Know Thy Enemy: Imperial Guard

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

I agree that artillery is great against vehicles, when it hits. Scatter dice are just too unreliable to efficiently deliver killing blows to vehicles. The rule that 2 Tanks = 3 Tanks will force you to drag out your fire on a single target and squadding artillery forces wasted shots should you succeed at destroying your target on the first shot. You end up with a very expensive unit when cheaper units will do much better.

 

Consider that usually when you fight an enemy army, they are usually elite or horde, its just common sense to exaggerate your advantages.

 

I disagree, if im hitting tank with artillery, i want it dead and dead quickly. Either it can be a threat to me (land raider crusader, whirlwind, enemy deathstrike, etc) and i hit it with artillery (and enough artillery to kill it in one turn). If it is not a huge threat to me (Trukks, battlewagons, falcons, etc) then i can let it go unless i dont have any better targets.

 

Scatter dice arnt that unreliable. its 1/3 to hit chance on the dice, then the scatter and the size of the template can usually do the remainder.

 

Also, im considering upgrading one of the Medusas to Bastion breachers, meaning it has 48" range s10 Ap1 Small blast, 2D6 AP against vehicles, meaning that even if the small blast only touches a vehicle, its still S5+2D6, with a direct hit that vehicle is going down.

 

i need to be methodical about my shooting since i can only go into combat when i have the destinct advantage. So anything i shoot needs to die before i move on. I have the capacity to do that aswell.

 

but also, since shots scatter, that means that squadding my artillery is not wasting shots very much since i can guarantee only around 50% hits, so its a way to make sure.

[Resv]

I agree that artillery is great against vehicles, when it hits. Scatter dice are just too unreliable to efficiently deliver killing blows to vehicles. The rule that 2 Tanks = 3 Tanks will force you to drag out your fire on a single target and squadding artillery forces wasted shots should you succeed at destroying your target on the first shot. You end up with a very expensive unit when cheaper units will do much better.

 

Consider that usually when you fight an enemy army, they are usually elite or horde, its just common sense to exaggerate your advantages.

 

I disagree, if im hitting tank with artillery, i want it dead and dead quickly. Either it can be a threat to me (land raider crusader, whirlwind, enemy deathstrike, etc) and i hit it with artillery (and enough artillery to kill it in one turn). If it is not a huge threat to me (Trukks, battlewagons, falcons, etc) then i can let it go unless i dont have any better targets.

 

Scatter dice arnt that unreliable. its 1/3 to hit chance on the dice, then the scatter and the size of the template can usually do the remainder.

 

Also, im considering upgrading one of the Medusas to Bastion breachers, meaning it has 48" range s10 Ap1 Small blast, 2D6 AP against vehicles, meaning that even if the small blast only touches a vehicle, its still S5+2D6, with a direct hit that vehicle is going down.

 

i need to be methodical about my shooting since i can only go into combat when i have the destinct advantage. So anything i shoot needs to die before i move on. I have the capacity to do that aswell.

 

but also, since shots scatter, that means that squadding my artillery is not wasting shots very much since i can guarantee only around 50% hits, so its a way to make sure.

 

I'm still not that convinced. No offense intended truly, but if I get you to waste 1 turn of massive shooting to guarantee destruction of one piece of armor then in my mind I win by preventing you from going for bigger game. I also wouldn't always rely on scatter because of indirect fire rules.

 

Instead of squadding your armor you could buy them separately then move them in formation and have a bit more survivability and have then shoot at the same target. You gain a lot more in fire flexibility as well as survivability. Like I said, if you are spending a turn focusing on my Land Raider while my bikes move in to engage your troops. Your armor is great and very effective but it is easily circumvented. Using Killhammer target priority I wouldn't throw a huge punch at your artillery because I wouldn't need to as they are squadded. If I sent 2 Meltas and 1 Multi Melta at your squad, maybe a fist as well. Move fast enough and I can keep cover up until I am able to engage your armor. 3 penetrating shots at only 1 of your artillery pieces and you are putting the whole squad at risk because of wound allocation rules. I wouldn't need to use blast templates against you at all, in fact I could keep my attention on killing your troops with my big guns. Troops, not armor, are the backbone of 40k. Without them you can't take or hold objectives which puts you at a disadvantage. Krack grenades on every single marine mean that every troop I have is a direct threat to any armor you have. I can keep your fire off if I immobilize 1 of your Tanks in a squadron because I can stay in base to base contact with it maintaining assault.

 

I know this is all subjective conversation and perhaps I can propose something that will help you out in a later game.

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

I'm still not that convinced. No offense intended truly, but if I get you to waste 1 turn of massive shooting to guarantee destruction of one piece of armor then in my mind I win by preventing you from going for bigger game. I also wouldn't always rely on scatter because of indirect fire rules.

