Know Thy Enemy: Imperial Guard

[ShinyRhino]

Though any opponent worth his salt would have the one you based explode first.

 

Random dice are random... He doesn't get to assign which result goes where. He only gets to assign which tanks get penetrating hits versus glances. The damage chart is rolled after he assigns the hits, so who knows which tank is going to blow up.

 

Ahh, good point. Which page of the rulebook is this on, so I can use it as support when I pull this on the poor IG players?

[Gornall]

BRB Page 64. Assign hits, roll for cover (if applicable), roll for results, then apply results to the affected vehicles.

[Warp Angel]

Now THAT is interesting, Warp Angel. Assaulting a tank squadron with infantry grenades sounds like pure brilliance. You only have to be able to reach ONE tank of the three to pop all of them! Being based on that one tank during the assault can also keep you out of "Explodes!" range of the others, too. Though any opponent worth his salt would have the one you based explode first.

 

This is why vehicle squadrons are very vunlerable. Imagine what a single Ironclad on the charge can do.

 

4 attacks - assume all hit...

 

It gets ugly.

[CrazyCanuk]

Not sure if this is a given or not, but something I found in early plays of this book.

 

It should be noted that units in a Chimera can not recieve orders. You can give orders from a Chimera, but not recieve.

 

I know its written in black and white, but a lot of people seem to be missing this aspect of the rule.

 

All in all, unless people havent figured them out yet, they dont seem too hard to handle.

[ShinyRhino]

Not sure if this is a given or not, but something I found in early plays of this book.

 

It should be noted that units in a Chimera can not recieve orders. You can give orders from a Chimera, but not recieve.

 

I know its written in black and white, but a lot of people seem to be missing this aspect of the rule.

 

All in all, unless people havent figured them out yet, they dont seem too hard to handle.

 

That's a valuable tidbit. I can't remember any of the Orders beyond "First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!" and "Bring It Down!". Neither looks to be useful from inside a Chimaera anyhow, but it's still valuable info.

 

I think one of the big downfalls of the Orders system is also the 12" radius of effect. Keeping Guardsmen platoons/units in a 12" circle around your big officers is prime bombing fodder for any sort of template weapon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole Vox Network as it existed in the past (unlimited range for Ld boost) is gone now, and Vox only allows a reroll for success, right?

[Warp Angel]

I think one of the big downfalls of the Orders system is also the 12" radius of effect. Keeping Guardsmen platoons/units in a 12" circle around your big officers is prime bombing fodder for any sort of template weapon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole Vox Network as it existed in the past (unlimited range for Ld boost) is gone now, and Vox only allows a reroll for success, right?

 

That seems to be the case.

 

Keep in mind that Creed can issue 4 orders and has a radius of 24".

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

i have to say, as an Imperial Guard player, i disagree totally about the Original posters assessment, and i think his tactics are still entrenched in 3rd and 4th edition Guardsmen.

 

Lets consider a moment on pressure, this is what i focus my armies on, and i find Imperial Guard are a brilliant Pressure army.

 

Pressure is the feeling the Player (not the army) is feeling when he is looking at his opponent. When he looks at one of your units as says "i just cant deal with that" is when youve broken him. Victory is easy against a broken player, since his heart isnt in it.

 

Pressure is much to do with playstyle and army building, and Imperial Guard i consider to be masters of pressure because they are a shooty horde army.

 

Orks are almost as good as guard at pressure. Almost.

 

Now, lets look at the OP assessment:

 

Basic Guards Squad

=============

1) The basic guardsman is the weakest individual model in the game, with a flat 3 statline and a 7 (8 w/sgt) leadership.

2) Their basic weapons, the lasgun, require approximately 18 shots, on average, to kill a basic Marine.

3) Similarly, it takes 18 hand to hand attacks, on average, to kill a basic Marine.

4) Their special and heavy weapons (in a squad of 10) can't be relied upon to hit and wound more than one Marine without amazing luck.

5) They get no armor save against bolters.

6) They get no armor save against flamers, which also ignore cover.

7) Guard no longer benefit from the Ld of an officer nearby or in the vox network. They get the free sarge's Ld of 8.

8) Squads from the same platoon can combine to form larger squads - which aren't necessarily better for them, except to reduce Ld checks from shooting and to lower the kill point total in the army.

 

You are ignoring a few potent facts.

 

Firstly, consider that Guard armies will have around 2-3 Guard squads per Tactical squad, that is a big thing. It cant be overstated.

 

Guard have incredible firepower controlbecause of the weakness of their weapons. It means that they wont overshoot, they wont have the marine problem where they will kill an enemy squadron several times over, but they can deftly use their firepower so that not a single lasgun is wasted. While 18 shots may be taken to kill a single marine, none of these lasguns will be wasted, and they will have plenty left over.

 

Oh, and tank shocking them is fun. They can't do anything about it. No meltabombs, no powerfists (unless there's a commisar with one), no krak grenades, and Ld 8.

 

In a pressure army, this will be impossible as Meltaguns are the Number 1 weapon of a pressure guard army.

 

Also, combining squads also has the massive boon of having a single order for multiple models

meaning you can get 30 Guardsmen in a squad (150 points) and give them the Front Rank Fire order for 60 shots at 13-24" or 90 shots at 1-12".

 

150 points of Guardsmen with one order can kill 5 marines with a single rapid fire, before special and heavy weapons.

 

No, Guardsmen squads are no the pushovers you seem to make them out to be.

 

Veteran Squads

=======================

1) Like the basic guard squad equivalent, but can never consolidate into larger squads

2) BS4

3) Same hand to hand weaknesses most of the time as regular guard

4) Higher firepower potential

 

And youve forgotten the most important part.

