The Emperor

[malika666]

I don't think the Emperor was a bad parent per se...However, if we are to look at it like that the Primarchs are nothing more but whiny teenagers who haven't really grown up yet.

 

Yes, the Emperor kind of went wrong on Angron, he should have helped him or something along those lines. (it might have been more acceptable if Angron refused the Emperor's support though)

 

With the other Primarchs...we are either dealing with whiny kids, or their betrayals are a little bit more than the simplistic "daddy didnt love me enough'.

[Sons of Horus]

wow i posted early on and now that i'm back i'm absolutely shocked :eek this is going to the 'how do you know you've taken 40k too far' thread :P

 

BTW since i'm too lazy to really argue and since Pariah has cut that part out i'll just say i'm 100% on Octavulg and Lord Caerolion's side :P

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

After some more thought, I'm partly convinced that part of the problem may have been the order in which he found the Primarchs. Horus was first and, in a harsh environment, he had thrived and done well and so had many of the others; most of them had been found on harsh worlds/had taken control of the planets/had shown themselves hugely capable despite their circumstances. After all of this, it might have been easy for the big E to overlook issues, especially when he felt he could trust his other sons to help out the their troubled brother(s). And if Horus hadn't have been corrupted, then it probably would have worked out ok.

So, whilst the Emperor did make some mistakes, I think his biggest one was assuming that everything was ok with his sons and that they would always be totally loyal to him. Maybe after he had sorted out the Imperial webway, and so hepled to rid Humanity of the need to use the warp, he would have taken the time to help out Curze and Angron. And that might be the issue there, the Emperor might believe that everyone who is close to him is able, and willing, to put aside their issues until the main task is complete. Could his pragmatism have been his ultimate downfall?

So there!

 

GFP

[Captain Leonidas]

I think there are too many people in this thread willing to completely blame the Emperor or completely blame the Primarchs, citing individual pieces of fluff to support their arguments while ignoring others. In reality, things are never that simple.

 

The fluff is pretty clear in regards to the Emperor warning the Primarchs about certain activities such as studying the Warp, while the Primarchs in many ways showed a complete willingness to disregard his teachings, regardless of their reasons or what the Emperor told them. The fluff is also pretty clear in painting some of the Primarchs as damaged beyond redemption at an early age, such as Angron and Curze, and possibly Jonson. Angron is actually stated as implanting his psycho chips into his legionnaires, despite the Emperor telling him not to. Even though Angron hated the Emperor, his hatred does not excuse his total willingness to butcher entire populations and fall to Chaos. If I didn't like the Emperor, that's no excuse to join the opposite side. Angron and company had to evaluate whether joining Chaos was a good thing or not, and in most cases, they did so because they were rather petty. Horus joined because the Emperor wouldn't tell him his secrets, Angron for a percieved slight against his honour, Lorgar because he was told off for worhsipping the Emperor. Imagine it, if God told you off for worshipping him, would you then go off and worship the Devil? Is that a reasonable reaction? The Emperor made it pretty clear why he didn't seem to like religion, so why should Lorgar not understand this?

 

Of all the Primarchs, Magnus has the only really justifiable reason for turning against the Emperor, because he was actually attacked and nearly killed by someone who he had good reason to believe was acting on the Emperor's behalf. For the rest, their reactions were pitiful at best, and downright pathetic at worst. Angron should have just challenged the Emperor to mortal combat, or refused to lead his legion, and Horus should have simply been patient with the Emperor and trusted in the man he supposedly saw as a real father figure.

 

On the other hand, there certainly seems to have been things the Emperor could have done to at least lessen the inevitable civil war. He could have perhaps warned the Primarchs about Chaos, but the consensus amongst people in the know is that the more you know about Chaos the worse things get. Inquisitors invariable fall to Chaos after long service and loosening morals, and the Emperor may have felt he was the only person qualified to actually know of Chaos intimately. Whether people actually agree with that is irrelevant, because as the Heresy showed about half of the primarchs were very corruptible, and knowledge of Chaos has never been a good ward against the Dark Gods. The Emperor may have certainly tried helping Angron fight against his enemies on his home planet, but we know so little of the circumstances that it is mere conjecture that the Emperor would have been able to make a difference.

 

The fluff certainly seems to point in the direction that the Emperor did plan the Horus Heresy, in which case the argument that the Emperor made mistakes is moot. If this is true, then he certainly seems to have been willing to sacrifice many of his sons to achieve his goals. In this context, one would have to consider whether the Emperor even considered himself a parent to the Primarchs, and not a skilled conman, consumnate liar, and user of people. I don't think the words "bad parent" would have any meaning for him, since he likely never considered the Primarchs as family, but rather simply generals of his armies.

[War Angel]

the emperor isn't a great parent or leader for that matter. he never explains things to his followers which ends up making them think that there's no valid reason in the first place. look at how trashed humanity is now :drool: you know exactly who to blame it on :drool:

 

 

im preaty sure that telling people what youre grand plan is... and living a few million years after they die, you would have to repeat youreself so many times.

 

big time leaders do not like to repeat themselfs.

 

 

Magnus was attacked because he sent a message to the emperor, even after he told him to stop researching that kind of stuff.

 

isnt there even somthing about a gate that ended up collapsing possibly because of the message?

[Octavulg]

Is it a flaw? Perhaps, I would call it a compromise, sacrifice the detail in favor of sheer scale. Certainly doesnt take away much from his abilities as a leader.

 

Believe it or not, many would say that viewing everyone as a pawn makes you a poorer leader, not a better one.

 

After all it is not the flaws of certain Primarchs that brought the Heresy unto Imerium but in fact the Fell Powers. The flaws helped - they gave Chaos Gods leverage but on their own werent enough. Some blame can be placed on E, but of all the guilty parties(E, Chaos and the primarch in question) the E-man gets by far the least.

