ArcticFox Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hello Brothers, So I've been thinking, ever since I read Galaxy in Flames, that maybe... just maybe... Horus was told the truth about a couple of things during his "vision quest" on Davin. He was shown the future as it actually turned out, with the Emperor venerated as a god, the Primarchs made into colossal statues, and no mention of Horus himself. Now, we know that this was actually the future as a result of the Heresy that Horus himself would trigger, but I wonder... WAS the Emperor truly seeking goodhood? Yes, I know that Imperial Truth, as it was being taught just before the Heresy, was that the Emperor was no god and that he himself refused to allow people to call him that, and that's why the Lectitio Divinatus was outlawed, but I can't help thinking back to Shakespeare's Julius Caesar when they were trying to put the crown of Emperor on Caesar's head and he refused it, but he was clearly playing to the crowd and actually wanted it all along. What say you, were some of Horus' concerns actually justified? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 lol i would normally be biased here but i actually think that the emperor really was not seeking godhood at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1955560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I don't think he was trying to ascend to godhood, because he was trying to destroy the Chaos gods. Also while Horus had those visions The Emperor was building the Human webway. In all I don't really think the Emperor wanted godhood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1955733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyp100 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 What I am more intrested in, is that they said there was an afterlife, which I figure is the warp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1955906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto2071 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 agreed with the otehrs about him not seeknig godhood~it's a very good theory though and the parallel couldve been uncanny Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1955918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I will join you, brothers, in the opinion that The Emperor was not looking for godhood. I am sure that he was looking for the greater good for humanity, as he prohibited any religion (and referring to him as a god), with the excuse for AdMech. As we may see in numerous BL novels and fluff, a lot of local religions worshipped their gods (in some cases their god was the reflection of the Emperor) and it turned to be that those gods were nothing more like Daemons or Chaos Gods. So in his aim to prohibit any religion in god-like persons he was trying to isolate humans from warp influence, thus saving them. Regarding Horus. He was shown the truth, but it could become true only if Horus believed in it. He did not resist to those visions. For example, Sanguinius or Dorn would never accept such visions, thus making them lies, while Horus' belief in what he saw made the lies become truth. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1956624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDraco Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 What Horus is shown is, in true Chaos fashion, truth mixed with lies. From what we are told his vision, regarding the future of mankind IS actually the future that will occur if he begins the Heresy, but he believes it to be the future if he does not commit the Heresy. This still works for the Chaos Gods because the Imperium post Heresy is very much weakened compared to the Imperium without the Heresy, in that scenario Chaos would be very weak and, thanks to the Webway and the Emperor's massive military might drawn from thousands of worlds, unable to do much to mankind. I would say that, The Emperor obviously knows WHAT he is, we know from the fluff that he's pretty much shadowed and influenced mankind through history. In the "The Last Church" story in Tales Of Heresy he seems to believe that religion splits mankind into factions and weakens mankind, hence in order for mankind to unite and be strong enough to reclaim the galaxy in The Great Crusade, mankind must be united as one force without superstition or fear. I'd wager that the idea is that The Emperor has been interpreted in 40K human history as the god of many religions, The Emperor knows this, and also that mankind will not accept the idea, or at very least will split into factions for and against the Emperor, hence it is easier to just do away with the old religions, with The Emperor safe in the knowledge that he is the true God of them. The Mechanicum are a different story, The Emperor must see that their society is so essential to the Crusade, and their belief so central to their usefulness, that the next best thing to wiping them out for believing in their Machine God is for Emperor to tell them that he is their Machine God. Sure beats them worshipping the Necron race anyhow..... This is not the only time a vision said to be the truth is distorted; The Alpha Legion are given skewed information when the Cabal shows Alpharius a vision of the impact his choice to join Horus or stay loyal will have, we know them joining with Horus does not lead to victory for Chaos, and it can be argued that the future that should occur where they do not join is not right - Chaos is not overthrowing the Imperium, it's a close fight but by no means a walkover! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1956923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 The point of showing Horus the vision is so he would turn, causing the vision to actualy exist. In trying to prevent the vision from occuring, he set in motion the events which led to the actual vision being real. Crazy, huh?To the question, was the Emperor seekin Godhood, no, he actually 'became' a god after he was set in the Golden Throne. This is due to the idea that a God is everywhere, and he watches over all who believe in him, and since he protects the Imperium from Chaos, and he had such godly powers during the Great Crusade, it is easy for the average, common 40k civilian to see him as divine. See, Horus was like a baby. They gave him sweets, and he laughed and clapped and sung. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1957069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Fossil Penguin Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I think it can be argued both ways, as with much of the backstory of the Emperor. He may, like Caeser, have been playing to the gallery when he eschewed godhood and was actually planning on drawing on the adoration of an entire galaxy (well the human part, anyway) to make the transformation a controlled one and then whup the Chaos gods up and down the warp. However, I don't think that this was what was after, because it wouldn't work. Let's say that the Great Crusade actually worked and that there was no Heresy. Everyone 'believes' in the Emperor, and this is where the problem lies: the Imperium would fall into in-fighting as lots of groups started aguing, and fighting, over the correct way to perform their worship. Even when people share the important big things, they love to argu and get into pi$$ing contests over the small, unimportant stuff. I think it wiuld have been overall safer not to go for godhood. Although Lorgar would probably have stuck his oar in at some point... GFP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1957711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