 

I dont see how you win. With the 3 Medusas in one squadron i almost guarantee a squadron or vehicle will die each turn they fire. It gives them free Extra armour. I may try and find the points to give them all Closed tops. My tanks look expensive since my Infantry is cheap.

 

You win if you beat me, not if i kill you so hard that i waste ammo.

 

I play Death Korps, in the background we had a 10 year war against a hive even though they surrenderred in year 5 and were all totally destroyed in year 8.

 

Instead of squadding your armor you could move them as one and have a bit more survivability and have then shoot at the same target. You gain a lot more in fire flexibility as well as survivability.

 

I have 5 Heavy Support vehicles there, i *need* to squadron them otherwise i have to remove some.

 

For the Medusa squadron, i have a choice of Medusas, Collosi (more expensive, very good against Infantry, bad against tanks, cant fire direct), Griffons (cheap, accurate, not very powerful) or Bassies (good all rounder, 36" minimum range sucks). The Medusas are a brilliant nuking unit. Consider units such as Terminators with Lightning claws, Assault marines, Honour guard.

 

All of these units work by defeating their enemy with 1 decisive blow, being caught in a grind gets them killed. The Difference is that you do it with combat, i do it with shooting.

 

Like I said, if you are spending a turn focusing on my Land Raider while my bikes move in to engage your troops. Your armor is great and very effective but it is easily circumvented

 

Funnily enough, i have infantry there too against this very eventuality! Also, i dont fight marines all that often, and things like The Manticore are worth their weight in Gold against armies such as, say, orks.

 

Using Killhammer target priority I wouldn't throw a huge punch at your artillery because I wouldn't need to as they are squadded. If I sent 2 Meltas and 1 Multi Melta at your squad, maybe a fist as well. Move fast enough and I can keep cover up until I am able to engage your armor. 3 penetrating shots at only 1 of your artillery pieces and you are putting the whole squad at risk because of wound allocation rules. I wouldn't need to use blast templates against you at all, in fact I could keep my attention on killing your troops with my big guns.

 

I dont know what this Killhammer thing is, but i dont get it how you are banking on me not noticing this unit of marines with tank killing weapons while they run at my tanks (not quite sure how when you consider that my Infantry line will be extending past yours.)

 

Troops, not armor, are the backbone of 40k. Without them you can't take or hold objectives which puts you at a disadvantage. Krack grenades on every single marine mean that every troop I have is a direct threat to any armor you have.

 

Which is why the Infantry is rushing forward to prevent you from being able to focus on the tanks.

 

If you kill the tanks...big deal, its only about 700 points, i still have plenty of infantry after that.

 

Remember that each turn i have:

Sanctioned psykers (either pinning/fleeing a unit or Blasting them)

3x Medusas

possible deathstrike

D3 S10 Ap4 Large blasts from the Manticore (4 times)

 

Thats plenty to make alot of armies keep their heads down.

 

I can keep your fire off if I immobilize 1 of your Tanks in a squadron because I can stay in base to base contact with it maintaining assault.

 

Immobilized= kill, so no you cant :P

 

I know this is all subjective conversation and perhaps I can propose something that will help you out in a later game.

 

Such as? You havent proposed anything beyond what i already know as a weakness to my army, nobody has.

 

Im here to directly dispute that Charging at guard in combat squads is the best method to deal with Guard, im saying that that is absolute suicide, and thus i think every marine player should try it out.

 

possible changes to the army i have been thinking about include:

 

Replace Deathstrike with another Manticore

Replace 2 Medusas with 2 Banewolfs.

 

Not sure about it yet, but it wouldnt make much of a difference to my tactics.

[Gornall]

I guess I'm confused about the point you're trying to make, Varath. Are you saying that we should all bow down to our new IG overlords? Yes, the new codex does give the IG some more options, but I don't see anything really broken about it. I think the 2000 point list I run would do pretty well without too much tweaking, leaving things pretty much up to the skill of the generals and/or the dice gods. And that's exactly what we're hoping for, right?

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

I guess I'm confused about the point you're trying to make, Varath. Are you saying that we should all bow down to our new IG overlords? Yes, the new codex does give the IG some more options, but I don't see anything really broken about it. I think the 2000 point list I run would do pretty well without too much tweaking, leaving things pretty much up to the skill of the generals and/or the dice gods. And that's exactly what we're hoping for, right?

 

Partly you should bow down :)

 

But really, im saying that the original post really just is misrepresenting the Guard and isnt doing anyone a favour with the tactics which will lead to defeat most times they hit the field.

 

His tactic of 'Combat squadding and charging at the guard' will simply leave alot of Dead marines.

 

Against Guard, you CANNOT try and match them head on, because quite simply, you will lose. Guard are one of the most powerful direct armies in the game.