 

Alpharius, Curze, Mortarion, Magnus, Perturabo - all initially revolted without influence from Chaos, because they were more loyal to Horus than the Emperor (Alpharius' new fluff requires that he be the biggest moron ever conceived, which does not jive with previous and current characterization. Also, Omegon is a stupid, stupid idea). Hell, Lorgar was rebelling without the influence of Chaos in that he willingly turned to it. Only Fulgrim and Horus were really corrupted against their will.

 

Addendum to previous: Magnus got attacked by the Emperor, but his use of sorcery still lacked Chaos influence.

 

Seems to me that when that many your kids rebel against you willingly, you should change something.

 

* * *

 

Horus joined because the Emperor wouldn't tell him his secrets, Angron for a percieved slight against his honour, Lorgar because he was told off for worhsipping the Emperor. Imagine it, if God told you off for worshipping him, would you then go off and worship the Devil? Is that a reasonable reaction?

 

1) Actually, if you read anything decent, he joined because he was basically poisoned and then corrupted while delusional. Possibly some resentment over the Emperor getting all the glory while he was doing all the work.

 

Don't buy into the "HH is official" crap, kids. It's Black Library, and the only person who's said it was official was Dan Abnett, who has long ago sunk into thinking he's more important than he is.

 

2) Really? The slaughter of his entire army and his enslavement count as more than slights against his honor. It could be argued that he may well have perceived the Emperor's drafting of him as another enslavement, and simply done what he did the previous time - bided his time.

 

3) It would be when you seem to have a compulsive need to worship something.

 

The Emperor made it pretty clear why he didn't seem to like religion, so why should Lorgar not understand this?

 

Really? When did he do this? He told Lorgar not to worship him because he should be conquering faster. He might have slipped in a note about not being a god.

 

This is not a full and complete explanation of why religion is dangerous in 40K.

 

For the rest, their reactions were pitiful at best, and downright pathetic at worst. Angron should have just challenged the Emperor to mortal combat, or refused to lead his legion,

 

He did the latter. All it got him was kidnapped.

 

Clearly, if he challenges such a man to mortal combat, it'll be accepted and there will be a fair fight.

 

On the other hand, if he takes the damn army, makes it loyal, and waits...

 

He could have perhaps warned the Primarchs about Chaos, but the consensus amongst people in the know is that the more you know about Chaos the worse things get.

 

On the other hand, not knowing it exists at all seems more dangerous...

 

Which is better 'oh, this is the evil the Emperor warned me about' or 'oh, what is this new thing promising me everything!'.

 

Whether people actually agree with that is irrelevant, because as the Heresy showed about half of the primarchs were very corruptible, and knowledge of Chaos has never been a good ward against the Dark Gods.

 

Actually, it showed some of the Primarchs were corruptible. Curze, Alpharius, Perturabo and Mortarion all did very little to promote the worship of Chaos. Fulgrim required either days of torture and "physical bribery" or daemonic possession, depending on if you believe the good fluff or the bad. Magnus had to be attacked by the forces of the Emperor.

 

Lorgar turns of his own will. Angron likely does. Horus sort of does. That's it. Everyone else is coerced, forced into a corner, or doesn't seem to be particularly interested in the Chaos end of the Heresy.

 

The Emperor may have certainly tried helping Angron fight against his enemies on his home planet, but we know so little of the circumstances that it is mere conjecture that the Emperor would have been able to make a difference.

 

The only limiting circumstance is how many ships the Emperor had with him. It seems vastly improbably he went anywhere without a significant Space Marine bodyguard - meaning that he has enough troops to, with help from said gladiators, wipe out the enemy army.

 

The fluff certainly seems to point in the direction that the Emperor did plan the Horus Heresy, in which case the argument that the Emperor made mistakes is moot.

 

...What? The second bit is certainly true, but the first...

 

Why would he want the Heresy? If he did want it, why would he fight it so stupidly? If he did want to fight it that stupidly, why would he nearly get himself killed? If he did want to get himself killed, why would he not actually do it right? If he was in no position to do it right, why tell Dorn how to make the Golden Throne?

[Captain Leonidas]

1) Actually, if you read anything decent, he joined because he was basically poisoned and then corrupted while delusional. Possibly some resentment over the Emperor getting all the glory while he was doing all the work.

 

Don't buy into the "HH is official" crap, kids. It's Black Library, and the only person who's said it was official was Dan Abnett, who has long ago sunk into thinking he's more important than he is.

 

I don't see why anything the Black Library does isn't official. It's not as if they go out of their way to contradict established fluff any more than any of the game designers and codex writers, and any occassions where there does seem to be a contradiction can be mostly put down to misinformation and subjectivity. I feel that a large part of the reason why some say the Black Library material isn't official is because it would infuriate some people who love to come up with their own interpretations of fluff, regardless of how absurd or far-fetched.

 

2) Really? The slaughter of his entire army and his enslavement count as more than slights against his honor. It could be argued that he may well have perceived the Emperor's drafting of him as another enslavement, and simply done what he did the previous time - bided his time.

 

I was referencing Index Astartes 3, which pretty clearly states that he felt his martial honour had been stained. Of course the Index Astartes series is not a definitive objective source on the subject, but I was giving a pretty well established reason as to why Angron hated the Emperor. The short story in the Tales of Heresy also suggests that Angron wanted to repay the Emperor for the death of his comrades, but then that same story also portrays Angron as attacking his own marines that had nothing to do with Angron's kidnapping, so I think this incident can be viewed equally from bith perspectives.

 

3) It would be when you seem to have a compulsive need to worship something.

 

Then it would be Lorgar's fault for turning to Chaos, if it is his own addictions that lead him there. The Emperor can tell him not to worhsip him, the Emperor can even offer to teach Lorgar in the ways of atheism, but Lorgar has to be willing or he damns himself. He made his choice, and now he rots in a hellish nightmare realm worshipping false gods. Serves him right.

