Grey Knight Questions / fluff

[Secondwind]

Ok this is mainly the thoughts I have been having while I have been trying to figure out how to convert Power armour grey knights / depict dreadnoughts. However I felt these questions were more fluff related so I stuck it here, if the mods feel this is out of place feel free to move it to the modelling or converting section of the forums and i apologise for any hassle caused.

 

 

Question 1: Backpacks - How do grey knights store ammunition / fuel etc? Are following backpack styles avoided by grey knights due to requiring more flexibility/ teleport restrictions / alternate ways of holding ammo? or does it seem sensible to convert these backpack styles onto the models?

 

The average stormbolter will use more ammunition than a regular bolter, not to mention grey knights have their stormbolters with an ammo belt feed! Is there any documentation in the fluff in regards to where they store their ammunition? Is it just presumed to be in their backpack? Pedro Kantor's backpack seems quite a sound solution to the problem with what looks like two ammo drums built into it.

 

Psycannons "are based on bolt weapons" replacing the bolts with special ammo and "The psycannon's weight is offset by the use of suspensors to permit it to be fired on the move" this text if i remember correctly is VERY VERY similar to the deathwatch killteam heavy bolters which worked in a similar fashion to psycannons yet had the different ammo types and str value. They still wore the heavier ammo filled backpacks that standard heavy bolter marines carry however.

 

Incinerators, no marine models in power armour have had specific heavy flamer models released thus this is a fuzzy area. I have seen marines with converted multimeltas into heavy flamers which seemed quite a plausable idea. Imperial guard heavy flamers tend to use an extra backpack for fuel.

 

 

----The exception totally blowing this out the water are sisters of battle who use the same backpack for heavybolters, multimeltas, heavy flamers though this could just be because GW hasnt produced any new models for their infantry in what feels like a decade.

 

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Question 2: As stated above psycannons are based on bolt weapons, I am tempted on attempting to model a lower slung psycannon more similar in style to the current heavy bolter however would this seem silly technology wise? as the few images of psycannons make them out to be lighter, smaller and easier to hold thus would this way of carrying them would seem out of place.

 

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Question 3: Are there no squad markings for Grey knights / other chamber militants of the inquisition?

 

 

Grey knights- Left shoulderpad chapter marking, right for personal heraldry? if they have a "shield" they show their heraldry there?

 

Common Astartes Chapers use the left shoulderpad commonly for chapter markings, right shoulderpad squad depiction (troops / fast attack etc).

 

Sisters of Battle - left shoulderpad inquisition markings?, right for fleur de lays (or however its spelt)

 

Deathwatch - Left shoulderpad for inquisition DW marking, right for original chapter they were from marking.

 

 

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Question 4: Do only Terminators have those ornate shoulder pads / do they represent anything special? The PAGK shoulderpads seem to vary according to the artist and the models seem to have very standard / plain shoulderpads (maybe due to modelling detail constraints?)

 

Page 9 of the DH codex looks like it has a picture of the PAGK's having the more ornate ones, just curious if there is any reason why they dont as I might convert some to have it using Death Watch bits.

 

 

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Question 5: Nemesis force weapons

-As far as I can see there is no restriction on what the "weapon" may be though the halberd / swords seem the more common varients. Ben Counters GK novels imply that the hammer varient is rare and most other ones are specially crafted by the chapters artificers.

-I presume powerfists are still classed as weapons thus would it be possible for a NFW in a "powerfist" shape or are we looking at "weapons" in the more conventional shape / form?

-----------------------------------

 

Question 6: Dreadnoughts

-Is there any documentation in regards to how GK dreadnoughts look?

-I presume they would all be more like the venerable / ironclad in looks. Also dreadnought close combat weapons, the NFW that forgeworld does is an interesting idea, but wouldnt it reduce a dreadnoughts ability to pickup / hold objects?

-Like above, couldnt the powerfist / claw shaped DCCW still have the special runes / mechanics inbuilt into it to be as potent vs daemons like other NFW?

-----------------------------------

Last question:

Is it generally more accepted that GK dreadnoughts are much rarer things than SM ones? -If so why? I imagine its due to the nature of their work or could it just be another inconsistency in the fluff?

 

To quote the SM codex: "Many an assault commences with a wave of dreadnoughts to first drive a wedge through the enemys defences." this really throws up a different idea to "It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a dreadnought".

 

 

 

Lastly thanks for any comments or help people have on these questions!

