Saxxon the Dragoon Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 okay, pretty much we are doing a level system to see how squads and such can be upgraded, and we are doing a campaign. under the circumstances i for the most part right now only have about 20-30 points to upgrade my squads and HQ choices and such with per squad and all (not including the addition of more guys in a squad) . what i really need help with is taking out an ork army (which is also under the same rules and mostly has squads level 2 and giving him 20-30 for upgrades). since i am not really able to get big hitting weapons, or effective upgrades to make a big punch (i am pretty much forced to use heavy bolters and rely on my whirlwind to lay down some fire) and they have been doing decent, but i am always getting overrun and destroyed by him. out of 4 battles so far, i have only won one of them, and that was just barely. i am losing my mind about this and almost tempted to just say F*CK IT and give up my marines and just stick with BB and GK's as my armies. i have been making all kinds of switches and changes trying out different tactics, but his deff coptas (he runs 6, 2 squads of 3) keep destroying all my vehicles except my whirlwind by turn 1 or 2 with all his twin linked missiles, and he has a battle wagon and a trukk that he has one that is loaded up with a full squad of nobz and a pain boy, and they just keep decimating my because i cant drop them with range weapons because he always saves the wounds thank to the painboy and i dont have anything that can match them in close combat. i am getting completely torn up in this campaign because i cant upgrade and he is getting his boyz and nobs on me on the first turn or subsequent turn, and with the 5th edition rules completely destroying my army i cant give all my marines bolters and chainswords or field 6 dreads or give my sergeants termy armor. and i cant equip my guys with anything good with the point caps i have right now. so can someone give me some tactics or ideas to help me pull thru this before this campaign is a complete flop for me and for the sake of my marines (i have been throwing them across the room in this last battle, along with any dice that have been fighting/rolling incredibly bad). so far the only effective things i have found that are doing decent are my whirlwind, my landspeeders when they dont get blown apart by deffcaptas, and my bike squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blood_raven_240 Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Well, first of all, some punctuation would help to break up your post :rolleyes: What Points Level are you playing at? 1,000? 1,500? Can we see your full Army List? With this information, I'd be able to reccomend some upgrades :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saxxon the Dragoon Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 pretty much all battles have been between 1k and 1.5k battles, and usually with a decent amount of terrain to give the orks plenty of cover. and sorry if i dont give a damn about punctuation, i am just a little pissed off at how poorly my army is doing. here are a few lists of mine: 1.5k list, for the battle we just fought tonight. mission-seize ground, pitched battle deployment, ork player went first, seize initiative failed. lost with only 1 objective controlled, ork player had 2 objectives under control, one of those being a nob squad. (1 nob squad counts as a troop choice w/ warboss) HQ- shrike 195 troop- 10 man tac squad with H.bolter and flamer 170 troop- 10 man tac squad with H.bolter and flamer 170 troop- 6 scouts, 5 w/ sniper rifles, 1 ML 98 fast attack- 6 bikers and 1 attack bike 205 fast attack- 3 land speeders, all H.bolters, one tornado pattern with another H.bolter -160 elite- venerable dread w/assault cannon and CCW and storm bolter 175 heavy- pred w/ sponson H.bolters and HK missile - 95(this got destroyed int he first turn)[his wartrukk was able to take 40pts of upgrades so i was allowed 40pts to upgrade my pred] heavy- dev squad w/ 2 H.bolters and 1 ML 135 (heavy weapon teams can only take most basic weps until higher level) heavy- whirlwind w/ HK missile 95 total- 1498 another battle with 1k cap, mission was annihilation. deployment was pitched battle, i went first. lostt this battle. HQ- librarian w/storm bolter 103 troop- 10 tac marines w/ plasma gun 180 troop- 10 tac marines w/ H.bolter and melta gun 175 elite- ironclad dread 135 heavy- pred w/S.bolter 70 heavy- 10 dev squad, 2x H.bolters, 1 plasma cannon (got broken into combat squad) 225 fast attack- assault marines, sgt had combat shield combat shield and melta bombs 110 total- 998 another battle, 500 pts, capture and control, pitched battle deployment. ork player went first, failed seize initiative roll. lost this battle. HQ- chaplain w/ S.bolter 103 troop- 6 man tac