 

Really? When did he do this? He told Lorgar not to worship him because he should be conquering faster. He might have slipped in a note about not being a god.

 

This is not a full and complete explanation of why religion is dangerous in 40K.

 

Again, there is established fluff which suggests that the Emperor has explained in the past why religion is dangerous, and all Lorgar had to do was listen. He chose not to.

 

He did the latter. All it got him was kidnapped.

 

Clearly, if he challenges such a man to mortal combat, it'll be accepted and there will be a fair fight.

 

On the other hand, if he takes the damn army, makes it loyal, and waits...

 

In the former, Anrgon could punish the man responsible. In the latter, he could take revenge on the entire galaxy. Speaking in terms of proportions here, which seems more reasonable in light of the fact that nearly the entire galaxy had nothing to do with what happened to Angron?

 

On the other hand, not knowing it exists at all seems more dangerous...

 

Which is better 'oh, this is the evil the Emperor warned me about' or 'oh, what is this new thing promising me everything!'.

 

Very true, however the Emperor obviously thought one was better than the other to achieve his goals. He had his reasons, just like the Primarchs had theirs.

 

The only limiting circumstance is how many ships the Emperor had with him. It seems vastly improbably he went anywhere without a significant Space Marine bodyguard - meaning that he has enough troops to, with help from said gladiators, wipe out the enemy army.

 

Depends upon how early in the crusade it is and how deep Angron is into enemy territory. The Emperor retreating to Terra with an entire legion seemed to surprise most of the Primarchs, so maybe the Emperor being accompanied by a massive bodyguard is relatively unheard of. He confronted Leman Russ all on his own. In any case, we can't be sure because we weren't there and the facts of the matter are not available. Under these circumstances, I choose not to judge the Emperor's actions.

 

...What? The second bit is certainly true, but the first...

 

Why would he want the Heresy? If he did want it, why would he fight it so stupidly? If he did want to fight it that stupidly, why would he nearly get himself killed? If he did want to get himself killed, why would he not actually do it right? If he was in no position to do it right, why tell Dorn how to make the Golden Throne?

 

By engineering the Horus Heresy, not only does the Emperor ensure his own Godhood, but he covertly creates a religion around him which provides the only truly effective means of combating Chaos: faith. Under the constant threat of Chaos Legion attack, the Imperium is strengthened and now knows the face of the enemy. In essence, the Imperium has had its innocence painfully torn from it and taught the harshest lesson possible about the dangers of Chaos. By taking himself away from the machinations of the Imperium and appearing to sacrifice his mind and body, the Emperor is glorified and diefied in a way not possible if he were to just continue leading from the fore. Once the Emperor removes himself from effective leadership of the Imperium by his ascension, he has to maintain himself long enough for the Imperium to survive so that its inhabitants will continue worshipping him, thus necessitating the use of a life support machine, which he has already conveniently built for himself. But even this can not last forever, for the Emperor has to fully pass on for his Godhood to become complete, and when that happens, either by the Golden Throne ceasing to work, or by Abaddon ripping him from it, the Emperor's primary gaol will have been achieved and as a fully fledged God of a galaxy he will balance Chaos and bring about the Rhana Dhandra.

 

All sorts of questions begin to make sense when this is taken into consideration. Why did he only begin to reinforce Terra once Horus was declared Warmaster? The Emperor has to ensure the defences of Terra are adequate enough to withstand Horus's armies for approximately 55 days, but not so strong that Horus would be defeated outright. Why did he choose Horus as warmaster and not someone else obviously more suitable such as Guilliman or Sanguinus? Because neither of these would have become corrupted by Chaos thus defying the point. Why does the Emperor not do all the things that people suggest the he should have done in relation to the Primarchs, which is the basis for this thread? Because if he had, the Horus Heresy never would have happened, but he did want it to happen, so he sacrificed them to achieve his goals. Why does this obviously ruthless being refuse to fight Horus properly on his battle barge, despite all the obvious signs that Horus was beyond redemption? Because if he had, then he would have won, and he would not have been worshipped as a God by so many people. Why did it take so long for the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines to reach Terra? The Emperor has shown the ability in fluff to calm the Warp, and he used to power the Astronomican with his mind alone, so its not unreasonable to assume that he can also create turbulance in the Warp and slow down his own reinforcements.

 

There's a piece of fluff somewhere that suggests that the Emperor and Tzeentch are busy playing the galaxy's deadliest game of chess with each other, and that when one of them makes a mistake, they will lose everything. The exact quote suggests that the Emperor has yet to make such a mistake, which suggests that things have gone exactly as he wanted. This certainly seems to coincide with other Imperial events, such as the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath and the reformation of the Ecclesiarchy, the presence of Living Saints, etc. This would surely also be true of the Horus Heresy, the most pivotal of all Imperial events.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I don't see why anything the Black Library does isn't official. It's not as if they go out of their way to contradict established fluff any more than any of the game designers and codex writers,

The Design Studio has license to, after all it is their job. BL does not have to adhere to Studio fluff, but they will have to if they expect the Studio to endorse it.

 

I feel that a large part of the reason why some say the Black Library material isn't official is because it would infuriate some people who love to come up with their own interpretations of fluff, regardless of how absurd or far-fetched.

 

If it was official, it would also infuriate those people who don't buy into the author's interpretation of fluff. Especially due to those authors who love to come up with their own interpretations of fluff, regardless of how absurd or far-fetched.

 

Don't buy into the "HH is official" crap, kids. It's Black Library, and the only person who's said it was official was Dan Abnett, who has long ago sunk into thinking he's more important than he is.

 

Mind you, he does have one of the best records on adhering to Studio fluff. Perhaps that influences how people percieve that statement. If someone like Ben Counter had said it, it would have been laughed off the floor.

