Vanguard

[solid snake drive]

Hi, I just bought a Vanguard Vet squad and I was wondering what you think of the unit in general. Is it a must have or a bystanding supporter? What's the most cost effective way of gearing them up for battle, (besides not taking the jump packs cause I already bought them B) ).

[Mycroft Holmes]

It's a good assault unit as long as:

you don't give them jump packs (way too costly)

you don't go crazy with special weapons (too costly)

 

Vangaurd are excellent assault marines, coming standard with 2 attacks+ 2nd weapon + charge (hopefully) and a power weapon for about 20pts a piece. Take 6-8 of them, give one, maybe 2, a power weapon and leave the rest standard for an excellent assault unit.

 

If you find that you're giving them all amazing power weapons, look back at the Elite section and take 5 Assault Terminators for 200pts. It's by far the most pt effient way to get excellent power weapons.

 

Mycroft

[greymeister]

I like them, the sergeant getting a power weapon by default is a nice touch. Plus the fact that they are all veterans with 2 attacks AND have 2 weapons make them a very nice way to get mass attacks in assault. I would consider them in lists where you aren't going to take a Land Raider or if you want more bodies than you would get with Terminators. The cost is high and unlike TH/SS terminators they will not survive against elite attacks coming back. They're also a fast attack choice so depending on situations where you may not have elite slots left they are another option.

[Krimson]

I haven''t actaully used them yet, they are currently taunting me in pieces on my work table, but I do intend to give a fair shake. Honestly, yes the jump packs do make them costly, but I see little to no point in taking them otherwise. Heroic intervention can be a game saver, ecspecially when there are drop pods with locator beacons on the table. If you place them withen 6" of a pod, after placeing the others in a circle around the first, you may even find yourself able to assualt someone a bit farther than 6" from the pod!!

 

That said, they are expensive, and the squad I am building will have a couple power weapons, one power fist, a couple plasma pistols, three storm shields. The main thing about them is to know when to field them. I usually have a squad of termies, but against orks for instance I would most likely rather have the vangaurd, able to get around the table faster.

 

In short, they are a good unit, and when used properly could concievably take out that group of 30 boyz. (The unit I'm making would have 36 attacks on the charge if I field the whole unit)

[travh20]

locator beacon helps jump pack deepstikers? Thought it only helped teleporting units?

[Krimson]

The ones that you can take for scout bikes or drop pods will work for any deepstriking unit. The ones you take for scouts, and I think one or two hqs, can only be used by teleporters.

[Olesh]

Because you mentioned the 30 boys specifically...

 

36 attacks on the charge = 18 hits.

 

18 hits at S4 = 9 wounds.

 

Ork save of 6+, mixed in with power weapons, means you're probably getting 8 dead, maybe 7. The orks, in return, get 66 attacks back, hitting with half and wounding with 1/3, bringing it to 11 wounds, of which you'll make 2/3 of your saves, so probably 4 dead. (3 2/3)

 

They've lost combat by 5 wounds, but are fearless, and so lose another 4-5. They've lost a bit over a third of their troops, but so have you, and now you're locked into combat without the benefits of being on the charge. If they have a nob with a power klaw, throw another dead marine in there and subtract one dead ork.

 

Now, I didn't factor in the shooting, because 10 bolt pistol shots only = 3 dead orks. 3 orks = 9 attacks = 4.5 hits = 1.5 wounds = 0.5 dead marines.

 

Let's assume worst case scenario for the orks: no nob, and shot at first, so those 30 orks are down to 19 or 20 befor ethey can attack back. That's still 60 attacks back, aka 10 wounds, or 3 1/3 dead marines. On subsequent assaults, you've lost at least 16 attacks out of your 36, dropping you down to 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, and 4 orks dead. The orks retaliate again, with 48 attacks, or 2 2/3 more marines dead, and then lose another ork or two for losing combat.

 

After one full turn (two assaults), both the orks and the vanguard are at half strength, but there's no more bolt pistol shooting to thin the ranks or bonus +1A on the charge for the vanguards.