squad w/ razerback that had S.bolter 156 troop- 6 man tac squad 106 elite- ironclad dread 135 total- 500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine.Varrius Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 What was your opponents list? That might help. The dreadnought should counter attack the nob's. And missile launchers would be better in the tac squads, their kraks should bust the ork tanks allowing other heavy weapons to soften up the troops before the dread charges in to finish them off if needed. Basically missile launchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blood_raven_240 Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 another battle, 500 pts, capture and control, pitched battle deployment. ork player went first, failed seize initiative roll. lost this battle.HQ- chaplain w/ S.bolter 103 troop- 6 man tac squad w/ razerback that had S.bolter 156 troop- 6 man tac squad 106 elite- ironclad dread 135 total- 500 Hq - Chaplain with Bolt Pistol, 100 Troops - Tactical Squad (8), 138 Troops - Tactical Squad (6), 106 Dedicated Transport - Razorback with Storm Bolter, 50 Elites - Dreadnought, 105 By losing the Ironclad for a Standard Dreadnought, and losing the Storm Bolter on the Chaplain, you free up 33 Points, allowing you to snag two extra Space Marines for the Tactical Squad. This should be a slightly better list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saxxon the Dragoon Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 What was your opponents list? That might help. The dreadnought should counter attack the nob's. And missile launchers would be better in the tac squads, their kraks should bust the ork tanks allowing other heavy weapons to soften up the troops before the dread charges in to finish them off if needed. Basically missile launchers. for the most part, the other player is always taking 6 deff coptas, a squad of nobz usually a full 10 with a painboy, and lots and lots and LOTS of boys. in the last fight we just did he took a wartrukk and a battle wagon, but every other battle its pretty much just a massive wave of green thats been tearing me appart. and i cant take very much missile launchers, without taking a full tac squad (which makes no sense to me) and he is almost always in some kind of terrain cover making missiles almost worthless. when he is in open terrain i am tearing him up, but his nobz are completely decimating me, and his deff coptas are just moving all over the field and tank hunting me. i cant destroy them fast enough or take them out effectively because my rolls suck, horribly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine.Varrius Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Weighted dice? Use the predator to destroy the deff coptors, and concentrate your firepower. Deploy so you can not easily be destroyed at once, deploy apart but each section covering the other. eg devastators and predator, tac squads and dreadnought. You could use shrike as a mobile counter assault unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine.Varrius Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Oh yeah concentrate your firepower, shoot everything at once at the same target , to remove it. Also instead of shrike take a basic captain? and loose some of your other upgrades, eg hunter killers melta bombs, combat shields, you could end up with more points to spend on other things. Power weapons maybe in the squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saxxon the Dragoon Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 Weighted dice? Use the predator to destroy the deff coptors, and concentrate your firepower. Deploy so you can not easily be destroyed at once, deploy apart but each section covering the other. eg devastators and predator, tac squads and dreadnought. You could use shrike as a mobile counter assault unit. ya, with my pred, i have pretty much only been able to take the main gun and thats it, and i cant roll to hit ;). out of 3 battles that i have used my preds, i have only killed 3 basic orks. and with the way he deploys he has 2 squads of deff coptas on both sides of the board, so he can easily move his 24" and launch the equivalent of 6 missile shots (they are twin linked) at any vehicles i have. he can never seem to destroy my whirlwind, which pisses him off to no end. and shrike was a counter assault guy, but got killed by an ork dreadnaught, so he is gone for the campaign and i am stuck with a level 1 (only 10 pints of upgrades) for that little force that was left. and like i said, on turn 1, i had a full squad of 10 nobz and a painboy assault 1 tac squad on first turn, and he has i think like 30 orks in his wartrukk that assaulted my dev squad on turn one also. the battle was already lost before i could do anything. i could have sworn that in 5th edition ork army list, they were going