 

There's a piece of fluff somewhere that suggests that the Emperor and Tzeentch are busy playing the galaxy's deadliest game of chess with each other, and that when one of them makes a mistake, they will lose everything.

 

There are other manipulators at work in the 40k universe. The C'tan Deciever for example, who orchestrated the Gothic War in order to put the Blackstone Fortresses beyond the reach of the Eldar. The Eldar themselves, who orchestrated the Ork Wars of Armageddon by making sure Ghazghull rose to prominence.

[Octavulg]

I don't see why anything the Black Library does isn't official. It's not as if they go out of their way to contradict established fluff any more than any of the game designers and codex writers, and any occassions where there does seem to be a contradiction can be mostly put down to misinformation and subjectivity. I feel that a large part of the reason why some say the Black Library material isn't official is because it would infuriate some people who love to come up with their own interpretations of fluff, regardless of how absurd or far-fetched.

 

Because the codex stuff is produced by the Studio, and thus is not an unaffiliated subcontractor's view of the universe?

 

Alternately, it's not official because large chunks of it are badly written, it often contradicts other fluff, and it has been stated by the editor of the Black Library to have no need to remain consistent with other Black Library works.

 

Again, there is established fluff which suggests that the Emperor has explained in the past why religion is dangerous, and all Lorgar had to do was listen. He chose not to.

 

What fluff is this, pray...

 

In the former, Anrgon could punish the man responsible. In the latter, he could take revenge on the entire galaxy. Speaking in terms of proportions here, which seems more reasonable in light of the fact that nearly the entire galaxy had nothing to do with what happened to Angron?

 

You're assuming that the Emperor would have accepted such a challenge. Considering his behavior, it seems unlikely that he would.

 

Also, the entire galaxy worships/follows the Emperor...

 

Very true, however the Emperor obviously thought one was better than the other to achieve his goals. He had his reasons, just like the Primarchs had theirs.

 

Alternately, the Emperor didn't think of it, because he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

 

Depends upon how early in the crusade it is and how deep Angron is into enemy territory. The Emperor retreating to Terra with an entire legion seemed to surprise most of the Primarchs, so maybe the Emperor being accompanied by a massive bodyguard is relatively unheard of. He confronted Leman Russ all on his own. In any case, we can't be sure because we weren't there and the facts of the matter are not available. Under these circumstances, I choose not to judge the Emperor's actions.

 

Considering what those actions eventually lead to and the sheer idiocy of some parts of them (I know! I'll kidnap him in his SLEEP!), I think we can judge quite handily.

 

Furthermore, he confronted Russ on his own. This does not mean he did not have other forces with him (in orbit, say).

 

Why did he choose Horus as warmaster and not someone else obviously more suitable such as Guilliman or Sanguinus?

 

Now that's a subjective statement if I ever heard one.

 

Because neither of these would have become corrupted by Chaos thus defying the point.

 

A very large assumption. Both are at least as vulnerable as Horus was (Guilliman's got arrogance in spades, and Sanguinius is a mutant, fertheluvvagawd).

 

Because if he had, the Horus Heresy never would have happened, but he did want it to happen, so he sacrificed them to achieve his goals.

 

The Heresy relies heavily on Horus' corruption by Chaos, which happened in a rather random fashion.

 

Because if he had, then he would have won, and he would not have been worshipped as a God by so many people.

 

Oh? The Emperor defeats the manifestation of all the evil in the universe and isn't even scratched?

 

I'd say that'd make him more worshippable, not less.

 

Why did it take so long for the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines to reach Terra?

 

Because they were fighting heretics most of the way?

 

There's a piece of fluff somewhere that suggests that the Emperor and Tzeentch are busy playing the galaxy's deadliest game of chess with each other, and that when one of them makes a mistake, they will lose everything. The exact quote suggests that the Emperor has yet to make such a mistake, which suggests that things have gone exactly as he wanted. This certainly seems to coincide with other Imperial events, such as the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath and the reformation of the Ecclesiarchy, the presence of Living Saints, etc. This would surely also be true of the Horus Heresy, the most pivotal of all Imperial events.

 

Living Saints may simply be products of their own belief in the Emperor.

 

Don't suppose you could find it? This'd make a dandy Librarium article.

[Captain Leonidas]

If it was official, it would also infuriate those people who don't buy into the author's interpretation of fluff. Especially due to those authors who love to come up with their own interpretations of fluff, regardless of how absurd or far-fetched.

 

Arguably the same problem exists with the game designers and codex writers a.k.a Codex: Space Marines.

 

There are other manipulators at work in the 40k universe. The C'tan Deciever for example, who orchestrated the Gothic War in order to put the Blackstone Fortresses beyond the reach of the Eldar. The Eldar themselves, who orchestrated the Ork Wars of Armageddon by making sure Ghazghull rose to prominence.

 

Perfectly true, but the Eldar are a dying race that sometimes gets things wrong, and both Tzeentch and the Emperor are likely more powerful than the Deciever, who even at his prime was not a match for the Dragon.

 

Because the codex stuff is produced by the Studio, and thus is not an unaffiliated subcontractor's view of the universe?

 

Alternately, it's not official because large chunks of it are badly written, it often contradicts other fluff, and it has been stated by the editor of the Black Library to have no need to remain consistent with other Black Library works.

 

As stated above, the same problem exists with the game and codexes. Every new game designer and codex author just writes what they want and it is often inconsistant, even with things that shouldn't be inconsistant like the locations of planets. Arguably the game is the most inconsistant aspect of 40K, since what things actually do in the game, especially many weapons, changes on an edition by edition basis. And since both the Studio and Black Library are owned by Games Workshop, I hold them in equal weight.

 

What fluff is this, pray...

 

Read Tales of Heresy.