 

What a marine army needs to do is not react to the guard advance in the same way, but focus on their Strengths. Hit fast, Hit hard, and send them running.

 

Seperate your army into seperate components, Flanking with mobile marines and dropping in Drop Pods (maybe only 1 to avoid the Fleet officer).

 

Charge multiple units with your assault marines.

 

Seriously, Guard need to be stopped quickly otherwise they will just take over and beat you with attrition. Dont let them get to that stage. Knock as many down early and your opponent will have alot of trouble in the later game.

[Olesh]

I'm highly amused at the army list you posted. You are determined to play away from IG's strengths.

 

Let's start with this:

(my pressure unit, they have over 100 Guardsmen of various types running at them

Actually, with the 'move move move' order, i can run around quite quickly.

but alot of my guard i can help with the Commissar Lords Ld, the standards reroll and the 'get back in the fight' order if needs be.

stop right there, for some reason you have this belief that Bikes can turoboboost straight past my lines without being shot.

Scatter dice arnt that unreliable. its 1/3 to hit chance on the dice, then the scatter and the size of the template can usually do the remainder.

Funnily enough, i have infantry there too against this very eventuality!

Which is why the Infantry is rushing forward to prevent you from being able to focus on the tanks.

If you kill the tanks...big deal, its only about 700 points, i still have plenty of infantry after that.

m here to directly dispute that Charging at guard in combat squads is the best method to deal with Guard, im saying that that is absolute suicide, and thus i think every marine player should try it out.

 

You mentioned elsewhere regarding creed giving scouts to your artillery - so yes, you could move your deathstrike or manticore that way. Can't scout a squadron when only one out of the three tanks has scouts, though, sorry.

 

Move move move does not allow you to run more than the maximum 12" in a turn; if you are using that order you can neither assault nor shoot. If you are advancing with guardsmen (particularly a squad of 20) you are unlikely to be getting a cover save, and yes, if you go second you will take two turns of shooting before you can get into rapid fire range, flamer range, or meltagun range, if the enemy chooses not to advance forward - turns you are taking casualties while running forward instead of shooting.

 

Regarding assaults: 20 guardsmen charging is 40 attacks; 20 will hit, 6/7 will wound, you have 2 dead marines. The marines attack first, though, killing one with the powerfist, and 3-4 more from regular attacks, and so will win combat easily on average. Get back in the fight does you no good when your squad has been run down and massacred. You obviously did not crunch the numbers on this.

Even if you piled your entire infantry platoon together, if the marines charge you, they're getting 3 power fist and 18 regular attacks; ~2 power fist wounds, and 5-6 wounds from the rest of the squad. 37 regular guard attacks (marines hit first, remember) and 3 from the commander gives you 2 dead marines, losing combat by 3 or 4. Without a commissar or a Lord commissar in range, that platoon is broken and wiped entirely.

Crunch the numbers for yourself; marines can charge absurdly large numbers of guardsmen and either win due to sweeping advance or tarpit them for multiple rounds while inflicting great casualties. It's even more absurd with bikes, as guardsmen inflict only half as many wounds (36 lasgun shots or guard attacks, on average, to inflict a single wound to a bike - and with an apothecary, that jumps to 72 per dead marine or bike).

 

In fact, bikes CAN turboboost past your lines without being shot. That 24" can certainly keep them out of rapid fire range if you are advancing forward, and if you turn back to try and inflict casualties on the bikes, you will have to dedicate a significant portion of your entire infantry to scratch them. Certainly, your odds of stopping them before they wipe out your artillery in the back field is minimal,

 

Scatter dice are unreliable against vehicles. Against a rhino or similar sized vehicle, 3" will take a centered hole off the vehicle if the scatter die is not aligned perfectly, and unless you're using a devil dog within 12" or basion-breacher shells from a medusa, you aren't hurting the vehicle if it scatters - and even bastion breachers will only, on average glance AV12 on a partial. Neither of the artillery mortars is capable of firing indirect, and if you are keeping your other artillery pieces out of LOS you are firing indirectly as well, which means you're only reliably hitting a vehicle 1/3 of the time per shot, or averaging a hit 71% of the time. Direct fire improves your odds very slightly but not enough to guarantee a hit with even one artillery piece, only a good chance of doing so.

 

Remember that your psykers are just as vulnerable as the rest of your infantry, but a higher value target. Don't expect them to be intact for long or even be useful, once their numbers are reduced to the point where they're no longer a credible threat.

 

And if you're moving your infantry forward, what infantry do you have protecting your artillery from outflankers or bikes that turboboost around your lines into the back field? The threat of infantry which remain incapable of inflicting any serious wounds on MEQ units will not stop the antitank from doing their job.