to get rid of the speed ork lists because how freaken cheesy and BS they were. if i remember correctly werent speed ork lists banned from tournaments before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blood_raven_240 Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 IMO, Speed Orks is a viable tactic. Not sure if they were refused entry to Games Workshop Tournaments, I'd be surprised if they were. It sounds like a lot of the trouble that you're having is down to Deployment. A rethink of your Deployment Strategy might hold them off a little longer. Remember, lots of Rapid Fire Boltguns and Predator Autocannon and Heavy Bolters need to do some damage early to cripple the Ork Assault for the lenght of the battle, so it's all about where you're putting your Predator and Tactical Squads! Try putting your Dreadnought between your Devastators and the Orks, tie them up in Close Combat for a turn or two whilst the Devastator Squad blast all hell out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 under the rules you play and considering you get no special rules and your opponent get cheap ork stuff [for an ork army 20/30 pts on gear is a lot , for a sm is a fist for the sargent] you will lose each and every time . specially [if I understand it right] with each win your opponents army is getting better and better and yours doesnt. the sad truth about 5th ed dex , that in most cases player armies that worked[but werent top of the game] are dead . either you play a specific pedro/khan/lash/LR rush build etc or the army doesnt work . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blood_raven_240 Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 under the rules you play and considering you get no special rules and your opponent get cheap ork stuff [for an ork army 20/30 pts on gear is a lot , for a sm is a fist for the sargent] you will lose each and every time . specially [if I understand it right] with each win your opponents army is getting better and better and yours doesnt. the sad truth about 5th ed dex , that in most cases player armies that worked[but werent top of the game] are dead . either you play a specific pedro/khan/lash/LR rush build etc or the army doesnt work . Nah, I think that's a bit harsh ;) All it takes is some heavy thinking, a pinch of Math Hammer, and the favour of the Dice Gods, and a win is in the cards :P ++For more information about tackling Deffkoptas, there are already a couple of 'Anti-Dekkopta Tactics' Topics floating about. Search in My Assistant for 'Deffkoptas'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krave Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Out of curiosity, what are the campaign rules that you are using? It's easier to help if we know all the special restrictions you have to deal with. If he is advancing through cover one thing that comes to mind is a small unit of scout bikes+cluster mines. You could use that to flush him in the open and whirlwind him to death, or take a thundercannon for the cover-save ignoring shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saxxon the Dragoon Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 from what i konw, the only thing that can contend with a speed ork list would be a nid big bug list, and man i would love to see that battle before 5th ed killed that. that would be an epic show of body parts flying everywhere. but anyways; really, is there any way that i can pull this off? i am getting my ass handed to me and losing some important positions on the map and i cant do ;) about it. i am really thinking about getting my BB and GK into the fray to help put things in my favor a little bit. and the campaign rules we are using is this: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=165816 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Raziel Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Is there any reason why you can't take a Land Raider? Seems fair, if your opponent can take a Battlewagon. Let his Deffkoptas have fun trying to kill that. Also, a Vindicator would do a number on your opponent's unit of Nobz. Against the demolisher cannon, they'd get no armor saves, no FNP, and each wound will insta-kill a Nob. Ditto with Dread CCWs, but be careful of a Warboss with a power klaw. If you assault the Nobz with a Dread, make sure you single out the Warboss to attack first, because you want him dead before he can swing. Anyhow, one thing that jumped out at me is that you're trying to fight Orks with what are basically static Marine lists, and that's always going to be an uphill struggle. What you really need are some Rhinos. The big weakness of Ork hordes is that all those gargantuan units can easily get in each others way, especially if you have the mobility to ensure that this happens. Deploy in a way that obliges your opponent to stretch out his forces (or simply