 

You're assuming that the Emperor would have accepted such a challenge. Considering his behavior, it seems unlikely that he would.

 

Also, the entire galaxy worships/follows the Emperor...

 

So take it out on the innocent civilians, just because of affiliation. This could be construed as justification of terrorism or genocide if it were real...

 

Alternately, the Emperor didn't think of it, because he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

 

Possibly, but then again this is also possible for the Primarchs as well, which leads us nowhere.

 

Considering what those actions eventually lead to and the sheer idiocy of some parts of them (I know! I'll kidnap him in his SLEEP!), I think we can judge quite handily.

 

You missed my point. We don't know the exact circumstances, so we can't judge. The Emperor may have had a very good reason, we don't know. I tend to try and not judge whether someone else is stupid based purely on myth and legend.

 

Why did he choose Horus as warmaster and not someone else obviously more suitable such as Guilliman or Sanguinus?

 

Now that's a subjective statement if I ever heard one.

 

Explain to me exactly what our opinions are if not subjective? You do not attain objectivity by decrying the Emperor as stupid, and neither do I by suggesting that someone else may have been a better Warmaster considering the events that were to come. Even Horus thought Sanguinus should have been Warmaster, and some thought Gulliman might get it as the supposed best strategist and logistician in the Imperium. Horus was a leader pure and simple, and he happened to have the Emperor as a nice big reference, but when push came to shove he fell, unlike Sanguinus and Gulliman. Do I need to explain myself further?

 

The Heresy relies heavily on Horus' corruption by Chaos, which happened in a rather random fashion.

 

I don't quite know what's so random about sending an emissary to sow the seeds of doubt in his head and then preparing a trap on Davin by stealing a potent weapon on another planet and using it against him, then sending him off to a pre-prepared Chaos cult to corrupt him.

 

Oh? The Emperor defeats the manifestation of all the evil in the universe and isn't even scratched?

 

I'd say that'd make him more worshippable, not less.

 

Actually, the more that has to be sacrificed, the greater the percieved evil. If the Emperor could have just destroyed Horus outright, then Horus isn't that much of an evil enemy. As I already stated, by sacrificing mind and body, the Emperor makes the sacrifice seem greater, and people worship him for it. Jesus supposedly healed loads of people of "possession", but he is worshipped for his sacrifice on the cross. Need I say more?

 

Because they were fighting heretics most of the way?

 

I seem to remember some fluff that suggested that the Warp was particularly turbulent on the way to Terra, which in part encouraged Russ and Jonson to stop by lots of planets instead of making more headway, which contrasts the relative ease with which the Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Blood Angels were able to retreat there.

 

Living Saints may simply be products of their own belief in the Emperor.

 

But they usually require something to believe in, and a deity to grant them gifts and favours. Chaos has its champions, and the Emperor has his, and they both work on a similar principle.

 

Don't suppose you could find it?

 

I think it was supposed to be either Lost and the Damned or Slaves to Darkness. It used to be quoted quite a lot back on the Black Library whenever an Emperor discussion came up.

[Octavulg]

So take it out on the innocent civilians, just because of affiliation. This could be construed as justification of terrorism or genocide if it were real...

 

You're the one saying that the Emperor's going to use his sons as pawns to drive the galaxy to worship him. That's gonna kill far more people than Angron could.

 

Indeed, Angron's only going to kill people on the other side to achieve his goals...

 

You missed my point. We don't know the exact circumstances, so we can't judge. The Emperor may have had a very good reason, we don't know. I tend to try and not judge whether someone else is stupid based purely on myth and legend.

 

Since that's all we've got, it's the only thing to judge him by.

 

Explain to me exactly what our opinions are if not subjective? You do not attain objectivity by decrying the Emperor as stupid, and neither do I by suggesting that someone else may have been a better Warmaster considering the events that were to come.

 

Decrying the Emperor as stupid for kidnapping someone in his sleep and expecting loyalty?

 

That's not a subjective judgement - that's stupid by pretty much any measure.

 

Furthermore, it's already been pointed out in another thread the myriad reasons Guilliman likely wouldn't have been a better Warmaster. Ditto Sanguinius (he's not particularly gifted strategically, beyond the usual Primarch=quite impressive).

 

IIRC, the IA Luna Wolves points out that Horus was by far more strategically gifted than the other Primarchs. Including Guilliman.

 

I don't quite know what's so random about sending an emissary to sow the seeds of doubt in his head and then preparing a trap on Davin by stealing a potent weapon on another planet and using it against him, then sending him off to a pre-prepared Chaos cult to corrupt him.

 

OK, I'm not even bothering any more.

 

The Black Library is not canon. Deal with it. It is inconsistently written, relies over-heavily on idiocy on the part of its protagonists, and has never been acknowledged as official by anyone other than one of the authors - which is a little circular.

 

Actually, the more that has to be sacrificed, the greater the percieved evil. If the Emperor could have just destroyed Horus outright, then Horus isn't that much of an evil enemy. As I already stated, by sacrificing mind and body, the Emperor makes the sacrifice seem greater, and people worship him for it.

 

However, by defeating evil so handily, he demonstrates its ineffectiveness to people and they worship him because he's clearly stronger.

 

One way relies on gratitude, the other on pragmatism.

 

I seem to remember some fluff that suggested that the Warp was particularly turbulent on the way to Terra, which in part encouraged Russ and Jonson to stop by lots of planets instead of making more headway, which contrasts the relative ease with which the Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Blood Angels were able to retreat there.

 

IIRC, it was that all three were much further away than the three Legions who defended Terra.

 

But they usually require something to believe in, and a deity to grant them gifts and favours. Chaos has its champions, and the Emperor has his, and they both work on a similar principle.

 

Do they require a deity? After all, this is 40K. Their own belief might be enough to allow them to do the things they do.