 

700 points is 1/3 of your army, and without the tanks the only thing remaining to shoot at is your infantry which, by the time your tanks die, will already be dramatically reduced since even basic bolters chew them up (1 bolter shot = 2/3 hits = 4/9 wounds = 4 guardsmen dead per 9 bolter shots, or slightly more than 7x the casualty rate of your lasguns.

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

You mentioned elsewhere regarding creed giving scouts to your artillery - so yes, you could move your deathstrike or manticore that way. Can't scout a squadron when only one out of the three tanks has scouts, though, sorry.

 

Imperial Guard codex, page 57

 

"choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army"

 

not a good start, ay? :)

 

Move move move does not allow you to run more than the maximum 12" in a turn; if you are using that order you can neither assault nor shoot. If you are advancing with guardsmen (particularly a squad of 20) you are unlikely to be getting a cover save, and yes, if you go second you will take two turns of shooting before you can get into rapid fire range, flamer range, or meltagun range, if the enemy chooses not to advance forward - turns you are taking casualties while running forward instead of shooting.

 

Yes, i will not be moving more than 12", where did i say i was?

 

I cannot assault nor shoot, yes i know this.

 

I am unlikely to get a cover save? now hold on a minute, do you play with terrain? I dont remember the last time when i had a unit which wasnt in cover, and ive been playing this kind of guard army since the beginning of 4th!

 

If the enemy chooses not to move forward, i have won the game. I hold complete table control and he has done nothing to stop my advance.

 

I am taking casualties yes. But where?

 

What are they shooting?

 

I keep mentioning that i know i will take casualties, i know i will and i will happily take them off with a shovel.

 

The thing is that your speaking so generally, what are they shooting? What is more important to them to kill? The Officers? The Ogryns? The Vets? The Psykers? The infantry?

 

Regarding assaults: 20 guardsmen charging is 40 attacks; 20 will hit, 6/7 will wound, you have 2 dead marines. The marines attack first, though, killing one with the powerfist, and 3-4 more from regular attacks, and so will win combat easily on average. Get back in the fight does you no good when your squad has been run down and massacred. You obviously did not crunch the numbers on this.

 

*sigh* Im going to charge 20 Guardsmen alone into a marine unit which hasnt been hurt and without any support at all?

 

If i am charging, it is to gain ground or finish something off. I will use 'For Cadia' to give them Fearless and Furious Charge. I will fire the 2 Flamers or meltas first, i will more likely charge with the Flamer units.

 

If i charge them in, it means ive killed off a good number of marines.

 

Charging 20 Guardsmen in is 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and around 3 marines die. If i have only left 5 in the unit then there is a good chance that the sergeant could be taken out, if not its 4 attacks (3 hits, 2 wounds, possibly 2 losses, maybe 1) and the sarge killing 1. Its around equal.

 

You obviously didnt read my posts at all.

 

Even if you piled your entire infantry platoon together, if the marines charge you, they're getting 3 power fist and 18 regular attacks; ~2 power fist wounds, and 5-6 wounds from the rest of the squad. 37 regular guard attacks (marines hit first, remember) and 3 from the commander gives you 2 dead marines, losing combat by 3 or 4. Without a commissar or a Lord commissar in range, that platoon is broken and wiped entirely.

 

I will not put a full squad together, 10 or 20 is best, 20 is my favorite. If the marines charge me then ive screwed up since i havent shot them enough.

 

So what your saying is if i put all my guardsmen into 1 unit and let a full unit of marines charge me i will lose? Shock horror!

 

Crunch the numbers for yourself; marines can charge absurdly large numbers of guardsmen and either win due to sweeping advance or tarpit them for multiple rounds while inflicting great casualties. It's even more absurd with bikes, as guardsmen inflict only half as many wounds (36 lasgun shots or guard attacks, on average, to inflict a single wound to a bike - and with an apothecary, that jumps to 72 per dead marine or bike).

 

Crunching numbers is an entirely unrepresentative way that you should play a game.

 

Ok, so that unit with an Apothecary is a command squad on bikes, no? so 205 points.

 

Hit with Psyker unit to reduce Ld to 1, then hit with a manticore or the Medusas. Kill 2 and that squad will be pinned and fleeing.

 

Hell, if you pimped that squad out to the max, i would laugh so hard if my Deathstrike came into action then ;)

 

In fact, bikes CAN turboboost past your lines without being shot. That 24" can certainly keep them out of rapid fire range if you are advancing forward, and if you turn back to try and inflict casualties on the bikes, you will have to dedicate a significant portion of your entire infantry to scratch them. Certainly, your odds of stopping them before they wipe out your artillery in the back field is minimal,

 

Funnily enough, i also mentioned that fast moving things were a weakness to guard.