arbogast1 Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I believe theres a passage in the bible or some religious text (not very religious so im not sure) that goes along the lines of saying that the devil will show you the truth but tell you lies about it. same thing here, in my opinion. erebus (?) showed horus the truth of what would happen if he turned, yet lied to him about the circumstances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1958166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 the future is unchangeable lol. Horus tried to change it and only made it happen. this is the sad fact about knowing the future. no matter what you do it will still happen. for example the chaos gods give you a vision that you failed your exam. you study hard and you still fail or you don't study and you still fail. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1958916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
As7_k Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 The point of showing Horus the vision is so he would turn, causing the vision to actualy exist. In trying to prevent the vision from occuring, he set in motion the events which led to the actual vision being real. Crazy, huh? In attempting to defy ones fate one causes the proscribed fate to occur is one of the classic formulations of tragedy. Basic plot of Oedipus Rex. Now that I think of it I see a couple other parallels between Oedipus and Horus as well. (Not the mother marriage thing either) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1958937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 But again, your arguing for or against predestination, which is not calculable. All examples we have of manipulation of the future are fiction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1958941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 The Gods saw it this way: The End defines the Means. The outcome defined what caused it, so they only needed to give that little nudge in their direction, and out comes the means. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1959268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Ok, I'm going to buck the trend. The Emperor may not have been activly seeking Godhood, but what he was doing meant it was an almost inevitable by product. The Emperor wasn't an idiot - he knew he would be worshipped. More significantly, knowing this and the crisis of, for want of a better word, "faith" that was to engulf the Imperium - what better way than to allow this. After all, men do so love to die for their gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1959331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdenaar Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I agree that the Emperor did not seek to be a god of humanity. Erebus showed Horus lies fabrications to make the Emperor seem evil and the possible future and told him that the future he saw WOULD happen though Horus didn't know that was a load of bull. If he'd simply rejected what Erebus had showed him and listened to Magnus like he should have done then things could have been extremely different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1960960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wadey13 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I think whether the Emperor wanted to become a god or not He already had done, when Euphrati Keeler defeats the daemon in the library on the Vengeful Wrath she does so only by drawing on her faith in the Emperor, so in my mind he must be a god by that point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1962525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Ah, but you could also argue that it was not the power of the Emperor she was drawing upon, but a manifestation of her own powers which were focused by her faith. Infact, as the Emperor has not been enthroned within the golden throne at this point, I would say this would almost certainly be the case. The entire ethos of the Great Crusade was to ultimately bring about the liberation of the human spirit through rationality and science, and away from a superstition which he saw as a shackle on the unification of humanity. But, in doing such a thing he behaved far beyond the ken of normal humans, became a focus for those superstitions, and as he was laid low before completing his tasks inadvertantly created a far-reaching and draconian psuedo-religion which holds all of mankind in check some 10,000 years later. The real question is whether or not the Emperor is just a crumbling figurehead for the Imperium, an icon used by those who hold power in his name, or actually intended to hold humankind in the form of slavery it now inhabits. Knowing what we now know about the Emperor and his background, I guess its a matter of opinion which of those is more likely... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1962598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Ah, but you could also argue that it was not the power of the Emperor she was drawing upon, but a manifestation of her own powers which were focused by her faith. Infact, as the Emperor has not been enthroned within the golden throne at this point, I would say this would almost certainly be the case. or he had just attained his Godhood prior to this event. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1962606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticFox Posted April 21, 2009 Author Share Posted April 21, 2009 See, that's the thing I keep coming back to in my mind. But I think I can see how it can be explained both ways: The first way: The Emperor is a god. Euphrati Keeler's faith alone allowed her to withstand the attack from the demon because it is genuine faith in a deity. The second way: The Emperor is not a god. His psychic ability is, however, so incredibly strong that those who have "faith" in him are able to tap into or channel his psychic energy, and that's what Keeler did. By having faith, her mind is opened up to him in a way that enables this. Thus, the Emperor may APPEAR to be a god but is not one. This doesn't really answer whether he INTENDS to become a god, but it does allow plenty of room for discussion either way, even with the apparent powers manifested by the faithful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1962635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 In my experience, the