 

I think it was supposed to be either Lost and the Damned or Slaves to Darkness. It used to be quoted quite a lot back on the Black Library whenever an Emperor discussion came up.

 

Damn. Don't have either.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, and in the context of the original question, him using his sons to cause the Heresy in order to get himself worshipped like a God'd make him a really bad parent.

[Marshal Rohr]

Black Library is canon. There is no disputing it, it is the only insight we have to what actually happened. All the other 40K stuff like those stupid IA's are from the perspective of looking back, not what was actually happened, you can't hide you true motives and true events from an omniscient narrator.

 

The IA's and HH books are not mutually exclusive, but the Horus Heresy book are what happened.

[Hazard]

Octavulg is back to denying fluff, making gigantic leaps of faith and generaly rewrtitting Warhammer 40K into Waroctavulg 40K...

 

Let's make a poll! With one simple question - Horus heresy pent up teen angst or Chaos Gods doing?

 

That would put all the "primarchs rebeled on their own accord" tripe to rest.

[Octavulg]

Says who, pray tell?

 

Also, the IA series has yet to have any character accepting with incredible credulity things told to them by:

 

Eldar

Chaos

Both

 

So calling them stupid? A poor choice.

[Hazard]

IA is on it's way out, in regards to the Heresy. Since we have quite a lot of time left before the series are over some Index Astartes article will remain viable if vauge source of fluff.

 

HH > IA. Thanks, bye

[Octavulg]

IAs - written in studio. Confirmed as official via their publication in White Dwarf.

 

HH - written out of studio. Confirmed as official by Dan Abnett, the man who brought us Omegon.

 

IAs - vague, but generally consistent. Rely rarely upon idiocy.

 

HH - Specific, but sometimes inconsistent. Rely heavily upon idiocy.

 

The score looks a little different from where I sit.

[Captain Leonidas]

You're the one saying that the Emperor's going to use his sons as pawns to drive the galaxy to worship him. That's gonna kill far more people than Angron could.

 

Indeed, Angron's only going to kill people on the other side to achieve his goals...

 

I never said that the Emperor was justified in his actions, yet the whole point of this thread and your argument is that Angron was very justified in his actions.

 

And since Angorn follows the Blood God, he will kill everyone. It doesn't matter from where the blood comes. So long as it flows.

 

Since that's all we've got, it's the only thing to judge him by.

 

So rather than reserving judgement we just judge at the first opportunity without any corroborating evidence? Where I come from, people are innocent until proven guilty. You could perhaps extend to the Emperor and company the same courtesy?

 

Decrying the Emperor as stupid for kidnapping someone in his sleep and expecting loyalty?

 

That's not a subjective judgement - that's stupid by pretty much any measure.

 

Unless he didn't really expect loyalty, per my argument.

 

Furthermore, it's already been pointed out in another thread the myriad reasons Guilliman likely wouldn't have been a better Warmaster. Ditto Sanguinius (he's not particularly gifted strategically, beyond the usual Primarch=quite impressive).

 

So because some other people said so it must be true? I don't know the reasons given by others, but from the fluff Horus engineered Gulliman to be far away because he feared his abilities as a strategist and logistician would swing the conflict in the Emperor's favour. And from his own mouth, Horus believed Sanguinus to embody the Emperor more than any other Primarch. Horus knew how to use people and inspire them. Even in the Index Astartes, he is said to have fueled the rivalry between the Blood Angels and World Eaters to achieve victory. But his ability to use people led to him having a big ego, which is something Corax despised, and as such Horus fell. Horus by default can not be a good warmaster if he betrays the Imperium. So who would next fill the shoes? Sanguinus, Gulliman, Dorn, Jonson, and Russ all showed their worth in the crusade, but Jonson would never subordinate himself to Russ and vice versa. Dorn was however placed in charge of the Imperial defence when Horus turned, so perhaps he is also a good candidate.

 

IIRC, the IA Luna Wolves points out that Horus was by far more strategically gifted than the other Primarchs. Including Guilliman.

 

It mentions that he's a great strategist, and at one point elsewhere he is described as the greatest primarch, however the entire series is biased towards the respective viewpoints of the legions, so this is hardly surprising.

 

The Black Library is not canon. Deal with it. It is inconsistently written, relies over-heavily on idiocy on the part of its protagonists, and has never been acknowledged as official by anyone other than one of the authors - which is a little circular.

 

It doesn't sound like it's me thats got something to get over. I'm perfectly secure in the legitimacy of the black library novels as cannon. There has been significant crossing between games and codex designers and black library authors over the years, so it seems somewhat circumspect that somehow one particular aspect is inferior to the rest, especially considering how any and all problems that afflict black library fiction also affect everything else. Need I remind you that you have spent some time trying to argue that the Emperor, supposedly the greatest human ever, is essentially a retard, and all based on a series of articles published in White Dwarf of all places, a significant number of which are by black library authors. Where exactly is the logic in your position?

 

And just because it has never been acknowledged as official doesn't mean that it isn't. Perhaps GW were silly enough to assume that their audience might never have arguments about it.

 

However, by defeating evil so handily, he demonstrates its ineffectiveness to people and they worship him because he's clearly stronger.

 

Good nearly always triumphs over a terrible enemy, but at great sacrifice. It's an absurdly common theme for a reason. It's also significantly the basis for Christianity, the world's most popular religion, so it clearly works. If Jesus had just lived a normal life preaching his message would not have been nearly as profound or far reaching.

 

Also, the IA series has yet to have any character accepting with incredible credulity things told to them by:

 

Eldar

Chaos

Both

 

So calling them stupid? A poor choice.

 

Except Horus and 8 other primarchs when they fell to Chaos. Yeah, they never accepted what Chaos had to say right off the bat.

 

IAs - written in studio. Confirmed as official via their publication in White Dwarf.