 

Im considering Dropping the Ogryns and getting Rough Riders against this very thing. They would do quite well, i think

 

But Turboboosting bikes probably arnt the best tactic against guard due to:

Banewolves

Rough Riders

Executioner (enough firepower to get through Turboboost save)

Plasma sentinels

Collossi

Deathstrikes

 

Scatter dice are unreliable against vehicles. Against a rhino or similar sized vehicle, 3" will take a centered hole off the vehicle if the scatter die is not aligned perfectly, and unless you're using a devil dog within 12" or basion-breacher shells from a medusa, you aren't hurting the vehicle if it scatters - and even bastion breachers will only, on average glance AV12 on a partial. Neither of the artillery mortars is capable of firing indirect, and if you are keeping your other artillery pieces out of LOS you are firing indirectly as well, which means you're only reliably hitting a vehicle 1/3 of the time per shot, or averaging a hit 71% of the time. Direct fire improves your odds very slightly but not enough to guarantee a hit with even one artillery piece, only a good chance of doing so.

 

Artillery scattering is around equal to bs3 due to the 1/3 hit chance and -Bs when you fire.

 

Strangely enough thats the same BS the guardsmen have to begin with.

 

Remember that your psykers are just as vulnerable as the rest of your infantry, but a higher value target. Don't expect them to be intact for long or even be useful, once their numbers are reduced to the point where they're no longer a credible threat.

 

so youll be shooting the psykers then? Cool. means the Ogryns, vets and 96 Guardsmen get there with less molestation.

 

See what im doing?

 

And if you're moving your infantry forward, what infantry do you have protecting your artillery from outflankers or bikes that turboboost around your lines into the back field? The threat of infantry which remain incapable of inflicting any serious wounds on MEQ units will not stop the antitank from doing their job.

 

Turboboost i already mentioned, outflank? Well thats a toughie. If i deploy centrally its pretty good, but really? if they outflank, they have a turn to kill me, afterwhich they will disappear.

 

If they manage to kill the tanks? Oh well, the Infantry are the main damage.

 

You just dont grasp it, Im a guardsman. EVERYTHING is Expendable.

 

700 points is 1/3 of your army, and without the tanks the only thing remaining to shoot at is your infantry which, by the time your tanks die, will already be dramatically reduced since even basic bolters chew them up (1 bolter shot = 2/3 hits = 4/9 wounds = 4 guardsmen dead per 9 bolter shots, or slightly more than 7x the casualty rate of your lasguns.

 

In which you have not factored in:

 

Cover, my shooting, any movement on your part, going to ground or the 'incoming' order.

 

Please, ive made my case for this thread, i dont want to argue all night with someone who misquotes rules and forgets the ones which he doesnt like.

 

Good day to you.

[Sigismund Himself]

Let's keep it civil, gents. Leave out the personal sniping.

 

Honestly, I think the best solution is for both of you to play a game against one another and then post the battle report here :)

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

Thats the kind of Modding i can get behind.

 

Im sorry, Sigismund, he got me riled up at the beginning by trying to take the intellectual high ground.

 

Thats mine, damnit! :)

[kaiserstole20]

Lysander looks like he just got even more valuable if that was possible. Shouldn't he be good defense against the psykers and pinning?

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

Lysander looks like he just got even more valuable if that was possible. Shouldn't he be good defense against the psykers and pinning?

 

Lysander is the kind of Character which most Guardsmen will hate as we dont have any character (except Stracken or Yarrik) who could take him on and win, and he takes an inordinate amount of shooting to kill.

 

EDIT: OH! right, Stubborn vs Weaken resolve.

 

Reading it, it seems its effective against it, so yes he would.

 

The psykers would just have to blast things instead, damn stubborn marines.

[waaanial00]

So Varath, as you are posting in the fighting Imperial Guard thread and you seem to know quite a bit about Guard.

 

How would you propose beating them?

 

I am not being sarcastic or nasty to you in case you think I am. I was just wondering if there was any particular tactics or combinations you can think of to help defeat the lasgun hoard?

 

Wan

[ShinyRhino]

Varath,

Resv's point about cover saves is that you have to have more than half your unit in cover to gain the save. With 20 Guardsmen in a unit, it will be tough to keep the required amount in cover, and still advance. Even harder if you are avoiding bunching them up. The tables I play on are average for terrain placement. A few soft cover objects, a few buildings, and a few hills. This is on a 6'x4' board.

Morale will be your biggest challenge. You're soaking a ton of casualties, and rolling morale a lot when you do so. Guard morale is abyssmal, unless they are within the 24" circle for Creed. Unfortunately, not all of your units will be in that range when they take their tests.

 

You refute the turboboosting Bikes scenario with units that are not in your army list. Why?

 

As for target priority, here's how I'd work on the infantry elements of your force (using my standard army which includes Whirlwinds, anti-tank Bikers, a Chapter Master, one unit of Telion snipers, and at least three Tactical Squads in Rhinos):

 

1. Psykers. This is a small unit, and won't take long to whittle down to a manageable size. Maybe one turn of long-range shooting with the Whirlie, frag missiles. I don't know the rules for this Morale-reducing and pinning power. What is its range?