 

Each Veteran squad can have 3 Special weapons and 1 heavy. They can take Shotguns (S3, but still)

 

And Veteran squad have 3 upgrades at their Disposal, one gives them Carapace armour (4+), one gives them Stealth and Defensive grenades and the last gives them a Demo charge (6" range S8 Ap2 Large Blast, assault)and ALL of them Meltabombs.

 

They can take multiples of those 3 upgrades, and even with 2 of them, and a few special weapons, they arent that expensive. My Basic Veteran unit is 10 models (troops) with shotguns, 2x Meltaguns, a powerfist, Stealth, Defensive grenades, Demo charge and Meltabombs. this is 150 points... so i can run up, fire all guns (2x meltas, a bunch of shotguns, a S8 Ap2 large blast and then assault whats left with 2 attacks each and a powerfist.

 

Veterans are one of the more deadly things in the Guard Codex.

 

Add in Special Characters too.

 

Bastonne gives them a large amount of Orders, Ld10 for them, a good character and they may always rally.

Harker Gives them a relentless heavy bolter and makes them Infiltrate and move through cover.

 

be afraid...;)

 

Conscripts

=======================

1) Tarpit in absorbing shooting casualties

2) Laughable in inflicting any sort of casualties

3) Even at full size, vulnerable to a strong hand to hand attack.

 

Lets take that last point, for a moment. Lets add in, say, the Lord Commissar, so they are Stubborn on Ld10. Thats a hell of a tarpit right there.

If you want to increase this to stupid, add a priest and Creed or Stracken and give them furious charge.

 

That means that if they get the charge, 50 Conscripts will throw out 100attacks, rerolling missed hits, at S4 In4.

 

On average, those attacks almost kill a full ork mob.

 

Ogryns:

-----Good - S5 T5 W3 A3 Sv4+, Furious Charge - these guys are absolute brutes in hand to hand. They are the ONLY good hand to hand choice in a guard army. They get a chimera transport and don't have to worry about "It's dark in 'ere" anymore.

 

In a pressure Guard army, you take multiple squads of Guardsmen with only special weapons and run them all forward at once.

 

In this sort of army, Ogryns are the 'Damned if you do, damned if you dont' unit. Shoot them and let the mass of guardsmen survive, or dont shoot them and the Ogryns eat you.

 

But, they are not the only good H2H we have.

 

-----Bad - Ld 6, these boys need an attached character, and there aren't that many of them to go around.

 

Nah, if they get shot, thats their job. If they flee you can make them rally on the Officers Ld with a 'Get back in the fight' order.

 

Ratlings:

-----Good - BS4, stealthed, all sniper weapons. For you sniper fans, this is cool

-----Bad - like conscripts in hand to hand and like Ogryns with Ld. There's not a lot of durability here

 

Durability means alot of things. When you consider that ratlings will be infiltrating to make sure they are as far away from you as possible, and will most probably be getting a 3+ cover save, then they are plenty durable.

 

And i cant believe you forgot the Psykers.

 

The Psychic choir is one of the most devastating things the Guard is getting in the new codex.

 

Their 2 powers do incredible damage. First: Weaken resolve, thats horrific with 110 points make your Ld2. Then you hit them with:

Sniper rifle

Mortar

Artillery

To pin them and make them flee.

 

Rough Riders

-----Good - Fast, outflanking, good first charge, relatively cheap

-----Bad - not very durable, not very potent after the inital charge in CC

 

Take Mogul Kamir, he gives them rage which is harsh, but Furious charge means that they hit at S6 In6 on the first charge and then 3 S4 In4 attacks afterwards. They have a charging power equivilent to assault marines, just faster and much less points.

 

Valkyrie Squadron

-----Good - Fast, good transport, good troop deployment options, potentially high firepower

-----Bad - Squadron rules work against them, one squadron can only control/contest one objective at a time in most cases, high base cost, firepower upgrades cost a lot

 

Firepower upgrades arnt huge, a 140 points Valkyrie can move 12" and fire a multilaser and 2 S4 Pie plates, or it can move 6" and fire the above+2 heavy bolters. They can also turboboost before the game starts to get a 4+cover on the first turn (if it is the enemies turn)

 

Vendetta Squadron

-----Good - Same as Valkyrie, plus good firepower base

-----Bad - Same as Valkyrie, even higher cost when upgrading firepower

 

Vendettas, though, dont need upgrading. The Heavy bolters arent required, only the 3 twin linked lascannons.

 

-----Good - can move up to 6" and fire their ordinance weapon in addition to all of their regular weapons, AP3 templates or other special big guns, sponsons, great armor

-----Bad - Kind of expensive with firepower upgrades, Read the Squadron Rules in the BRB. They can't split their fire between multiple units, which makes combat squadding a good idea. There's no better feeling in the world than watching 500 points of tanks kill 90 points of tactical Marines in a full turn of shooting, because that's the only target they had.

 

If the Guardsman player got you to combat squad in fear of his russ squad then their points are already justified. If that Russ squad kills a Combat squad a turn, how fast will your army be able to handle that? Guard can stand to lose casualties, marines less so.

 

Artillery Squadron

-----Good - high firepower, relatively inexpensive - watch out for Medusas. They're engines of destruction when used properly.

-----Bad - weak armor, often open topped, squadron can be a liability

 

You picked out one of the weaker and more expensive artillery pieces to showcase...

 

Griffons are where its at, a guard player can get 9 Griffons for 625 points, it gives him 9 S6 Ap4 Large blasts which reroll scatter die. As this is a marine board, the note must be made for the colossus, nice and cheap and puts a s6 Ap3 Large blast out there which ignores cover.

 

Individual Artillery Pieces

-----Good - Awesome firepower

-----Bad - As artillery squadron, sometimes silly rules

 

you wont even showcase them?

 

The Manticore has 4 shots a game, but each of these causes D3 S10 Ap4 large blasts. Horriffic against vehicles and hordes.