[jeffersonian000]

Question 1: Backpacks - How do grey knights store ammunition / fuel etc? Are following backpack styles avoided by grey knights due to requiring more flexibility/ teleport restrictions / alternate ways of holding ammo? or does it seem sensible to convert these backpack styles onto the models?

 

PAGK models show an ammo-hopper mounted to their lower back, just under the backpack, with an armoured ammo-belt snaking up to the wrist mount stormbolter. GKT’s are modeled with box magazines clipped behind one or both of their hips.

 

 

Psycannons "are based on bolt weapons" replacing the bolts with special ammo and "The psycannon's weight is offset by the use of suspensors to permit it to be fired on the move" this text if i remember correctly is VERY VERY similar to the deathwatch killteam heavy bolters which worked in a similar fashion to psycannons yet had the different ammo types and str value. They still wore the heavier ammo filled backpacks that standard heavy bolter marines carry however.

 

Pycannons are not based on bolter and are modeled with no ammo at all, as they are actually firing “bolts” of psychic energy per the fluff (psycannon rules first appeared in Epic as a weapon used by Psi-Titans, which pre-dates the release of Grey Knights a chapter). Everyone gets confused by the Psycannon ammo wargear being actual bolter bolts that are sanctified and are only used in bolters, but not actual Psycannons. Every psycannon I’ve seen modeled by GW/FW shows only cabling attaching to the armour of the Grey Knight with no ammo or ammo bins displayed.

 

 

Incinerators, no marine models in power armour have had specific heavy flamer models released thus this is a fuzzy area. I have seen marines with converted multimeltas into heavy flamers which seemed quite a plausable idea. Imperial guard heavy flamers tend to use an extra backpack for fuel.

 

Incinerators look like small Firestorm cannons, and could be easily modeled from current edition meltaguns or 4th Ed flamers if you can find them.

 

 

Question 2: As stated above psycannons are based on bolt weapons, I am tempted on attempting to model a lower slung psycannon more similar in style to the current heavy bolter however would this seem silly technology wise? as the few images of psycannons make them out to be lighter, smaller and easier to hold thus would this way of carrying them would seem out of place.

 

Actually, your best bet is to model them from plasma cannons, as the two are closer to each other than psycannons are to bolters.

 

 

 

 

Question 3: Are there no squad markings for Grey knights / other chamber militants of the inquisition?

 

Grey knights- Left shoulderpad chapter marking, right for personal heraldry? if they have a "shield" they show their heraldry there?

 

Common Astartes Chapers use the left shoulderpad commonly for chapter markings, right shoulderpad squad depiction (troops / fast attack etc).

 

Sisters of Battle - left shoulderpad inquisition markings?, right for fleur de lays (or however its spelt)

 

Deathwatch - Left shoulderpad for inquisition DW marking, right for original chapter they were from marking.

 

Per the fluff, squads wear the shoulder heraldry of their Justicar, yet every picture in the codex shows each squad member with their own personal heraldry. Which means you can just do your own thing and it will be fine.

 

 

Question 4: Do only Terminators have those ornate shoulder pads / do they represent anything special? The PAGK shoulderpads seem to vary according to the artist and the models seem to have very standard / plain shoulderpads (maybe due to modelling detail constraints?)

 

Page 9 of the DH codex looks like it has a picture of the PAGK's having the more ornate ones, just curious if there is any reason why they dont as I might convert some to have it using Death Watch bits.

 

While the PAGK right pauldron does not have all the scroll work, it could be resplendent in gold if you want, as it is modeled with the Grey Knight icon (i.e., Sword and Book).

 

 

Question 5: Nemesis force weapons

-As far as I can see there is no restriction on what the "weapon" may be though the halberd / swords seem the more common varients. Ben Counters GK novels imply that the hammer varient is rare and most other ones are specially crafted by the chapters artificers.

-I presume powerfists are still classed as weapons thus would it be possible for a NFW in a "powerfist" shape or are we looking at "weapons" in the more conventional shape / form?

 

You are correct, and that would look fabulous!

 

 

Question 6: Dreadnoughts

-Is there any documentation in regards to how GK dreadnoughts look?

-I presume they would all be more like the venerable / ironclad in looks. Also dreadnought close combat weapons, the NFW that forgeworld does is an interesting idea, but wouldnt it reduce a dreadnoughts ability to pickup / hold objects?

-Like above, couldnt the powerfist / claw shaped DCCW still have the special runes / mechanics inbuilt into it to be as potent vs daemons like other NFW?