 

2. Command Squad. It's the heart and soul of your army. I'll likely hit it with my snipers and the Master's Orbital Bombardment. Telion cuts out the juicy parts like the Medic and Advisors.

 

3. Grunts on the flanks. Chopping the edges off your advancing gunline would allow me to pincer said line and whittle from the outsides inward.

 

4. Ogryns. Too tough to kill, so I let them run around, avoiding them as I can.

 

 

 

Your list does look strong, and I'd find it a challenge to play against one like it at my shop.

Folks are just trying to point out that the game will not be as easy as they feel you're claiming. No need to take anything personally. We're all here to discuss tactics, not who has the bigger ePeen. This is supposed to be a discussion of the game, not a pissing contest of whose got the bigger, badder unit in their Codex.

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

So Varath, as you are posting in the fighting Imperial Guard thread and you seem to know quite a bit about Guard.

 

How would you propose beating them?

 

I am not being sarcastic or nasty to you in case you think I am. I was just wondering if there was any particular tactics or combinations you can think of to help defeat the lasgun hoard?

 

Dont worry :) i wont bite your head off.

 

Right, the way to fight Imperial Guard is, of course, entirely dependant on what kind of build they are going for.

 

Deployment:

 

Imperial Guard relies on putting a large amount of force into one area while keeping the others busy, meaning that the do casualties all over but hit you hard in 1 or 2 places. Since you are marines, he will need to focus alot of attention to do the damage he needs as being a guard army means he needs shooting to go his way fast.

 

Deploy so he has to spread his forces around to get your whole force, deploying your army in duos and trios over the board will cause headaches for him if he tries to mass against you and break you.

 

Movement:

 

Things you need to do are make sure all of your units are well supported, never leave one alone unless its on a specific mission and its fast enough to escape.

 

Focus on your manouvrability! Land Speeders, Rhinos, Drop pods, Land Raiders, bikes and assault squads means you have a hell of alot of fast moving units which can get into position and fire very quickly.

 

Dont attack with half a heart, if you are going to attack you need to hit it fast and hard and basically annihilate it before it can take its toll on you.

 

 

Shooting:

 

Weapons which you should rely on are heavy bolters, missile launchers and flamers. Flamers are especially good at knocking the stuffing out

 

Fire Discipline:

 

Imperial Guard defeats its enemies by keeping strict fire discipline and so the only way to match them is to do the same back. You need to rely on the right weapon at the right time at the right target and, most importantly, in the right order.

 

Whenever i do my shooting phase i look over at the whole battlefield and make a loose plan of what i will shoot at, then begin with the obvious things.

 

Shoot what has to shoot first. Rapid fire with only one target in range? Shoot those things first. Strict fire discipline means that not a shot of yours should be wasted when it could be used in a better way against a different target in a different time.

 

When aiming for a rapid fire or an assault, make sure you are in range of 2 or 3 targets if you can, since Imperial Guard are so fragile you dont want any attack of yours to be wasted.

 

Heavy weapons should usually be left till last as they have the best breadth of targets to choose from.

 

things which guard players hate:

 

Whirlwinds

Thunderfire cannons

Sternguard (30" range *and* the no cover one)

assault squads

Bike squads

 

The way to win a war is to destroy your enemies ability to defeat you. If your mechanised you aim for anti tank, if your horde you aim for his anti infantry, if your fast you aim for his artillery, since no matter how fast you are, shells outrun you.

 

Assault:

 

Always always always assault more than 1 unit if you can.

 

The amount of times ive seen a land raider rush and disgorge termies only to see them kill the squad they hit several times over then disappear in the next shooting phase is laughable.

 

The more mass damage you can do, the better you will break your opponent and his army.

 

Also, dont rely on Outflankers and deep strikers, fleet officer does a number on them.

 

Basically, what you need to do is be methodical and realise that as he outnumbers you you cannot go head to head 1 for 1 units with him, each one of your units needs to kill multiples of his, whether its mass assault, quick and decisive firepower or good old fashioned templates, this is what you need to remember, otherwise he will be able to overwhelm you.

[Warp Angel]

Overall, I believe the key is to take advantage of their inherent vulnerability. They have lots of big guns, and while us marines don't have too many of those, we must remember that such bellow-average things like frag missiles are A LOT scarrier when they're used against a swarm of T3 guys with nothing but 4+ cover saves to keep their skins. I had 3 tactical squads shooting missile launchers and a land raider firing a heavy bolter into that infantry, and the poor guards kept dying and getting leadership tests simply because even in a 4+ cover save they just can't save all those wounds.