 

The Deathstrike has a single random shot, but it does S10 Ap1 hit to all models (including vehicles, who count as directly hit) too all models in a RADIUS of 8-12" which also ignores cover.

 

The Deathstrike is the ultimate pressure tool, it forces the guards opponent to pit his force against it, otherwise it will do horrific damage, meaning the Guard player can focus on the actual objectives as his opponent is scrambling to kill his 160 point artillery tank :P

 

1) Keep your forces in reserve and go second. Assuming that he isnt' running the Astropath and the Master of the Fleet, and is just running two Astropaths, his entire army is going to arrive before any of yours does. You've effectively taken away the best part of his tactics and can now inflict serious hurt on his relatively fragile forces.

 

And meaning your forces come on turn 2 on a 5+, to be masaccred by ranged shooting which the guard player is infinately better at.

 

2) Deploy completely along one side of the table, so that any outflanking units face the majority firepower of your army. Done right, and if you go first, you've got two turns to completely clog up one side of the table so he CAN'T use most of it for outflanking. Your opponent's army is then unable to bring in his forces in the way he wants to, and might have to deploy them completely across the table.

 

Astropath means he will probably come on when and where he wants too. Putting all your forces there means alot of clogged up marines for artillery and then a nice counter assault from outflanking units (and we can have *alot* of them)

 

3) Assault Assault Assault. Closing in prevents the enemy from using template weapons, and krak grenades work very nicely against AV10 rear armor - which is almost everything but a couple Russ variants. A krak grenade against a 6" moving vehicle has a 25% chance of getting a glancing/penetrating hit... so even 5 naked tactical Marines should be able to mess up a tank pretty badly. Increase squad size and add a power fist... You're talking a world of hurt.

 

Also a very dead tac squad, consider that if you split into combat squads, it means the Guard player simply has to castle, fire his artillery and heavy weapons at the ranged marines and the Lasguns and special weapons at the advancing ones?

 

I really dont get alot of what you are saying in the OP, so i hope ive helped clear it up abit.

 

Fighting guard is going to take alot more than combat squadding and running up the table into our guns.

[Giga]

Well, I played against new guard at a local tournament today. The guy killed some 100 points more of my army then I did of his (he shouldn't have, though, I just rolled way too many ones for 2+ terminator saves).

 

Gotha say they had a whole hell of a lot high str AP 3 stuff, but then again even though the guy couldn't seem to miss with his scatter dice, it still wasn't overly impressive. Them being guardsmen their morale is pretty low, so shooting frag missiles and heavy bolters at them can effectively cause leadership tests even if they're in cover. It's enough for them to fail a single test and they're gonna be running and unable to fire their heavy weapons in the next turn. Because the guard players love camping at their deployment zones, this also opens the possibility of guardsmen running off the board.

 

The new AP 3 stormtroopers, while potentially dangerous, are nothing special since they only wound on 5+, so with a little cover it's easily mitigated. On the other hand they fall to flamers and boltguns just as well as regular guards do, so it's nothing to be particularly worried about, just yet.

 

Overall, I believe the key is to take advantage of their inherent vulnerability. They have lots of big guns, and while us marines don't have too many of those, we must remember that such bellow-average things like frag missiles are A LOT scarrier when they're used against a swarm of T3 guys with nothing but 4+ cover saves to keep their skins. I had 3 tactical squads shooting missile launchers and a land raider firing a heavy bolter into that infantry, and the poor guards kept dying and getting leadership tests simply because even in a 4+ cover save they just can't save all those wounds.

[Fintan]

Just to echo what Giga said, as I also played the new Guard today and had a similar experience, minus the poor armour save rolling.

 

The first couple of turns are pretty daunting, the amount of firepower a Guard army can put out is pretty impressive and I was casting a nervous eye over my casualty pile. However, I forgot that I was playing with Space Marines and not mere humans and when my las-scarred army did spill out of their transports and get in the Guards face, the butchers bill was massive. Even a lowly group of 3-5 tactical Marines can usually best a reasonable sized squad of guard in close combat and destroy through sweeping advance.

 

Imperial Guard dislike:

 

Power-armour - Despite their much touted special weapons, careful use of transports mitigates a lot of this and thanks to a lovely 3+ save, the limited window of opportunity for mass las fire that they get is largely thwarted. Today merely reaffirmed my belief that Mech lists are over-rated and that mass power armour is the way forward. FOR THE EMPEROR!

 

The Humble Boltgun - I routed 3 units of Imperial Guardsmen today in a single turn thanks to blowing away chunks of their units with rapid fire bolt-guns from combat squads. 3's to hit, 3's to kill is never, ever over-rated.

Speed - Get in their face and most players will panic. I had Landspeeders with multi-meltas turbo-boosting down the flanks and Razorbacks/Rhinos flying up the centre and popping smoke. Lots of armour all with a 4+ cover save. Watch with satisfaction as the Guard player squirms, deciding wether to risk his tanks with the speeders or his troops with the genetically modified thugs a mere turn away from rapid-fire range.

 

Close-combat - If you can't win close combat against a Guard army, you may as well pack your chainsword away and run a gun-line army. With low leadership scores and big units that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, coupled with I3, sweeping advances will see units destroyed that might takes turns of concentrated fire otherwise.

 

Flamers - 'Cos no-one likes being set on fire.

 

Todays opponent wasn't the most experienced but neither am I. I think Imperial Guard are a fairly well balanced army that can seem incredibly intimidating when they're lined up at a single board edge with a pure 2000 points of concentrated firepower. How-ever, they still suffer from that one extremely exploitable weakness....

 

They're humans! They explode when you hit them with most Space Marine weaponry and then their friends get upset about it and decide that perhaps running away to the army wasn't the best idea after all. You're playing with genetically modified super-humans who wear incredibly advanced armour and wield weapons capable of punching through solid brick walls with single bullets. Get in their face and let them 'ave it!