let him deploy first), then manuever to his weak flank and have all your forces gang up on his nearest units. Do it right, and it'll be difficult for your Ork opponent to bring the full weight of his forces to bear on your army at any given time. You might also oblige him to split his forces with some sacrificial units. Leave your Whirlwind hanging out on the extreme opposite end of the table from where you plan to make your stand, for instance. That'll oblige your opponent to send something after the Whirlwind. If you lose the Whirly, you're not out that much, but it does cause your opponent to have to pull some of his units out of his main effort to deal with it. If you have Scout Bikes, have them try and outflank and hit anything he leaves in his backfield. Take an Ironclad Dread with a pair of heavy flamers and stick it in a drop pod. Drop it behind his advance and go to town with the heavy flamers. All of these things will force your opponent to worry about other things besides cramming the entirety of his army down your army's throat. The more you can distract your opponent from his game plan, the more likely you are to pull off a win. Also, if I may offer an opinion on the matter, I think the campaign rules you came up with are doing a lot more to handicap your army than they are your opponent's army. Very few Ork units actually need much in the way of upgrades in order to be effective. Simply swamping the other guy with a deluge of Ork Boyz works fine most of the time. Most Imperial armies, on the other hand, really need the upgrades they can be given in order to fight armies like that. Case in point: your Predator - all but useless without the sponson weapons. So, you might want to tweak the campaign rules. Do away with the limits on upgrades, and instead institute some kind of battle honors system. The 4th edition rulebook has some tables for that kind of thing that you could adapt. Finally, I have to ask: hunter killer missile on a Whirlwind? What's the point of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krave Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I would second all of GMR's recommendations, especially the vindicator. Hordes hate ordanance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 More vehicles. Orks can't kill vehicles reliably, Deff Koptas will only do so much (max unit size is 5 btw). Rhinos in every unit is a good start. Without Lootas he won't be able to kill off your vehicles, so with 2 Dreads, Rhinos, 2 Preds and a Whirly you pour fire into his horde. Hit the fast stuff first (Trukks are soft, BWs have poor side and rear armor) and hop in the your vehicles to weather the Green Tide. Tank shocking will help you bunch his hordes up to get Flamer'd or Whirlwind'd. High RoF, Templates, vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I'd suggest a heavier vehicle, like a Land Raider or a variant. Those rokkits shouldn't hurt it much. Have you ever thought about counter-charging? Have Shrike in a heavy assualt unit at the beginning, just as the orks get close, use that nice Fleet rule twinned with an assualt squad, you could effectivly have a unit that moves 24" in one turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinshanks Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Against this particular ork army i suggest the following units. Just remember that although they will be tailored to defeat this ork army they will suck hard against anything else :( An unpopular choice it maybe but in this case, since your opponent is lacking in longranged weapons i suggest taking the thunderfire cannon. The airburst will ignore an orks armour and cover save (in case of kustom force field) and is hvy4 blast. Or us the subterrainean blast to force the closest ork unit to move as though in difficult terrain, slowing down them and the orks behind them giving you an extra turn of shooting. Razorbacks with hvy bolters over rhinos. 5 men with hvy bolter stay on your home objectives and when the time is right the other 5 with flamer hop in and drive to another objective and flame it to clear. Don't take a vindicator! Odd as it sounds :D take whirlwinds instead. Both are ordinance, both ignore an orks armour save but the vindi is only 24" range. This is the range where ork anti tank begins. At 24" rokkits, zzap guns, killkannons can hit, any closer and you'll get powerklawed. whirlwinds can sit back miles from harm. Vindis are str10 and AP2 but that doesn't mean much being as most of his army is t4 6+ save. Plus they're cheaper and ignore cover saves. For an annoying, if not completely optimal choice in larger games, take an allied vindicaire assassin. Since he can target individual models of your choice kill the big mek and the boyz lose their cover save or the painboy and the nobz lose FNP. then start killing the PK nobs from each boys squad starting