 

GK have so few Dreadnoughts that I personally would model them all as venerable, whether or not the status would apply.

 

 

Last question:

Is it generally more accepted that GK dreadnoughts are much rarer things than SM ones? -If so why? I imagine its due to the nature of their work or could it just be another inconsistency in the fluff?

 

To quote the SM codex: "Many an assault commences with a wave of dreadnoughts to first drive a wedge through the enemys defences." this really throws up a different idea to "It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a dreadnought".

 

Per the fluff, GK fear being entombed in a Dreadnought chassis, and given the foes they tend to go against, I would tend to agree that any wound that can take a GK out of a fight would most likely be mortal, indeed!

 

 

Lastly thanks for any comments or help people have on these questions!

 

No problem!

 

SJ

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Question 5: Nemesis force weapons

-As far as I can see there is no restriction on what the "weapon" may be though the halberd / swords seem the more common varients. Ben Counters GK novels imply that the hammer varient is rare and most other ones are specially crafted by the chapters artificers.

-I presume powerfists are still classed as weapons thus would it be possible for a NFW in a "powerfist" shape or are we looking at "weapons" in the more conventional shape / form?

 

To save argument I wouldn't model NFWs as anything that already exists in the army. For example, power fists and thunder hammers exist in the codes, but can't be taken by anyone below Terminators. If you want to model an NFW as a hammer or a power fist, you will have to explain to your opponent before the game that they are not thunder hammers/power fists, but NFWs. If you are happy to do that, model away. :P

 

Question 6: Dreadnoughts

-Is there any documentation in regards to how GK dreadnoughts look?

 

I'd think that since they are so rare, they would be unique - you wouldn't find two that look the same, not least because the Dreadnoughts are likely to have the personal heraldry of the pilot on the sarcophagus.

 

Last question:

Is it generally more accepted that GK dreadnoughts are much rarer things than SM ones? -If so why? I imagine its due to the nature of their work or could it just be another inconsistency in the fluff?

 

To quote the SM codex: "Many an assault commences with a wave of dreadnoughts to first drive a wedge through the enemys defences." this really throws up a different idea to "It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a dreadnought".

 

Grey Knights hope the be interned in the tombs below Titan when they die, a Grey Knight must give personal consent before being put in a Dreadnought.

 

It's probably not a good idea to look at Grey Knights from the perspective of Codex Chapters. In terms of codex divergence they are up there with the Space Wolves and Black Templars.

[Secondwind]

First off thanks again for the replys so far:

 

Jefferson the "Psycannon are based on bolt weapons, replacing the bolt warheads with ritually inscribed silver tips, psychically charged and backed by an explosive isotope" is a direct quote from the "Psycannon" entry in the DH codex on page 18 of the codex.

 

The entry below it is for psycannon bolts and states "The bolt weapon carried by the daemonhunter has a magazine of psychically impregnated bolts".

 

This seems to make them sound like they are still "bolt" based weapons and similar to heavy bolters. "The psycannon's weight is offset by suspensors to permit it to be fired on the move." Is very like the old deathwatch kill team heavy bolter wargear text.

 

 

In regards to the ammo hopper on a PAGK's model, all I see is a direct connector from the wrist mounted stormbolter to ammo belt then to where it directly connects to the lower part of the backarmour / backpack connector. No modelling of where they hold this ammo which is then fed into the belt, thus the question is it just that the marines have more advanced backpacks thus have space to contain extra ammo there? or is it lazyness on GW to avoid producing extra backpacks -ala pedro kantor's?

 

Upon closer inspection of the incinerator model, it seems to have 2x fuel drums attached below the weapon and one either side of his waist with fuel cables attached from both his weapon and backpack to these intermediate containers on the waist. Anyone have a clue what their purpose is? -Holding more fuel or is it more a primer/mixer for the fuel compound?

 

 

 

Grand Master Tyrak - In regards to dreadnoughts, the marines are not dead to be placed in a dreadnought from all sources I have read. They have to be mortally wounded and still willing to fight and for some chapters counted as "heros" (though interpretation of hero is difficult in regards to space marines). Thus while they may not field many of them to start attacks like codex chapters do, it did give an idication that there maybe more than implied. As stated before though, maybe grey knights and the job they do tends to give them few curcumstances where mortally wounded marines appear.

 

On another note: why do grey knights fear / dislike the idea of being interned into a dreadnought? The codex marines tend to honour, revere and treat the dreadnoughts like great warriors. Chapter masters and trainee space marines alike seek the wisdom of an ancient wise dreadnought?