[Olesh]

Post by Varath

 

First off, punctuation, spelling, and grammar are important.

 

Second, there is literally so much wrong with your post that it would take me more than an hour to sit down and refute each point, one at a time. One example is your ludicrous statement regarding the deathstrike missile - it has an 8-12" diameter, not a radius as you posted.

 

So let's simplify this:

Post an example army list so you can justify the balance of points. A full squad of ogryns is great until you realize that it's a single elites choice that takes up 20% of a 2000 point army. Similarly with a squad of leman russes. If you advocate the use of multiple expensive units, how do you justify discussions of massed firepower that you simply do not have the points to field in a normal game?

 

Defend the presence of each unit as regards to the role it plays, typical deployment, and its value to the army as a whole. If a unit has an anti-tank role, an anti-MEQ, anti-horde, if it aids other units, serves to draw fire away from more valuable units, etc, should also be included, and justify the unit's value in that particular role.

 

It very much looks like you are examining each unit individually without considering how it fits into the army, so demonstrate how they do fit into the larger whole.

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

First off, punctuation, spelling, and grammar are important.

 

It was late, and i was procrastinating from writing 2 essays, im sorry if im dont have perfect grammer your majesty.

 

Second, there is literally so much wrong with your post that it would take me more than an hour to sit down and refute each point, one at a time. One example is your ludicrous statement regarding the deathstrike missile - it has an 8-12" diameter, not a radius as you posted

 

If you dont want to take an hour to post, then dont post ludicrous challenges.

 

I meant the bigger one, i dont do maths and the above excuses apply.

 

Post an example army list so you can justify the balance of points. A full squad of ogryns is great until you realize that it's a single elites choice that takes up 20% of a 2000 point army. Similarly with a squad of leman russes. If you advocate the use of multiple expensive units, how do you justify discussions of massed firepower that you simply do not have the points to field in a normal game?

 

Defend the presence of each unit as regards to the role it plays, typical deployment, and its value to the army as a whole. If a unit has an anti-tank role, an anti-MEQ, anti-horde, if it aids other units, serves to draw fire away from more valuable units, etc, should also be included, and justify the unit's value in that particular role.

 

It very much looks like you are examining each unit individually without considering how it fits into the army, so demonstrate how they do fit into the larger whole.

 

Im sorry, but saying something is not worth the points if it is 20% of a 2000 point game is, i think, misguided since that is entirely reliant on the power of the unit and what that unit brings in the context of an army.

 

Here is the list i am using for my guard:

 

Command squad

Creed

Standard

2x Meltaguns

 

(4 orders at 24", scout and For Cadia=brilliant officer who will be able to make my troops far more powerful than they already are.)

 

Lord Commissar

 

(keep in range of as many units as i can to facilitate Orders and Morale, try to keep near Ogryns)

 

5 Ogryns

 

(Either a bullet magnet or a rompa stompa. If they shoot at them, brilliant, my guardsmen are surviving, if they dont, brilliant, the Ogryns can stomp them)

 

9 Psykers and Overseer

 

(I can make a squad become pinned or flee every turn when i want, that is absolutely horrific, especially with the amount of Artillery i have on the field. Also good and Blasty)

 

Infantry Platoon 1

Command squad

2x Meltas

 

Infantry squad

Flamer

 

Infantry squad

Flamer

 

Infantry squad

Flamer

 

Infantry squad

Flamer

 

(2 units of 20, 2 flamers against 1 target guarantees pain+alot of front rank firing. OR i can fire the flamers and then charge with 'For Cadia', its all down to what i want, really)

 

Infantry Platoon 2

Command squad

2x Meltaguns

 

Infantry squad

Melta

 

Infantry squad

Melta

 

Infantry squad

Melta

 

Infantry squad

Melta

 

(again, 2 units of 20, Meltas are good weapons, but its the lasguns which really shine. These units would be best with 'Take it down' against MC's and vehicles)

 

Veteran squad

3x Meltaguns

Shotguns

Powerfist

Demolitions

 

(My annoyance unit, they charge inside the mass and make a mess of whatever i want. If they get shot at i can go to ground and then jump up again in the next turn due to 'get back in the fight', and Demo charge+3x Meltas+6 shotguns+charge with 'For cadia'= lotsa death)

 

Deathstrike

 

(my pressure unit, they have over 100 Guardsmen of various types running at them, using orders as much as they can to make them faster and killier and they also have a very very big missile to worry about...whos going to break first?)

 

Manticore

 

(I just love the idea of it, and up to 12 S10 Ordinance blasts from a single tank in a game isnt bad)

 

3x Medusa's

 

(Compared to the Deathstrike, these are the ACTUAL nukes. They fire at whatever is biggest and nastiest in my range, making the enemy keep their head down, while making Terminators and the like worry)

 

Total- 1995

 

Typical Deployment: None, i think about my deployment for each mission according to the enemy and mission, but usually i go with the Tactica Imperialis on this one. If i outnumber them, i spread out in a line to get maximum firepower, if they outnumber me, i make my deployment small so they have to face my best troops.

It very much looks like you are examining each unit individually without considering how it fits into the army, so demonstrate how they do fit into the larger whole.

 

This army is one which plays how i like armies to play, its incredibly aggressive, relying on moving and running to not only get into short range, but to lessen the time my opponent has to think about an enact their tactics on how they are going to deal with the Artillery im throwing downfield at them.

 

Speaking of Artillery, noone can match it, that much is simple. Artillery wins wars, and i have the monopoly.

 

The army works by throwing up so many targets at you that you dont have enough guns to deal with them. I find that Fast moving assaulters are the weakness i have, but if i keep my target and fire discipline, i can usually overcome these.

 

This army suited me well from 4th edition, itll suit me better now.