 

Now, let's look at the cost for basic vanguards: 225 points for a basic squad of 10, while boys are 180 points for a squad of 30. With jump packs, tack another 100 points to the vanguards. I didn't know exactly how you kitted out your squad, but I assumed 2 power weapons (plus the one on the sergeant), one power fist, two plasma pistols, and 3 storm shields). The total difference from the above basic vanguards, on average, is 2 dead orks. Points-wise, you're at a serious loss here. A significant points investment on your part (20% of your army at 2000 points) has managed to break even in the short term (moving for a long term loss against the orks) against a squad that costs 40% of what yours does.

 

In short, assaulting that mob of 30 orks? Mug's game. Don't assault them until you've reduced their numbers first through shooting, and absolutely do not let them assault you first. If you try and take on a full squad of boys fresh, you're doomed. Sheer volume of dice and expendable bodies will win the day, or as Stalin said, "Quantity has its own quality." Even taking out 10 boys in shooting (one full tactical squad on rapid fire plus the vanguards with bolt pistols will do this easily) before you assault dramatically adjusts the wounds you take and your odds of winning the assault in the long term. In fact, if you rapid fire with a different squad, shoot bolt pistols, and THEN assault, your odds are very good of winning the assault entirely (through wounds or sweeping advance) on the ork turn, which is ideal.

[Krimson]

You are completly right about firing into the boyz with anouther squad first. should have had that in my origional post, but there you go.

 

For the record though, I really don't like mathhammering. Sure, you just worked out how the averages would go, but in my experiance with 10+ years of gaming over a couple dozen systems, the laws of averages rarely apply. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've rolled 10+ dice and not had it go either to the extreme in one way or the other. In the assualt mentioned, nine times out of ten I would either kill twice as many orks as your averages say, or half as many.

 

That being said, in my army any close combat units arn't really intended for survivability. I would use the to engage those orks so that a group of say sterngaurd can get into position to fire once the assault is done. Where as if I used regular assualt marines or termies or etc, the orks would steamroll over them faster than you could say lickity-split.

 

Plus, please note that marines are not required to stay in the fight if things turn. With chapter tactics I can chose to "fail" the morale check if I lose the assault, fall back 3d6, and pummel them with more ranged fire.

[Mal]

From everything i've gathered (and the fact that im working on a vanguard unit myself) they are absolutly nasty in mopping up enemy forces or aiding other units already engaged.... but as a stand alone unit, they lack staying power to do well.

 

For example, your gun line wrecks a unit of boyz, but doesn't kill them off, your vanguard can jump in and likely kill enough to make them break or prevent serious damage being returned... or if a unit of termis gets tied down in a long drawn out combat, the vanguard can jump in and lend a bit of punch to free the units up faster...

 

The big advantage to the vanguard comes with the sheer number of attacks they can kick out, I know the jump packs make them expensive... but honestly... its not worth taking them without it, if your going to limit yourself to foot movement, go with terminators.

[tastytaste]

If you are using vanguard vs boyz squad then the rest of your army is not doing its job. Elite Assualt units should be taking out other elite units. Even if the boyz did not kill off your Vanguard they would be effectively neutered for the rest of the game. Being that Vaguard can usually pick their own fights I find them a very effective unit when kept cheap.

[solid snake drive]

I haven''t actaully used them yet, they are currently taunting me in pieces on my work table, but I do intend to give a fair shake. Honestly, yes the jump packs do make them costly, but I see little to no point in taking them otherwise. Heroic intervention can be a game saver, ecspecially when there are drop pods with locator beacons on the table. If you place them withen 6" of a pod, after placeing the others in a circle around the first, you may even find yourself able to assualt someone a bit farther than 6" from the pod!!

 

That is precisely how I am going to field them. Have a tac squad with a drop pod and locator beacon first turn due to the Drop Pod Assault rule. Pod them in behind some good cover (I usually face tau) and next turn deep strike the vanguard with Shrike attached. But, then again, Shrike gives fleet and flank march if deep strike infiltrate units stay in reserve so I might outflank the enemy with the Vanguard and deep strike my Assault terminators near the drop pod instead.

 

And with the whole army having fleet, muahahahaha. I'll be in assault range at least by turn 2.