-Yes, Grey knights are not codex by anymeans but its a good basis to be able to find out more about the lore and why certain divergences are what they are. Maybe they fear not being human? or count it as a possible failure in battle?

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Please dont consider my thoughts as a personal attack or nit-picking on your helpful feedback, just trying to get to the core of my (probably badly written) questions. I really do appreciate any help people put in ! ^^

[Grand Master Tyrak]

On another note: why do grey knights fear / dislike the idea of being interned into a dreadnought? The codex marines tend to honour, revere and treat the dreadnoughts like great warriors. Chapter masters and trainee space marines alike seek the wisdom of an ancient wise dreadnought?

 

No idea. I assume that their preference for internment in the Titan catacombs is both a tradition and a result of the enemies they fight. After all, Codex Marines often have second chances. With Daemonic Incursions, if they fail, then that's it - no more second chances, a good portion of the Imperium is going to disappear into the warp/realspace overlap. I assume that for a lifetime of loyal service, all a Grey Knight can wish for is a chance to die knowing their duty is done. If a Grey Knight can be spared for death, then he has done his duty well.

[Inquisitor =D=]

Grand Master Tyrak - In regards to dreadnoughts, the marines are not dead to be placed in a dreadnought from all sources I have read. They have to be mortally wounded and still willing to fight and for some chapters counted as "heros" (though interpretation of hero is difficult in regards to space marines). Thus while they may not field many of them to start attacks like codex chapters do, it did give an idication that there maybe more than implied. As stated before though, maybe grey knights and the job they do tends to give them few curcumstances where mortally wounded marines appear.

 

On another note: why do grey knights fear / dislike the idea of being interned into a dreadnought? The codex marines tend to honour, revere and treat the dreadnoughts like great warriors. Chapter masters and trainee space marines alike seek the wisdom of an ancient wise dreadnought?

-Yes, Grey knights are not codex by anymeans but its a good basis to be able to find out more about the lore and why certain divergences are what they are. Maybe they fear not being human? or count it as a possible failure in battle?

 

Its as you said. In the circumstances these boys fight there is no second chance and its rare that you'd be able to recover the bodies. So being entombed on Titan means they succeeded and the Gk can rest well knowing his duty is done.

 

As for the dreadnought thing, the reason I believe Gk's dislike it is the idea that they must accept that their "humanity" has failed and instead they must adopt the machine. Think about it, your whole life your told that you are the pinnacle of human-kind and there are none better, none so pure, as you. And then your severely injured in one of your many battles and told that your perfect form isn't any good now, now you must be a machine. Its like telling a jogger his legs aren't good enough so were gonna replace them with some wheels, he'll tell you off. I know I like my legs. :)

 

This has been early morning thoughts from,

=]D[=

[RolandTHTG]

On another note: why do grey knights fear / dislike the idea of being interned into a dreadnought? The codex marines tend to honour, revere and treat the dreadnoughts like great warriors. Chapter masters and trainee space marines alike seek the wisdom of an ancient wise dreadnought?

 

No idea. I assume that their preference for internment in the Titan catacombs is both a tradition and a result of the enemies they fight. After all, Codex Marines often have second chances. With Daemonic Incursions, if they fail, then that's it - no more second chances, a good portion of the Imperium is going to disappear into the warp/realspace overlap. I assume that for a lifetime of loyal service, all a Grey Knight can wish for is a chance to die knowing their duty is done. If a Grey Knight can be spared for death, then he has done his duty well.

 

Actually, going by fluff, the White Scars also have a similar aversion to Dreadnoughts, to the point of not taking any because it is an artificial imprisonment of the marine. So this view of dreads is not unknown. I agree with the stated reasoning for the grey knights.

[jeffersonian000]

First off thanks again for the replys so far:

 

Jefferson the "Psycannon are based on bolt weapons, replacing the bolt warheads with ritually inscribed silver tips, psychically charged and backed by an explosive isotope" is a direct quote from the "Psycannon" entry in the DH codex on page 18 of the codex.

 

The entry below it is for psycannon bolts and states "The bolt weapon carried by the daemonhunter has a magazine of psychically impregnated bolts".

 

This seems to make them sound like they are still "bolt" based weapons and similar to heavy bolters. "The psycannon's weight is offset by suspensors to permit it to be fired on the move." Is very like the old deathwatch kill team heavy bolter wargear text.