 

As a guardsmen, i am left with the problem that what the enemy concentrates on will die, my answer is "whatever you kill, leaves something behind"

 

It very much looks like you are examining each unit individually without considering how it fits into the army, so demonstrate how they do fit into the larger whole.

 

As i have said, it all depends on the context.

[ShinyRhino]

That is a rough-looking list Varath. Have you play-tested it yet? How did it fare, and against what opponents?

 

The things I see as weaknesses in your army are:

 

Your arty pops like a tin balloon. One krak missile or lascannon shot can wreck any of your artillery pieces. Even with a 4+ cover save, you're going to draw a lot of long-range and/or anti-tank fire.

The Deathstrike will not fire, ever. It will simply attract too much fire.

Now, I know you plan on hiding all that arty behind a hill or a ruin to avoid LOS and at least gain cover saves. But that's a LOT of arty. Five pieces, actually. You're going to be hard-pressed to find enough cover for five different tank-sized pieces.

The three Medusae all have to fire at the same target each turn, due to squadron rules. If even one inch of one of those Medusae is visible, all fire can be poured at the squadron, potentially crippling the whole unit in one volley.

 

Your infantry has no form of transport. You talk about how it's incredibly aggressive and will pour out a ton of fire. But it still has to GET to the opponent. You're looking at 6" of movement per turn, max 12" if you forego firing weapons to run. That's a best-case scenario. And if you move, you can only fire 12". A mechanized Marine army can hang out, buttoned up in their Rhinos, and still plink away at you from 24" away. The stormbolter will fire two shots, another Marine will fire a single 24" shot from a firing point, and another will fire a frag missile from the other firing point. You're taking whittling casualties every turn, and rolling Leadership tests. You're tempting the Dice Gods with all those rolls.

 

Another side-effect of your non-mech, footslogging infantry is the vulnerability to templates, from Whirlwinds, Orbital Bombardments (though only one per game), Thunderfire Cannons, and Conversion Beamers.

Whirlwinds will be dropping either S5, AP4 shots, or S4, AP5 shots that ignore cover. They'll either be negating your Carapace upgrade, or burning away your cover saves. Both types have very good chances to wound your Guardsmen.

The Orbital Bombardment is a one-shot. But it doesn't need line of sight, and has unlimited range. The Chapter Master firing it can even use it from inside a Rhino or Razorback. I'd be dropping it dead smack on your Command Squad on turn one. S10, AP1 on the nerve center of your force. And since your command squad will be firmly anchoring the center of yourlines for max effect of Orders, even if I scatter with my OB, I still stand a good chance of crushing something under its heel.

The Thunderfire has a variety of ammo types. Against your footslogging Guard platoons, I'm always loading Tremor shells, to slow you down even more. Plus wounds and the leadership tests they invoke once the casualties mount.

Lastyly comes the rarely-seen Conversion Beamer. Few folks wield it, since there's no easy model for it yet. But it plays your game against you. The further it is from you, the harder it hits. If it has line of sight to any of your artillery pieces, it will hit them with solid shots, though these may scatter.

 

You mentioned your plan to move forward aggressively under cover of artillery. But what will you be doing when you get there? Lots of Marine armies have switched over to mechanized builds in Rhinos and Razors. Your lasguns cannot pierce those. 90 shots sounds awesome, but it's all wasted on buttoned-up troops that can stillput out fire on you from inside the mobile bunker. Yes, your arty can crack those open, but not reliably. Even your meltaguns in the infantry platoons are sketchy. They have a 12" range. You've weathered at least two full turns of my fire to get within that range, if not three. With wound allocation, is your meltagunner still alive? I know I'm saving my smoke launchers until you get within that 12" melta range. Should you pop the Rhino, you now have up to 10 angry Marines with rapid-firing bolters looking at you. Remember, you're within 12" because of the melta range.

 

Your psykers are a potent unit, indeed. But they are just as vulnerable to all of the things I mentioned in regards to your infantry squads, with a lower model count. Their pinning power is strong, but useless against mech forces that are buttoned up. You can't pin a unit in a tank.

 

Beware sniper squads with Sergeant Telion. They can rip the heart out of your grunts in short order. However, they will likely be a prime target of your artillery. It comes down to a dice-off here, honestly.

 

Also beware of the speedy element of a Marine army. Landspeeders and Bikes. These units can turbo-boost, granting a nice 3+ cover save. Once they make it into your backfield, your arty is severely compromised. Heavy bolter attack bike squads are going to put out nine heavy bolter shots at 36" into your infantry. At 24" you can add three twin-linked bolter shots. At 12" those become six twin-linked bolter shots. All of which wound reliably against Guard. Multimelta bikes will ruin your day if they get in the backfield. Be wary of the turbo-boosted Landspeeder with heavy flamer upgrades.

 

 

 

 

I don't mean to get into a pissing match with you over your army list. I'm just throwing out variables and counters to your tactics that you will see in competitive Marine lists, which have gone fast and mechanized, or are drop-podded. Vehicles are a lot harder to kill in 5th Edtion, except for your artillery. It's all low-AV, and open-topped to boot.

[Syphid]

Librarian + Bike + Vortex of Doom = Dead Ogryn?

[ShinyRhino]

Librarian + Bike + Vortex of Doom = Dead Ogryn?

 

Unfortunately, the Libby has to get within range, and not scatter. If he misses or fails his Leadership test for the power, he's toast on the next round from all the fire he's going to draw, and then the assault from the Ogryns. Unreliable, glass hammer, unfortunately.

[Syphid]

Librarian + Bike + Vortex of Doom = Dead Ogryn?

 

Unfortunately, the Libby has to get within range, and not scatter. If he misses or fails his Leadership test for the power, he's toast on the next round from all the fire he's going to draw, and then the assault from the Ogryns. Unreliable, glass hammer, unfortunately.

 

 

What do you think is a better way to deal with Ogryn?