minimum standard of godhood is set by the worshipper, not by the god. The Emperor could quite easily have attained godhood whilst still not wanting to be a god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1962672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 In my experience, the minimum standard of godhood is set by the worshipper, not by the god. The Emperor could quite easily have attained godhood whilst still not wanting to be a god. no he could have attained being worshipped not god pweres big difference, cults work on this prinapal. So if his powere transfers to followers god if not cult leader. either way he may not have wanted to be worshipped. Warning this part is rated highly Heretical and is not intended for the loyalist audience: Personally I believe he orchastrated the Heresey and it worked like this First the Emperor using his ultra cool magical fututre sight looks into the future and sees some cool lovy dovy vision of it. What we all forget about is the Big E/Bob was still human and the chaos gods can influence visions (see Horus Heresey), and did so to bring about optimum effect for them. Bob bought into this vision wholesale and made plans to bring it about "to better Humanity because there is no way the all knowing mighty Bob could be wrong. These plans eventually lead to the betrayal by several of his slave generals/i mean sons which in essnce he still atains exactly what he wanted just not the way he wanted it. Also Emperor Bob beleiving a false vision parallels Horus doing it maybe they were more similar than we are lead to believe and that is why Horus was made Warmaster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1963008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 See, that's the thing I keep coming back to in my mind. But I think I can see how it can be explained both ways: The first way: The Emperor is a god. Euphrati Keeler's faith alone allowed her to withstand the attack from the demon because it is genuine faith in a deity. The second way: The Emperor is not a god. His psychic ability is, however, so incredibly strong that those who have "faith" in him are able to tap into or channel his psychic energy, and that's what Keeler did. By having faith, her mind is opened up to him in a way that enables this. Thus, the Emperor may APPEAR to be a god but is not one. This doesn't really answer whether he INTENDS to become a god, but it does allow plenty of room for discussion either way, even with the apparent powers manifested by the faithful. it is the second one!!! why do you think keeler was taken by the sisters of silence as a psyker :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1963347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 no he could have attained being worshipped not god pweres big difference, cults work on this prinapal. So if his powere transfers to followers god if not cult leader. either way he may not have wanted to be worshipped. Yes, but being worshipped as a god means has has attained godhood. He may not be a god, but achieving godhood means you are good enough to be recognised/perceived as one. So Horus would have been told the truth about the Emperor attaining godhood, and would have (naturally) assumed that the Emperor intended this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1963453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notlage Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 See, that's the thing I keep coming back to in my mind. But I think I can see how it can be explained both ways: The first way: The Emperor is a god. Euphrati Keeler's faith alone allowed her to withstand the attack from the demon because it is genuine faith in a deity. The second way: The Emperor is not a god. His psychic ability is, however, so incredibly strong that those who have "faith" in him are able to tap into or channel his psychic energy, and that's what Keeler did. By having faith, her mind is opened up to him in a way that enables this. Thus, the Emperor may APPEAR to be a god but is not one. This doesn't really answer whether he INTENDS to become a god, but it does allow plenty of room for discussion either way, even with the apparent powers manifested by the faithful. it is the second one!!! why do you think keeler was taken by the sisters of silence as a psyker :lol: The better question may be why hadn't these powers manifested in her earlier, to be taken away on said ships as a child? What prompted these powers to manifest when they did? The Chaos Gods (the 40K universes title) work this way when dealing with mortals: you believe in me, have faith in what I tell you, and you will have power. Keeler has faith in the big E, as a completely untrained psyker somehow manages extreme acts of pshycic skill, and by tapping into his more than formidable power she can blast away daemons. Now, based on the Chaos Gods being defined as gods (in the 40K universe), I believe this is the best argument towards the big E's godhood, intended or not. If you think the Chaos Gods are 'warp xenos', I would wonder why they are, and always have been, called gods. As the onlooker, we know they are called gods, and their power grows with worship...the fact that the imperials in 30K are being told they are just 'warp xenos' (that is, when their existance can't be totally supressed such as the incident with Loken), to propigate the 'truth' that no gods exists is simply a means to an end. Point being: we have a unique perspective that the 30K imperials didn't have, and we needn't be as gullible as they are; just because something is stamped with the word 'truth' doesn't mean it is. The only counter argument to this is: in the 40K world, there are zero gods, and the word god should be subsituted with the word 'power' for more accuracy. But, we are restricted to the verbage of the universe, so the argument then becomes 'did GW use the wrong word' and not about what the Emperor's true status is. I think it is fun to speculate on what the Emperor is after, or what his motives are, but really we have little idea. Take Mechanicus, for example. The planning and suterfuge that went into him be venerated as the Omnissiah (a god) would have made even Tzeentch proud....and this is a huge shocker and really one of the few insights we do have into how he opperates. With one hand, he sets up a religion (HE implanted the prophecy) so that he would be venerated, and with the other hand he tells the rest of the imperium there are no gods (perhaps to keep the vast populace from seeking out others to worship, thus weakening chaos). When it suits his goals, he is a god, and when it doesn't, he isn't. He is a power on par with the Chaos Gods, and I think more bits of his motivation will reveal themselves as the series continues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166091-was-horus-told-the-truth-spoilers-from-galaxy-in-flames/#findComment-1963819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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