 

And that's the point of my original post.

That and the tough balance the guard player has between powerful but fragile and small units vs. horde spam, and making good use of his force org slots.

 

You can't take 2 Astropaths/Masters of the Fleet if you take a Lord Commisar.

You can't take 3 Stormtrooper squads if you want any Ogryns or Psykers, or want to use Marbo.

Veterans loaded down with melta weapons and demolition packs will run 30% or so of the time after taking 3 casualties.

Upgrading veterans with carapace armor and lots of special/heavy weapons choices takes points away from more durable units.

Valkyries can only be in one place at a time, unless you take multiple squadrons of them, then you limit Sentinels and Hellhounds.

Artillery looks awesome until you realize that every artillery squadron/model takes away a Leman Russ.

Leman Russ squadrons look awesome until you read the squadron rules and realize how vulnerable that 450+ points is.

Scoring for guard can be quite complicated if you rely on the powerful/potent (but small) units, as they die very easily.

Kill point missions, especially using the elite and potent troops choices, place the guard player at a serious disadvantage.

 

Its a balancing act in every aspect of the guard codex. Guard are potent, but they are inherently limited by individual unit weaknesses and limited force org slots. Every army will have weaknesses that can be exploited and the original post was to point out individual unit weaknesses - not dissect entire guard armies. Every list will be different, and the idea was to post a way to handle individual units so that any player could have a fair idea of what tactics might work given their specific situation.

[Warp Angel]

Varath -

 

Overall, your comments about a "pressure" guard army being the best choice are MOSTLY spot on. I disagree with some of your stated tactics and unit selections... I'm a serious guard player too. Your list is one that my Marine list or my friend's 'nid list would eat without too much trouble in most games.

 

What I see lacks the durability that I'd want to see in an army to be able to hang on to objectives and take things late game.

 

As I've stated many times before, the trick with guard (and I'm not claiming that I've figured it out yet) will be BALANCE and overwhelming target priority with that balance. Essentially... too many choices. It's the same thing I do with my Marines and I've been VERY successful with them.

 

I'm thinking that the following list (don't have my codex with me, and haven't memorized points yet) would be stupidly good.

 

1) HQ - Master of the Fleet, Creed, weapons mix of choice, Chimera.

2) HQ - Lord Commisar with adequate CC capability (I think he can get a Chimera, if so yes)

3) Elite - 5 Ogryns to be led by the Lord Commisar

4) Elite - Stormtroopers x10 with plasma/flamer

5) Troop - Infantry w/melta command in Chimera, troops mix grenande launchers and flamers

6) Troop - Infantry w/melta command in Chimera, troops mix grenade launchers and flamers

7) Troop - Veterans with carapace (maybe) and special weapons

8) Troop - Veterans with carapace (maybe) and special weapons

9) Fast - Valkyrie Squadron x2 for transporting veterans... kept in reserve to come in late for objectives and to exploit enemy weaknesses

10) Fast - Vendetta/Valkyrie x1 for transporting storm troopers

11) Fast - Hellhound variant

12) Heavy - Leman Russ (up to 2)

13) Heavy - Arty (up to 2)

 

Should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000-2500 points by rough estimate.

 

There are at least 15 total targets for your opponent to eliminate.

You have enough separate armor targets (9 total) that you've probably overwhelmed your opponent's anti-tank capability.

You have enough mobility to do the concentration of firepower thing that you like so well and the ability to attack weak areas of the enemy.

You have the flexibility to use your Lord Commisar/Creed/Valkyries/Troop mix in a variety of ways.

 

You have a fair amount of anti-tank, you have the ability to survive/win hand to hand, you have the anti-horde capability you want, you have multiple order-issuing units, you have durability in scoring units by keeping them in transports.

 

But that list is still going to have issues with some armies. I really wouldn't want to face a demon army with it, if they got good reserve rolls. Drop pods would probably eat it, despite the single Master of the Fleet, and there's some terrain setups and specific army configs that would give it fits.

 

And all that supports my point that no guard army can do it all. Look at how many force org slots got used up. All the fast, two of the heavy, two of the elite, and both HQs. There's no Marbo, no Psykers, only a handful of heavy tanks, no heavy weapon or special weapon squads...

[Olesh]

Let's keep it civil, gents. Leave out the personal sniping.

 

Honestly, I think the best solution is for both of you to play a game against one another and then post the battle report here :)

 

I agree. No amount of explaining is as good as a demonstration, but AU is a bit far to swim.

 

Maybe I'll try and convince Warp Angel to run a copy of the list for exhibition purposes at some point, time permitting.

[Warp Angel]

Let's keep it civil, gents. Leave out the personal sniping.

 

Honestly, I think the best solution is for both of you to play a game against one another and then post the battle report here ;)

 

I agree. No amount of explaining is as good as a demonstration, but AU is a bit far to swim.