[Terminus]

This document really needs to include the Psyker battle squads. Those things are NASTY!

 

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say the Ogryn are the only capable close combat squad the Guard have available. They could easily recruit a couple of units of Grey Knights and stick them in Valkyries/Vendettas. The local guard player also loves his Seraphim.

[ShinyRhino]

What do you think is a better way to deal with Ogryn?

 

Well, I don't know the exact unit capabilities of Ogryns (how many you can take, etc), just the stat line. They've got T5 and 3 wounds each, which makes them a tough kill as a unit.

They feel very similar to Meganobz, with worse saves and better shooting. It'll be tough to land a lot of wounds on these guys, and in enough volume to keep them from knocking down your door. Massed bolter fire from a couple of tacticals might ding them up some. Heavy hits from kraks, lascannons and autocannons have better chances of wounding, but don't have the volume of fire. I wouldn't waste shooting at these guys if they're in cover.

 

Template weapons are also largely wasted, too. Each model is only taking one hit, and then rolls for wounds. Only a S10 template from a Vindicator or Orbital Bombarment is killing these dudes outright. You could also risk throwing a Librarian and his Force Weapon into them, but he'll need some heavy supporting troops. Maybe assault terminators led by a Terminator Libby?

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

Your arty pops like a tin balloon. One krak missile or lascannon shot can wreck any of your artillery pieces. Even with a 4+ cover save, you're going to draw a lot of long-range and/or anti-tank fire.

 

One Krak or lascannon shot can possibly hit and do damage to one of my artillery pieces...possibly.

 

Which means guess which weapons become top priority?

 

I dont rely on just the 4+ cover save, but also the fact that not many enemies can see me.

 

Consider the 3 types of units who will have long range anti tank weapons:

 

Units with lots of heavy weapons (Devastators)- these units i can hit with weaken resolve and artillery to pin and/or make them flee.

 

Basic units with heavy weapon upgrades (tac squads)- these units can fire at my tanks if they wish, but it means my infantry isnt getting molested.

 

Enemy vehicles (Land raiders)- these are the nastiest, but i do have *alot* of S10 Ordinance to deal with them...

 

The Deathstrike will not fire, ever. It will simply attract too much fire.

 

huh...its fired 3 times so far.

 

while it attracts alot of fire, its also not open topped, front armour 12, usually in cover, usually out of line of sight and also there are ALOT of other targets to worry about.

 

Now, I know you plan on hiding all that arty behind a hill or a ruin to avoid LOS and at least gain cover saves. But that's a LOT of arty. Five pieces, actually. You're going to be hard-pressed to find enough cover for five different tank-sized pieces.

 

Actually, the Manticores dont hide, they are direct fire Ordinance. They other hold station or advance if they want. Now it gives you another target which can arguably do just as much damage (if not more) as the Deathstrike. What do you shoot? So far, things that take Anti tank weapons are:

 

Manticore, Deathstrike, Medusas, Ogryns

 

The three Medusae all have to fire at the same target each turn, due to squadron rules. If even one inch of one of those Medusae is visible, all fire can be poured at the squadron, potentially crippling the whole unit in one volley.

 

Sure it can, now the other things can hit you unmolested.

 

See what im doing? Target saturation. I dont mind losing them all, really, as long as it serves a purpose.

 

Also, i can use my scout move from creed to move some artillery before the game starts to get into a better position if i deploy badly.

 

Your infantry has no form of transport. You talk about how it's incredibly aggressive and will pour out a ton of fire. But it still has to GET to the opponent. You're looking at 6" of movement per turn, max 12" if you forego firing weapons to run. That's a best-case scenario. And if you move, you can only fire 12".

 

Actually, with the 'move move move' order, i can run around quite quickly. Ive not had much trouble getting to my opponents since usually they think rapid fire and assault is the best thing for guardsmen, so they rashly move in to me.

 

This helps me alot.

 

. A mechanized Marine army can hang out, buttoned up in their Rhinos, and still plink away at you from 24" away. The stormbolter will fire two shots, another Marine will fire a single 24" shot from a firing point, and another will fire a frag missile from the other firing point. You're taking whittling casualties every turn, and rolling Leadership tests. You're tempting the Dice Gods with all those rolls.

 

sure, they can hang out there, means i can literally blow that marine army away with artillery. Plinking only does so much, This sort of Guard army needs decisive attacks and kills to stop. I may be tempting the dice gods, but alot of my guard i can help with the Commissar Lords Ld, the standards reroll and the 'get back in the fight' order if needs be.

 

Another side-effect of your non-mech, footslogging infantry is the vulnerability to templates, from Whirlwinds, Orbital Bombardments (though only one per game), Thunderfire Cannons, and Conversion Beamers.

 

This is true, ive found templates are harsh against my guardsmen, which is why they are priority 2, after the majority of high heavy weapon to model ratio units.

 

Whirlwinds will be dropping either S5, AP4 shots, or S4, AP5 shots that ignore cover. They'll either be negating your Carapace upgrade, or burning away your cover saves. Both types have very good chances to wound your Guardsmen.

yep, both true, Whirlwinds hurt,

 

The Orbital Bombardment is a one-shot. But it doesn't need line of sight, and has unlimited range. The Chapter Master firing it can even use it from inside a Rhino or Razorback. I'd be dropping it dead smack on your Command Squad on turn one. S10, AP1 on the nerve center of your force. And since your command squad will be firmly anchoring the center of yourlines for max effect of Orders, even if I scatter with my OB, I still stand a good chance of crushing something under its heel.

 

Dont mind it so much. doing that means your chapter master isnt moving, which is good for me. Also, all it takes is one failed wound or a passed refractor field and i will still have my commander up and running. But yes, this is a viable and powerful tactic.

 

The Thunderfire has a variety of ammo types. Against your footslogging Guard platoons, I'm always loading Tremor shells, to slow you down even more. Plus wounds and the leadership tests they invoke once the casualties mount.

