on the back they were broken men.

 

We don't actually know how long they spent on Crusade (we know roughly how long the Crusade was, but not how long each Primarch was involved.

 

Furthermore, I feel obligated to point out that you are exaggerating things. Curze grew up in an environment of cutthroat murder and crime, and used copious quantities of violence to ensure his orders were obeyed. Furthermore, he was told that these methods were wrong by the man who had been entirely happy to use his methods until people complained, had his home world betray him, and had his legion rot from the inside out.

 

Yeah. Can't imagine why Curze got upset.

 

Angron, meanwhile, was captured at a young age and brutally enslaved. He was forced to fight in an arena for the entertainment of a screaming mob, presumably killing friends. He was forced to undergo a likely traumatic surgery which cost him much of his self-control. Finally, when he escapes from said circumstances and flees with other gladiators, he is pursued constantly by his enslavers. Eventually, after years of battling with his followers (presumably creating bonds of loyalty between them and helping develop his sense of martial pride and honor), they are about to face their last battle. However, Angron is taken up to a ship at night, told that he can escape from all this - and refuses. However, said ship captures him as he sleeps, and the men who trusted him and who he lead die thinking he has abandoned them. Added to this, it turns out that it would have been incredibly easy for the man who kidnapped him to save them.

 

Gosh, can't imagine why there was any resentment there.

 

Also Konrad Curze lived in a Hive world - billions of people there and he couldn't find anyone to even remotely fitting to be a comrade? Or he never found anything in the humans there that would fit the desription of good? Or could it be *gasp* his inability to do so? msn-wink.gif

 

Considering the world of Nostromo is objectively described to be a hellacious place ruled by criminals where the few good people were afraid to step out of doors after dark (and it was always dark), I'm gonna have to go with yeah, he couldn't find any one. They were hiding indoors, where twas safe. He was outdoors, with the criminals.

 

Plus, having a family makes him less like Batman.

 

Im pretty sure I didnt. Any way somebody mentioned armor, and in my world armor is what AFV(Armored Fighting Vehicles) are made of. Anyway mountains and armies are cannon as well as the fact that rebels were starving beacuase of barren mountain landscape. Pretty obvious that Mountains were chosen as a defencible position.

 

That or the whole planet is mountains. This is GW.

 

It's funny that whenever someone rebels against the Emperor, doesnt follow his orders - due to his own weakness be it rages or religion fetish or meth like trips the E man gets the blame... Emperor gave them an order. Orders are not questioned, period - that how all armies work. Your point about chaplains, psychologists doesnt hit home - they are typically of low rank and do not posses the clearance to know, question and discuss orders. a soldier that come to a chaplain or a shrink wont be told why he has to sweep the floor with a crowbar, rather he'd just get "do it in the name of the Lord" or "do, it's no that bad, perfectly normal even".

And hey nobody prevented Angry or Curze to go to a Chapplain!

 

What point about psychologists? I mentioned neither them nor Chaplains...

 

And the Emperor, according to you, is amazing, wonderful, and can foresee just about everything. If such a man makes mistakes that lead to the corruption and betrayal of many of his top generals, are those mistakes solely the generals'? Or does he bear some of the blame because of the authority he claims?

 

In the military, you are instructed to never give an order which will not be obeyed. Implicit in this is that you must know what orders will be obeyed and what will not be.

 

The Emperor's orders were not obeyed. The fault, while it also lies with his soldiers, lies at least in part with him because the abilities ascribed to him by both fans and the fluff mean he should have been able to prevent it. If he is so amazing, he should have taken the relatively easy actions which would have prevented these results. If he is not so amazing, he should have been much less arrogant. Either way...

 

On the topic of Horus. I'll settle for the HH series version thank you. Horus was turned by a chaos induced vision and by having to purge a perfectly normal and progressive civilisation simply because they interated Xenos in to their society. Imperial Creed isn't perfect it's just the lesser of a multitude of evils.

 

Alternately, Horus was weakened by illness, then corrupted with Chaos rituals. Works just fine.

 

More to the point, the Horus Heresy series hasn't retconned the treatment of the Iron Warriors. Horus still spreads them out on garrison duty which wears them down psychologically...

 

Once again, cannon: Horus manipulated Angron. Angron was loyal while he was making worlds compliant, full stop. And that was many many years(hundreds perhaps). He idnt rebel. He was used as a tool, just like Horus, LOrgar, Mortarion but with far less elegance.

 

So Horus talked him into using the surgeries on his legion? Angron chose to do so himself, and ignored the Emperor of his own volition. He ignored an order. Which, as you point out, is rebellion.

 

I always found Perturabo boring, I dont care about him. I never said he is good or bad, he seems to be in the middle.

 

Except he started out better off than almost every Primarch except Guilliman, and never rose above where he started.

 

That's pathetic. He quite literally did virtually nothing to improve. He is ennui incarnate.

 

They were bent to the will of others. Is that not a sign of weakness, is weakness not a sign of inferiority?

 

So when they're bent to the will of the Emperor, they're strong, but bent to the will of others they're weak?

 

Perhaps they demonstrate more strength by foresaking what they have always known for the unknown course of action.

[Hazard]

We are back to square one... Arguments like that always end that way.

 

Emperor isnt the attention to detail type, that much is obvious. His plans dont involve a dozen players where he knows each and every action of those players, rather, it involves untold numbers of people and stretches trough millenia. He doesnt know everyone who will play their, and doesnt need to.

 

Is it a flaw? Perhaps, I would call it a compromise, sacrifice the detail in favor of sheer scale. Certainly doesnt take away much from his abilities as a leader.

 

After all it is not the flaws of certain Primarchs that brought the Heresy unto Imerium but in fact the Fell Powers. The flaws helped - they gave Chaos Gods leverage but on their own werent enough. Some blame can be placed on E, but of all the guilty parties(E, Chaos and the primarch in question) the E-man gets by far the least.

 

One last parallel: implants for World eaters - a kid getting his hands on a Playboy magazine, joining Horus - that same kid burning the house 'cuz his friend told him it's gonna be fun.

[Wulfkry]

hmmm seems i started a small brush fire by putting this post up. I truly hope that through the lively discussions and debates that we've seen so far on this topic no one has been slighted or truly offended. I would emplore everyone that reads this and posts on it to remember its just a game though a very cool one a game nevertheless. =]