 

Because a magazine which accepts amateur publications must be official. This is the same magazine which once had a short story about a titan stepping on a terminator by accident but incurring no real damage on said terminator anyway?

 

IAs - vague, but generally consistent. Rely rarely upon idiocy.

 

Except the whole falling to Chaos thing, and the kidnapping of Angron, and Sanguinus killing himself for no reason, Gulliman decrying Alpharius' obvious tactical and strategic acumen, Dorn attacking the Iron Cage alone when with back-up the Imperium could have destroyed the Iron Warriors and their primarch, the bit about the Night Lords leaving few civilized worlds unblemished (because they just conquered every world in those days), etc....

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus Heresy Series > Index Astartes, Descent of Angels and all.

[Octavulg]

Knowing how to make a ">" does not make you right, you know...

 

Just a point.

 

But just in case it does:

 

Octavulg > John Lennon.

 

* * *

 

I never said that the Emperor was justified in his actions, yet the whole point of this thread and your argument is that Angron was very justified in his actions.

 

More that Angron's actions are understandable, and easily prevented by the Emperor, who had both the ability, the opportunity, and presumably the motive.

 

His failure to do so is thus rather negligent.

 

So rather than reserving judgement we just judge at the first opportunity without any corroborating evidence? Where I come from, people are innocent until proven guilty. You could perhaps extend to the Emperor and company the same courtesy?

 

40K. Guilty until proven innocent, and sometimes even then.

 

Unless he didn't really expect loyalty, per my argument.

 

True.

 

However, you must admit: kidnapping=/=loyalty

 

Therefore, anyone who expects it to is stupid.

 

The Emperor is stupid IF he expected kidnapping him to produce a loyal soldier.

 

So because some other people said so it must be true?

 

No, because the thread is still on the front page and damned if I was going to repeat the entire thing for you. Apparently, I must, though...

 

I don't know the reasons given by others, but from the fluff Horus engineered Gulliman to be far away because he feared his abilities as a strategist and logistician would swing the conflict in the Emperor's favour.

 

Also, lots o lots o lots o lots o Ultramarines.

 

And from his own mouth, Horus believed Sanguinus to embody the Emperor more than any other Primarch. Horus knew how to use people and inspire them.

 

Doesn't that mean Horus embodies the Emperor better than any other Primarch, by your logic? :P

 

So who would next fill the shoes? Sanguinus, Gulliman, Dorn, Jonson, and Russ all showed their worth in the crusade, but Jonson would never subordinate himself to Russ and vice versa. Dorn was however placed in charge of the Imperial defence when Horus turned, so perhaps he is also a good candidate.

 

Actually, the Russ-Jonson thing happened after Horus was Warmaster (IIRC). Thus, wouldn't they be willing to serve under the other?

 

I don't think Dorn's necessarily that capable. By your argument, he doesn't need to be the best - he's just the one who will produce the results the Emperor wanted. By my argument, he may have just been chosen out of convenience in the Emperor's grief.

 

Sanguinius is capable, but I'm sure Horus is far more skilled strategically. Saying "oh, he'll be a traitor later" is a bit of a cop-out...

 

Also, Horus' traitordom is in no way assured in either IA or HH series. In the one, it's almost sheer happenstance. IOn the other, an involved plot by Chaos - it seems probable that one could have been concocted for any Primarch...

 

It mentions that he's a great strategist, and at one point elsewhere he is described as the greatest primarch, however the entire series is biased towards the respective viewpoints of the legions, so this is hardly surprising.

 

I've never found the series particularly biased (beyond large chunks of IA: Alpha Legion). Indeed, it often points out things that weren't that nice about the legions.

 

Plus, considering they're (sort of) supposed to be Imperial records, bias would seem a bit odd.

 

And just because it has never been acknowledged as official doesn't mean that it isn't. Perhaps GW were silly enough to assume that their audience might never have arguments about it.

 

Indeed.

 

Also, I think the Emperor's arrogant and not as smart as he thinks he is. This is markedly different from being a retard, a term which I find used overly often in this debate. There is, after all, a 50% chance that the person using it is going to come out looking like one.

 

50% chance I will, of course...;)

 

Good nearly always triumphs over a terrible enemy, but at great sacrifice. It's an absurdly common theme for a reason. It's also significantly the basis for Christianity, the world's most popular religion, so it clearly works. If Jesus had just lived a normal life preaching his message would not have been nearly as profound or far reaching.

 

Jesus didn't conquer a galaxy. :P

 

Except Horus and 8 other primarchs when they fell to Chaos. Yeah, they never accepted what Chaos had to say right off the bat.

 

...OK

 

Horus falls, IIRC, after being corrupted by Chaos rituals on Davin. He was also ill or wounded or poisoned or somesuch, which made him more susceptible. Angron is, well, Angron, and the reasons he'd turn to Khorne are pretty obvious. Lorgar is a religious fanatic looking for a God, who already had a Chaos worshipper in his confidence. Fulgrim is tortured/debauched into half-insanity first. The others all follow Horus, then become corrupted (except Curze, who wasn't corrupted at all...).

 

Because a magazine which accepts amateur publications must be official. This is the same magazine which once had a short story about a titan stepping on a terminator by accident but incurring no real damage on said terminator anyway?

 

Ripped the armor open, wounding the Space Wolf inside. He survived.

 

Also, rubble compresses. It's not entirely unthinkable, provided the rubble were not fully compressed initially and the Wolf wasn't directly under the foot.

 

Also, isn't that in a Codex somewhere, too? I've read it lately, and I don't read WD that much...

 

and the kidnapping of Angron,

 

One. By one person. Who, as others have pointed out, has a lot to think about, and a lot of reason to assume that Angron'll just fall down and worship him anyway.

 

and Sanguinus killing himself for no reason,

 

You mean Sanguinius being separated from everyone else on the ship by the machinations of Chaos, running into Horus by accident, and still wounding him?

