Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 bannus Posted Today, 02:57 PM Is the Black Library material canon? According to GW - yes. Is the Black Library material accurate? According to GW - like all history, it is filled with mistruths and misinformation. So while it is canon, the literature is written from the perspective of the partipants and not always as "fact". And even worse, some of us (including me :) ) use 'canon' and 'fact' interchangeably when describing 40k 'facts'. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166069-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-1961217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 You can't write it of as history and mistruth whenever it describes in great detail things like Erebus stealing the anathame or the fact the Raven Guard conquered Istvaan III first, then say 'oh no' thats not actually what happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166069-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-1961467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Leonidas Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 40K. Guilty until proven innocent, and sometimes even then. We don't live in 40K, so your point is lost on me. No, because the thread is still on the front page and damned if I was going to repeat the entire thing for you. Apparently, I must, though... I didn't see that thread. I only got so far as this one. Having perused the thread, many interesting points were made, however my point still stands. Whether 10 or 100 or 1000 people on this forum regard Gulliman as not being suitable for the role is irrelevant. Popular belief does not equal fact. The only people who can answer the question are either fictional or don't particularly care. The fact of the matter is Horus fell while Gulliman rebuilt from the ashes. Doesn't that mean Horus embodies the Emperor better than any other Primarch, by your logic? tongue.gif By my logic, probably. By Horus' logic, no. Also, Horus' traitordom is in no way assured in either IA or HH series. In the one, it's almost sheer happenstance. IOn the other, an involved plot by Chaos - it seems probable that one could have been concocted for any Primarch... Well since Tzeentch is the master of fate and weaver of the future, I highly doubt he made these things happen by accident. Chaos is not the kind of force that works by happenstance. And even though feasibly Chaos could have tried corrupting any primarch, usually a person has to have something within them that allows Chaos to gain a foothold. Sanguinus was said to be an angel, and Horus couldn't turn him either, so I doubt Chaos could have corrupted Sanguinus even if they had tried. Also, lots o lots o lots o lots o Ultramarines. If Horus is such a great strategist then being a little outnumbered should be no problem for him, unless his opponent is also a great strategist and also a great logistician, in which case Horus would have great reason to be concerned about the involvement of the Ultramarines in the Siege of Terra. Don't forget that Horus also had many daemons on his side, which even the Ultramarines would find difficult to counter. I've never found the series particularly biased (beyond large chunks of IA: Alpha Legion). Indeed, it often points out things that weren't that nice about the legions. Except IA: Imperial Fists and IA: Iron Warriors (see Iron Cage incident and build up), and IA: Blood Angels, and IA: Dark Angels, etc... Plus, considering they're (sort of) supposed to be Imperial records, bias would seem a bit odd. Because the Imperium has never deleted records on purpose before to hide the truth? Because the Imperium would without a second thought let documents suggesting fallibility in the Emperor exist in the name of objectivity? It would be stranger if the Imperium wasn't biased. Jesus didn't conquer a galaxy. tongue.gif But his actions and words did conquer a world. On the other hand the Emperor had legions of superhumans and 20 demigods on his side, while the threat of Chaos is far greater than the threat posed by the Devil. Ergo a greater sacrifice is needed to overcome the greater evil and propagate martyr worship. Horus falls, IIRC, after being corrupted by Chaos rituals on Davin. He was also ill or wounded or poisoned or somesuch, which made him more susceptible. Angron is, well, Angron, and the reasons he'd turn to Khorne are pretty obvious. Lorgar is a religious fanatic looking for a God, who already had a Chaos worshipper in his confidence. Fulgrim is tortured/debauched into half-insanity first. The others all follow Horus, then become corrupted (except Curze, who wasn't corrupted at all...). The circumstances do not change the ease with which the traitor primarchs were corrupted by Chaos or Horus directly. The potential for rebellion was clearly already there. Magnus disobeyed direct orders from the Emperor not to engage in sorcery, Curze and Angron were censured for their brutal tactics, Mortarion is said to have been openly disloyal to the Emperor, Fulgrim was too obsessed with perfection, Perturabo was paranoid, and Horus had a huge manipulative self-important ego to bring it all together. Lorgar could arguably have been saved, but with a Chaos worshipper as his lieutenant he didn't stand much of a chance, and Alpharius (Omegon) is a no go area. Chaos merely gave these troubled people a means to the end. You mean Sanguinius being separated from everyone else on the ship by the machinations of Chaos, running into Horus by accident, and still wounding him? Sanguinus is claimed to have the ability to see the future, and knew full well what his fate would be, but did it out of loyalty. Now this poses some questions about why he didn't try predicting anything else that happened during the Heresy? In fact, why didn't the Emperor predict the betrayal of Horus if his powers of foresight are so great? Why? Because it sounds poetic. Because Guilliman never acted arrogantly anywhere else. He's portrayed as something of a jerk throughout the IA series. See when he presents the Codex (my favorite bit is where he calls Dorn a heretic!). Actually, only IA: Alpha Legion portrays Gulliman negatively, and we all know how reliable information related to the Alpha Legion is. You mean the grief-stricken Dorn who attacked his nemesis after having everything he had worked for taken away from him? The grief-stricken Dorn who has a marked tendency to self-sacrifice, and arrived only slightly too late to save his father from being mortally wounded? The Dorn who had seen large chunks of his legion destroyed and stared into the mouth of madness? Who had been called a heretic by a man who had not fought at the Horus Heresy and who knew things could not remain as they were? That the Great Crusade was over, and the Emperor's dream destroyed? Yeah. That's inconsistent, alright. Well the Emperor's dream certainly will be over if he so willingly sacrifices his legion to the Iron Warriors rather than trying to properly destroy them. It is simply not consistent. The only fluff that can be trusted within 40K (generally), is the vague stuff - for that very reason. Characters and events in Black Library novels are incredibly vulnerable to author fiat, the individual author's perspective on the universe, how much the author actually knows about the universe, and who the target audience of the novel is. Even the vague stuff is not infallible. Certain parts the Index Astartes contradict each other. Like the part where the Emperor is simultaneously on Terra and at Nikea? Like the part where the Emperor withdraws to Terra solely with the Imperial Fists but Leman Russ is there? Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th edition claims that the Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and Death Guard make up the second wave at Istvaan V, while IA: Iron Warriors claims that the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Word Bearers constituted the remainder of the second wave, and IA: Emperor's Children claims that the Emperor's Children were already on Istvaan V when the attacks began? IA: Night Lords claims that Curze destroyed his own planet, but apparantly the arm of Imperial Law responsible for punishing him is slower than the arm of Imperial Law sending him to fight Horus on Istvaan V? How wrong can you get something so simple? I've already mentioned the haphazard moving of planets on maps at whimsical discretion. The simple fact of the matter is that all humans make mistakes, and GW cares less about the integrity of its intellectual property than I do about someone I have never even heard of. That goes for ALL of GW. Ceramite is a highly advanced compound which can resist, well, almost anything. It also, according to Brothers of the Snake can be worked in a smithy. Yeah, like Adamantium never got defeated by anything in 40K. And what about the Codicies? Hmm, my Codex: Space Marines says I can't have Marines with Multi-Lasers. Hang on, C S Goto says I can - therefore I shall. Screw the Codex, it's not what actually happened. Actually, the Codex also implies that an Imperial Guardsmen with a rusty knife has a reasonable chance of taking down a Space Marine in power armour, so should Space Marines start worrying about any man that carries a pointy object? And I suppose newbie Tactical marines will be just as good at firing a bolter as their veteran sergeants, who will be just as good as the veterans in the 1st company, who will be just as good as Blood Angels Venerable Dreadnoughts? The same is also true for weapon skill and initiative? Because apparantly Space Marines don't improve in these regards until they are several hundred years old and have achieved command of a company? In terms of abiding by the canon, the codicies are the greatest load of crap in the history of GW, and make C S Goto look like a purist Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166069-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-1961791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Hey, I still field Marines with Lazers and Mr. Peanut dreadies! :| The table-top versus fluff thing, the morality of a "God"-King and BL canon versus no canon in one topic? :teehee: There is a strong possibility that the Deciever or Laughing God is having a good jest with us. When my heavy weapons trooper goes down in TT, that heavy weapon is done for. In real life, my LMG operator goes down, I get on the LMG; Heavy Bolters arent in the armory for GKs but in a non-TT situation where a GK is deprived of his weapons and sees a heavy bolter he isnt going to pick it up? Oh noes! Its not in the Codex! Obviously the most highly trained Space Marine force (GKs) in the galaxy doesnt know how to operate a heavy bolter. Heck, GKs never SEEN a heavy bolter before till that Deviant Art Picture. A Marine can operate Guard weapons? No way! Obviously he needs a Tech adept and 30 servitors to divine its purpose before the living breathing engine of war (Astartes) can figure out where the muzzle of the gun is. Especially since those weapons were developed specifically for use by any of the humans/ab-humans from a million worlds that could range from Feral to Hive in their makeup, and are probably made for simplicity and ease of use/operation to begin with. Big E probably was not a very nice man overall, not a very good parent, and still made very human errors in logic and human relations. Is he to blame? Of course! Buck stops at the Golden toilet. Are the Primarchs any less to blame? Everyone is to blame, but who is privileged and who is not? That really comes down to a matter of your own personal views ie. the nature/nurture stuff that has affected us all! Everyone sees the fluff differently as a consequence of their own experiences. Whether you see Guilliman as the Good/Evil Caesar crossing the Rubicon is really up to whether you personally think it was justified or not and why. That being said: Big E was a bad daddy, but uh, do genetically engineered super-duper-hyper beings really need daddies? Would it really have helped any if the Emperor is sitting there and raising them anyways? Russ had a single wolf mom turned out OK. The Lion had no one and turned into something, I think a loyalist. All the Primarchs with some sort of fleshed out Pre-Crusade history had a father or mother surrogate that I can recall, whether it was group, familial or animal pack with the exception of Curze and Angron. They didnt seem to turn out so good. However Horus had the Emperor and look how he turned out, although the HH "Emperor knows" conspiracy would say that was the intention all along. Canon go boom too! Look at all the words that exploded into this crazy thread! edit: loyalist lion part! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166069-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-1961969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 but that conspiracy would mean that the emperor wanted half the human race to die and half the survivors to turn to chaos :lol: he then also wanted most of the primarchs to die and apparently he also wanted to 'die' ;) the emperor is truly a funny man Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166069-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-1962152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Warning not =][= friendly in fact this is Heretical! but that conspiracy would mean that the emperor wanted half the human race to die and half the survivors to turn to chaos ;) he then also wanted most of the primarchs to die and apparently he also wanted to 'die' ;) the emperor is truly a funny man Actually when looked at from the right angel it makes a lot of sense. the Big E had future sight which is easily corrupted by the chaos gods. So one day the Big E says "what if I become a God?", and peers into the future. At this point the chaos gods sway his future sight to show him, some lovy dovy vision of the future with him as a god. He still being human and terfore not infallable believes this lie. Then the Big E sets plans in motion to get this vision to come about. However in doing this he actually causes the Heresy. :lol: Compares with Horus seeing a vision and beleiving it, maybe Horus was chosen for similarities to the emperor after all. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166069-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-1962177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 hey i like the way you think :) you're funny too ;) are you the emperor :o just kidding Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166069-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-1963356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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