 

This one i dont mind due to the ease of taking it out. sometimes even plinking away with lasguns or something can do it! :sweat:

 

Lastyly comes the rarely-seen Conversion Beamer. Few folks wield it, since there's no easy model for it yet. But it plays your game against you. The further it is from you, the harder it hits. If it has line of sight to any of your artillery pieces, it will hit them with solid shots, though these may scatter.

 

Which is fine, really. again, its powerful, large blasts are harsh on guard.

 

You mentioned your plan to move forward aggressively under cover of artillery. But what will you be doing when you get there? Lots of Marine armies have switched over to mechanized builds in Rhinos and Razors. Your lasguns cannot pierce those. 90 shots sounds awesome, but it's all wasted on buttoned-up troops that can stillput out fire on you from inside the mobile bunker.

 

Hmmm...i have Guard who want to shoot infantry and S10 artillery.

 

Hmmm...hmmm.

 

Nope, im stuffed, i have no idea what to do with my manticore, medusas or many many many Meltaguns.

 

They have a 12" range. You've weathered at least two full turns of my fire to get within that range, if not three.

 

Full turns of what? You say your hiding in your Rhinos. If you are, then not much damage will have been caused, if you arnt, then the wroth of the artillery would have done at least something.

 

With wound allocation, is your meltagunner still alive? I know I'm saving my smoke launchers until you get within that 12" melta range. Should you pop the Rhino, you now have up to 10 angry Marines with rapid-firing bolters looking at you. Remember, you're within 12" because of the melta range.

 

Is my meltagunner alive? Im a guardsman! if something is allocated to my special weapons, chances are the unit is dead.

 

Save the smoke launchers! Look, i dont get what your trying to say. Your saying your marine army will be able to hide inside your rhinos as i advance, yet simultainiously you manage to kill *all* of my artillery before they fire and blow your vehicles to pieces. Despite the fact that you cannot see some of them, and i will possibly be getting cover saves.

Once those Angry marines come out, i have 3 Spearhead damage units in my army, Psykers, Ogryns and Veterans, all of which can do serious damage to any marine squad.

 

Also, with a successful front rank fire order i will be firing 60-80 lasguns at any single marine unit as well as the attendant Flamers/Meltas

 

you may have T4 and a 3+ save, but i have *alot* of guns, and seriously, i have the field advantage. Remember you will probably need to capture some objectives too.

 

Your psykers are a potent unit, indeed. But they are just as vulnerable to all of the things I mentioned in regards to your infantry squads, with a lower model count. Their pinning power is strong, but useless against mech forces that are buttoned up. You can't pin a unit in a tank.

 

Then they use their other power to blow the tank, simple. It *is* s9 to begin with and 36" range.

 

Beware sniper squads with Sergeant Telion. They can rip the heart out of your grunts in short order. However, they will likely be a prime target of your artillery. It comes down to a dice-off here, honestly.

 

Telion is quite harsh, really. but he still doesnt Ignore cover saves, meaning i still have a good chance at surviving his shots.

 

Ive been considering some Bodyguards aswell, or maybe Nork, for my command squad. Just so i can palm off my commanders wounds.

 

Once they make it into your backfield

 

Stop right there, for some reason you have this belief that Bikes can turoboboost straight past my lines without being shot.

 

The majority of my weapons are lasguns, no matter how good you cover save is, if its not better than your armour save, i dont really give a damn :ph34r:

 

I don't mean to get into a pissing match with you over your army list. I'm just throwing out variables and counters to your tactics that you will see in competitive Marine lists, which have gone fast and mechanized, or are drop-podded. Vehicles are a lot harder to kill in 5th Edtion, except for your artillery. It's all low-AV, and open-topped to boot.

 

hehehe, The Manticore and Deathstrike are not open topped, the Medusas are, of course, but they are another one of the units which is 'damned if you do, damned if you dont'.

 

I really dont get what kind of army you are trying to say could win. It has no impetus, nothing which really worries me. All you have is marine squads hiding in Rhinos which will blow up very quickly. leaving you stranded.

 

You say 'fast and mechanised' and then say they dont move.

 

You say vehicles are harder to kill, except mine. I disagree, they are more difficult to kill since anti tank is now more expensive and rarer.

[ShinyRhino]

Grey Knights, sure. Seraphim? No. Seraphim are Assault Marine Lite. Looks like beer, smells like beer, but sure doesn't taste like beer.

 

They can't embark in a transport, so will get chewed up before they can get in contact, unless they hug cover and terrain. Once they get locked in, they're not skilled enough to cause you enough worries.

[Vaktathi]

Your arty pops like a tin balloon. One krak missile or lascannon shot can wreck any of your artillery pieces.

That applies to any vehicle basically. They are still hard to kill, at least from the front, than Whirlwinds

 

A mechanized Marine army can hang out, buttoned up in their Rhinos, and still plink away at you from 24" away. The stormbolter will fire two shots, another Marine will fire a single 24" shot from a firing point, and another will fire a frag missile from the other firing point. You're taking whittling casualties every turn, and rolling Leadership tests. You're tempting the Dice Gods with all those rolls.

And you'd be handing the game on a silver platter to the IG player. A shooting war like that is playing exactly into the Imperial Guard's hands and letting them emphasize their greatest strength over a Space Marine army. If you are relying on a couple bolter shots from each unit and a couple S4 blasts, you've lost.

 

Another side-effect of your non-mech, footslogging infantry is the vulnerability to templates, from Whirlwinds, Orbital Bombardments (though only one per game), Thunderfire Cannons, and Conversion Beamers.

Yup, and they are what, 60-70pts each?

[ShinyRhino]

Your arty pops like a tin balloon. One krak missile or lascannon shot can wreck any of your artillery pieces.