 

Gulliman decrying Alpharius' obvious tactical and strategic acumen,

 

Because Guilliman never acted arrogantly anywhere else. He's portrayed as something of a jerk throughout the IA series. See when he presents the Codex (my favorite bit is where he calls Dorn a heretic!).

 

Dorn attacking the Iron Cage alone when with back-up the Imperium could have destroyed the Iron Warriors and their primarch,

 

You mean the grief-stricken Dorn who attacked his nemesis after having everything he had worked for taken away from him? The grief-stricken Dorn who has a marked tendency to self-sacrifice, and arrived only slightly too late to save his father from being mortally wounded? The Dorn who had seen large chunks of his legion destroyed and stared into the mouth of madness? Who had been called a heretic by a man who had not fought at the Horus Heresy and who knew things could not remain as they were? That the Great Crusade was over, and the Emperor's dream destroyed?

 

Yeah. That's inconsistent, alright.

 

the bit about the Night Lords leaving few civilized worlds unblemished (because they just conquered every world in those days), etc....

 

OK, I don't even know which bit you're talking about here...

 

Anyway, why not to trust Black Library:

 

It is simply not consistent. The only fluff that can be trusted within 40K (generally), is the vague stuff - for that very reason. Characters and events in Black Library novels are incredibly vulnerable to author fiat, the individual author's perspective on the universe, how much the author actually knows about the universe, and who the target audience of the novel is.

 

Two battles described vaguely may be described in Black Library novels in terms that are simply incompatible with each other - the battles cannot exist in the same universe. It is much easier to reconcile vague half-truths than specific ones, because the vague ones can be made to fit with each other.

 

As soon as things begin to be nailed down in 40K, it all starts to come apart at the seams - because internal consistency is understandably difficult to ensure. It thus seems far wiser to ignore the Black Library, which often attempts to nail things down and does so with wildly varying degrees of success.

 

Ceramite is a highly advanced compound which can resist, well, almost anything. It also, according to Brothers of the Snake can be worked in a smithy.

 

So do we throw out the book? That piece of information? None of it? The Black Library is riddled with this stuff.

 

So I ignore the lot of it, which is easier than trying to parse out the truth and the lies from pages of hyperbole and mediocre sound effects. :P

 

EDIT: And paying ten to fifteen dollars for the privilege.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Marshal2 Crusaders Posted Today, 09:31 PM

Black Library is canon. There is no disputing it, it is the only insight we have to what actually happened. All the other 40K stuff like those stupid IA's are from the perspective of looking back, not what was actually happened, you can't hide you true motives and true events from an omniscient narrator.

 

*Cough* Soul Drinkers *Cough*

 

And what about the Codicies? Hmm, my Codex: Space Marines says I can't have Marines with Multi-Lasers. Hang on, C S Goto says I can - therefore I shall. Screw the Codex, it's not what actually happened.

 

At least bother to judge each individual bit by it's own merits. Some of BL's work fits perfectly in the 40k universe, and people will have no problem accepting it as canon. Some may as well have been written about a different universe, and so is not considered canon. The same applies to the fluff in the codicies. Generalised statements like "BL is canon, Studio is not" and vice versa don't work, because there are glaring points where both have got it wrong.

 

So rather than reserving judgement we just judge at the first opportunity without any corroborating evidence? Where I come from, people are innocent until proven guilty. You could perhaps extend to the Emperor and company the same courtesy?

 

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only proper judicial practice and presumption of innocence? :P I don't think so.

[voi shet magir]

Really? When did he do this? He told Lorgar not to worship him because he should be conquering faster. He might have slipped in a note about not being a god.

 

This is not a full and complete explanation of why religion is dangerous in 40K.

 

Hey, everyone, read this. The Emperor (outside of HH series) never said he was not a god, and the notion that he did is based entirely on this one Lorgar anecdote which is does not indicate anything of the kind and insisting that it does entirely misses the point. Every aspiring Emperor-type figure in history (Garibaldi maybe) has somewhat of a god complex and develops a personality cult. The Emperor could not have gotten anywhere without thinking he is War Jesus. If Octavulg is the one saying this and you are not, he might have basic reading comprehension a little better than yours, and you should have second thoughts about whether you know better.

 

 

As stated above, the same problem exists with the game and codexes. Every new game designer and codex author just writes what they want and it is often inconsistant, even with things that shouldn't be inconsistant like the locations of planets. Arguably the game is the most inconsistant aspect of 40K, since what things actually do in the game, especially many weapons, changes on an edition by edition basis. And since both the Studio and Black Library are owned by Games Workshop, I hold them in equal weight.

 

Dear Bingo Bob, the read lines all over this are a clue to quit propulgating your constant and consistent elision. aaaaaand ad hominem

[Marshal Rohr]

I was referring to the Horus Heresy, in context, the Horus Heresy series is canon.

[Sons of Horus]

HH series is not canon if you ask me for the same reasons stated by octavulg.

 

the emperor seems to think that humanity is more important and so he goes off to create the human webway without explaining things to the primarchs. he thinks they'll be fine on their own and treats them like expendable pawns. this is where he goes wrong. by treating them as such, instead of saving humanity with 'more important' things he creates traitors. he thinks the primarchs aren't so important? well who just wiped out over half your imperium and plunged humanity into an age worse than anything it has experienced before? that's riiiiiight, your so called tools did.

[Marshal Rohr]

Really, an entire series devoted to getting us into the background and mindset of the major players of the Heresy is actually just BS and what really happened will never be known? Really?

[Bannus]

Is the Black Library material canon?

 

According to GW - yes.

 

Is the Black Library material accurate?

 

According to GW - like all history, it is filled with mistruths and misinformation.

 

So while it is canon, the literature is written from the perspective of the partipants and not always as "fact".