 

Maybe I'll try and convince Warp Angel to run a copy of the list for exhibition purposes at some point, time permitting.

 

You're really wanting to get another victory against me, aren't you? :P

[Varath- Lord Impaler]

If you want that i'll have to give you the updated list ive been trying out, lacks some of the heavier things but has abit more punch i think.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I think one of the best things to use against Guard is an allied Inquisitor Lord (cheap) and a Vindicare assassin. The Vindicare can pick off stuff like the Master Vox, the order-giver-dude, medics, power fist Commissars, etc. And he can put a good-sized hole through any tank. For the IQL, I would suggest some anti-psyker wargear due to the popularity of Psyker Battle Squads.

[Gornall]

Yeah, I would love to see some BatReps from you guys. Also, with the Pysker Squads, are Librarians going to be more useful in the metagame?

[Terminus]

This "discussion" is getting silly now, and has basically degenerated into a pissing contest of hypotheticals.

 

"I totally shot you!"

"Nu-uh, I have super wizard armor on!"

"Oh ya? Well, I got alien armor piercing bullets!"

"Nu-uh, my predator stealth field stops alien bullets!"

"Oh ya? Well your mom is gay."

etc.

 

 

The victor between the two codices would be determined by a combination of individual player skill and experience, and luck/army composition. Why don't you guys play a game over Vassal and share the battle report? Put your minis where your mouth is. ^_^

 

 

Also, all this talk of multiple Astropaths/Officers of the Fleet/whatever is wrong. The codex is very clear that you can have ONE Astropath, and ONE Officer of the Fleet, and ONE Master of Ordnance, and then up to 2 bodyguards. So no taking 2 Astropaths and almost guaranteeing all your reserves arrive turn 2 on the side you want, or taking three Officers of the Fleet so your opponent's reserves pretty much never come back. Hell, if there's no limit like some of you guys are saying, I'm taking 10 Masters of Ordnance, and covering your half of the table with pie plates every turn.

[Olesh]

Your perception of a pissing contest is merely that - your perception. There is some very opinionated discussion going on; my opinion is one way, etc. Also, there is some rules debating going on, as well as tactical disagreements (for example, the effectiveness of scattering templates vs vehicles). A moderator already stepped in after the debate began to get excessively heated and has since become more calm and constructive, but it was never a 'pissing contest'; it was an argument.

 

 

The victor between the two codices would be determined by a combination of individual player skill and experience, and luck/army composition. Why don't you guys play a game over Vassal and share the battle report? Put your minis where your mouth is. :P

 

I was planning on eventually running a game or two with Warp Angel; one against my current all comers and one against his, but that's as schedules and time permits. A detailed battle report would more or less be the entire point of the exercise. I'll have to experiment with Vassal; I'd never heard of it before.

 

EDIT: Quick experimentation shows promise; I'm going to see about running a 1000 point game within the next few days if I have time.

 

Also, all this talk of multiple Astropaths/Officers of the Fleet/whatever is wrong. The codex is very clear that you can have ONE Astropath, and ONE Officer of the Fleet, and ONE Master of Ordnance, and then up to 2 bodyguards. So no taking 2 Astropaths and almost guaranteeing all your reserves arrive turn 2 on the side you want, or taking three Officers of the Fleet so your opponent's reserves pretty much never come back. Hell, if there's no limit like some of you guys are saying, I'm taking 10 Masters of Ordnance, and covering your half of the table with pie plates every turn.

 

One per company command squad. See Warp Angel above, pointing out that taking the Lord Commisar restricts you to taking only a single of each type of advisor. Given the limited number of HQ choices you can field under normal circumstances, you can have up to one of each kind of advisor plus the two bodyguards per squad, for a total of two of each (and four bodyguards), in their two separate squads.

[Terminus]

It just occurred to me that someone may want to field multiple Company Command squads, and I rushed to amend my post but you beat me to it. :P I withdraw my previous statement. It is quite possible to get 2+ reserve rolls on turn 2, and your opponent getting -2 to theirs! Crazy. Combined with an Elite choice Inquisitor+Mystics, Deep Strike armies may as well just not play. Which is convenient, since most of their army starts the game still packed up, so there's not as much post-game clean-up. :P

[waaanial00]

See everyone raves about mystics but in the two games I have seen them used they havent exactly done much. Game 1 the guy completely funked with his plasma guns as the guys holding them were BS3 and game 2 I dropped outside of his shooting range anyway.

 

Have people had really bad experiences with these guys or is it just the case of reading the rules and seeing doom?

 

Any Chance someone can put up a short explanation about the multitude of special characters and their special rules. I dont want quotes because that is against the rules but a quick synoposis would be nice. That way we can try and see weaknesses as a whole.

 

Wan