That applies to any vehicle basically. They are still hard to kill, at least from the front, than Whirlwinds

 

A mechanized Marine army can hang out, buttoned up in their Rhinos, and still plink away at you from 24" away. The stormbolter will fire two shots, another Marine will fire a single 24" shot from a firing point, and another will fire a frag missile from the other firing point. You're taking whittling casualties every turn, and rolling Leadership tests. You're tempting the Dice Gods with all those rolls.

And you'd be handing the game on a silver platter to the IG player. A shooting war like that is playing exactly into the Imperial Guard's hands and letting them emphasize their greatest strength over a Space Marine army. If you are relying on a couple bolter shots from each unit and a couple S4 blasts, you've lost.

 

Another side-effect of your non-mech, footslogging infantry is the vulnerability to templates, from Whirlwinds, Orbital Bombardments (though only one per game), Thunderfire Cannons, and Conversion Beamers.

Yup, and they are what, 60-70pts each?

 

IG artillery tanks suffer from the Open Topped rule which makes them 1/6th easier to kill compared to other vehicles.

 

Please note that the buttoned up tactic I referred to was in response to one very specific tactic. No, it will not work against a Guard army that stands still and gunlines. But it WILL work against the sample list posted above, as that army spends too much time running across the board, and has nothing firing that will pop the Rhinos, unless they are trying to drop indirect template shots on them from the artillery.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the points cost of the listed options in the third quote. Every upgrade and unit costs points, beyond Blood Angel Deth Company, yes? (this is a rhetorical question, no need to list off every free unit in the game, thanks.) All four of the listed options costs points, but is good at its job of wiping out massed, footslogging infantry.

[Terminus]

Grey Knights, sure. Seraphim? No. Seraphim are Assault Marine Lite. Looks like beer, smells like beer, but sure doesn't taste like beer.

 

They can't embark in a transport, so will get chewed up before they can get in contact, unless they hug cover and terrain. Once they get locked in, they're not skilled enough to cause you enough worries.

I was thinking more along the lines of two melta-pistols and an eviscerator. Makes for a great tank-hunting unit, and Hit&Run can keep them safe, too.

[Resv]

I played a great game this weekend for our local leader board contests versus guard using the new codex. It was at 1500 points which I have found to be an awkward points value for my Bike army but I managed to get in three solid bike units and a unit of tacticals with some heavy support from a Thunder Fire to make up the core of my army. I honestly just used what advice Warp Angel posted to figure out target priority and it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be. The game was Capture and Control on a Pitched Battle deployment. His list looked quite a bit like your list Varath, without the Deathwind missile and one less artillery piece I think. I was astounded to see how much he had on the field. The armor alone was just frighting to behold. If you can get over the shear number of units a guard army can put out then you have overcome the biggest challenge to facing a Guard Army.

 

I chose to go first with one bike squad in reserve and my Thunderfire nicely concealed in the only ruins on the board and my Vindicator right in his face. His attempt to seize initiative failed and I went right ahead and plowed into him. With so many units across the board it was really easy to find "toe holds" into his troops. In the first turn I managed to deal significant damage to his Troops. Having 60+ models can present a wall of bodies but there was no way he could make good use of cover with so many bodies. My Tunderfire accounted for 18 wounds due to scattering in his ranks (one shot was off by 8 inches and still landed 5 hits), my Vindicator another 11 with part of his Command HQ caught in the blast. Twin Linked Bolters in his forward rank took out quite a number as well though I didn't record them. My Melta/Multi-Melta Bikes scored three penetrating hits to his artillery squadron for only one of is tanks being right in range. That was the biggest surprise of the battle, that three melta shots could tear into a unit that only had one tank in range and the rest is partial cover to hide them from my Vindicator.

 

In one turn with some really average rolls I managed to put an amazing amount of hurt on him with two Bike units, a Vindicator, and a Thunderfire. He did lay in some damage on his turn but the kill gap was too wide for him to come back from with only one turn. My tactical marines were a huge target for him with his artillery as well as the Vindicator. The one time he tried to fire one of the big pie plates into my Bikers he screwed the scatter dice so much that he hit mostly his own troops and only three bikes. Over the course of the game all I did was focus on his troops, keeping so close with my Bikes that his big guns would do more damage to himself than me. By turn 4 all of his troops were dead or they ran off the board edge. I had lost a number of Bikes from meltas and lascannon but he could barely get a shot off because he was attacking through his own troops. We had to look up the rules for this in the book and then call an official over to give us a ruling.

 

Since he could no longer hold his objective and could get close enough to challenge mine he gave up. It was by no means a decisive win on my part and I did make a number of mistakes but he didn't do near as well as I thought he would. Guard players have a ton of fancy tricks now but the bread and butter of their armies, the troops, are still weak. I do have respect for them but I am not as outright scared of them as I was.

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

IG artillery tanks suffer from the Open Topped rule which makes them 1/6th easier to kill compared to other vehicles.

 

And as i keep telling you, not all of them do.

 

Please note that the buttoned up tactic I referred to was in response to one very specific tactic. No, it will not work against a Guard army that stands still and gunlines. But it WILL work against the sample list posted above, as that army spends too much time running across the board, and has nothing firing that will pop the Rhinos, unless they are trying to drop indirect template shots on them from the artillery.

 

And im telling you that is *exactly* what i am going to do. Artillery is one of the best weapons against vehicles.

[Resv]

And im telling you that is *exactly* what i am going to do. Artillery is one of the best weapons against vehicles.

 

I agree that artillery is great against vehicles, when it hits. Scatter dice are just too unreliable to efficiently deliver killing blows to vehicles. The rule that 2 Tanks = 3 Tanks will force you to drag out your fire on a single target and squadding artillery forces wasted shots should you succeed at destroying your target on the first shot. You end up with a very expensive unit when cheaper units will do much better.