 

 

I was discussing the model, not the fluff. Per the model, there are no ammo bins nor magazines, just wires, cables, and conduits. As an Epic 40k player from back in the days of the Space Marine box set which pre-dated the development of the Grey Knights, an arm-mount psycannon fired psychic bolts of energy that ignored armour and shielding, and were powered by the minds of dozens of psykers housed under a domed Sanctum Santorum which replaced both of a Warlord titan’s carapace mount weapons. The models for both the PAGK and the GKT with psycannon support this origin, regardless of 3rd Ed fluff written in the current Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codices. I can only assume that the GW author either did not know the previously published workings of a psycannon when the entries where written, or the mechanics were retcon’d so that the Psycannon Bolt wargear could be introduced. Either way, it does not negate the fact that no ammo containment is displayed on the model because no ammo was ever intended to be used when the model were first designed.

 

Personally, I still envision the psycannon as working in the same way it did 2nd Ed as each Grey Knight is a powerful psykers (even if their stat line does not show it), with the Psycannon Bolt wargear working much like a Caster Shell from the anime Outlaw Star, which was a physical ammunition that released a massive blast of energy when fired.

 

 

 

In regards to the ammo hopper on a PAGK's model, all I see is a direct connector from the wrist mounted stormbolter to ammo belt then to where it directly connects to the lower part of the backarmour / backpack connector. No modelling of where they hold this ammo which is then fed into the belt, thus the question is it just that the marines have more advanced backpacks thus have space to contain extra ammo there? or is it lazyness on GW to avoid producing extra backpacks -ala pedro kantor's?

 

 

Well, the belt would hold more ammo that just a simple weapon-mounted magazine, even if no apparent ammo bin is connected to the other end. It would just make swapping ammo a bit more complex. If a standard boltgun magazine holds 30 rounds, and a stormbolter’s box magazine holds 50-100 rounds (depending on the box size), then one could assume that a belt fed stormbolter would most likely hold 120+ rounds of bolter ammunition in the same physical space as seen modeled on a GK’s powered armour. Why GKT’s are shown with less ammo than their smaller PAGK brethren is a mystery.

 

 

 

Upon closer inspection of the incinerator model, it seems to have 2x fuel drums attached below the weapon and one either side of his waist with fuel cables attached from both his weapon and backpack to these intermediate containers on the waist. Anyone have a clue what their purpose is? -Holding more fuel or is it more a primer/mixer for the fuel compound?

 

 

An Incinerator is a heavy flamer spewing a bit more than just the standard mix of promethium passed over an igniter. Maybe there is another liquid fuel in the mix? Back in the day, meltas use to be blast/template weapons, with a multi-melta being able to fire in two modes which included being fired as a heavy flamer using a heavy flamer template and stat-line. I can see an incinerator acting more like an old style melta in that it spews forth a stream of oil-based fuel and an oxidizer passed an electrical igniter; once ignited, the mixture will burn until no fuel/combustible material is left and will stick to anything covered until it burns out (hence the no invulnerable save special rule).

 

 

 

P.S. Please dont consider my thoughts as a personal attack or nit-picking on your helpful feedback, just trying to get to the core of my (probably badly written) questions. I really do appreciate any help people put in ! ^^

 

 

I was under the impression that you wanted the models explained so that you could scratch-build GK’s from plastic Marine sprues, based on your original post. The current models do not fit the current fluff. The models available for Grey Knights were designed during 2nd Edition 40k, and still reflect the mechanics from that edition rather than the 3rd Ed fluff that was written afterward, let alone the 5th Ed version of how things currently work in the 40k universe. This is something people lose track of as each new edition comes out and rules change as to who can have which gear and how specific gear should work/be modeled.

 

SJ

[archonbrujah]

Hopefully not too OT, but I thought that the "original" psy cannon was from Slaves to Darkness and was a modified bolt pistol (i.e. physical ammo), Of course back then, GK's had assault squads and devastators!

 

Don't have it handy, but it's been ages.

 

Archonbrujah

[Kaled100]

Hopefully not too OT, but I thought that the "original" psy cannon was from Slaves to Darkness and was a modified bolt pistol (i.e. physical ammo), Of course back then, GK's had assault squads and devastators!

You're right, and I'm pretty sure the same was true in 2nd Ed as well. The titan weapon may well have been different, but psycannons have always been an adaptation of bolt technology firing bolts impregnated with negative warp energy (or some such fluff).

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Hehe, in the old days Psycannon bolts were the created from basically distilling Sensei, who were the Emperor's null children.