with the closest and laugh when they finally reach you in your razorback and are unable to hurt you :P Sounds like you're having bad luck with the deffkoptaz. They are a 1 shot unit really being as they have the same profile as orks only t5. use hvy bolters and they should die in pretty short order. although they may kill a tank b4 they go lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 That Thunderfire cannon is also capable of dealing nicely with Bikes. They don't realy like tremor. Also take Rhino's to create so called Bottlenecks. It makes their large numbers work against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Those heavy bolters should be turned on the koptas.... they kill on a 4+, so likely each one will kill a kopta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 You my friend need a good dose of armour and shed loads of ranged firepower. Put it this way your trying to fight an opponent who likes CC and thus you shouldn't focus on CC but firepower. As people have said, thunderfires will maul orks and I personally second that with gusto, I reduced 30 orks down to a meer 10 with one salvo. Whirlwinds are another choice that can hurt like hell, punish all ork units that want to get through with barrage upon barrage. Another option may be cluster mines, not only if he's conga lining make him slow, he will start taking loads of damage if you pile clusters onto terrain pieces. For the copters try also the scouts on bikes (if you take cluster mines) and meet those copters with bolters of scouts and maybe some krak grenade launchers. While I would push a land raider in the only one if you can is a crusader, while not my style that thing will mince meat orks and hold them up for long enough. Just say screw it to preds and all other units that are trying to counter stuff and just focus on firepower and make it a game of 'If you reach me, I'll be impressed'. Just gunline it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Kluft Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Having Just come off a massacre (in my favour) with orcs at 1700 points, Theres a few things id like to say. 1 . Always deploy second if you are able. If you deploy first he will know where your force is concentrated and will ram 1 million boys at you and you will have a tough time. 2. Deploy with 2 things in mind A) Refused flank formation, :blink: away from nobs. 3. You need Rhinos, need I say , not is good to have, but absolutely need. 4. A 10 man tac squad with sarge, special, and heavy does not throw out enough firepower at 24 inches to significantly dent an orc mob. At 12 inches with a flamer, a tac squad will wreck face. Combine 1-4 and the tactic is this. Deploy rhino mounted squads, in a refused flank formation, motor up the side under cover of smoke until you get near, disembark then maul him with shooting. If you can, have another squad assault a just shot up orc mob, in order to tie up the counter charge. An assault squad is ideal for this. Have tank hunters beat up his Trucks (which hopefully are on the far side of the board, with nobs in them), and make them walk to you. By this time you should have local dominance on a half of the board, and the orc player will be forced to either a) throw units at you piece meal (since they have to walk down the length of the board), or :blink: wait to gather up a big enough force to launch a decisive attack (thus gaining you time for more shooting). Weaknesses of this strategy -Lootas can mess up your rhinos, and punk the whole thing from the start. Try to have the rhinos cover each other or behind LOS blocking terrain. (solution, drop pod Dread w/H.flamer) - Nobs on bikes are ridiculously fast, and will be on your new area right quick (solution, delay them. They are so tough there is no reasonable way to stop them with out to much expenditure , rhinos are good for this once they drop your guys off Orcs are very tough to beat, but your the Emperors finest. Go purge the green scum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 There are some Ork Tactics on the Tactica page so go search on there for Ork and you should do fine. A couple of the higlights are: Shoot his trukks and fast moving stuff - Cant be stressed enough as you dont want your shooting to be held up by an annoying and sometimes lethal charge. Concentrate fire on one mob at a time - Something even I dont do, even though I tell enough people to do it. If you can manage to keep your head and engage them one at a time you will do sufficient damage to kill or disable large enough squads. Bunch the orks up and force them to move slowly - Thunderfire can help with the second of these and using infiltrating scouts to force the Orks to peel away into difficult terrain can be a godsend. Dont let them charge you - Orks are lethal on the charge but not so great when being charged. I am not suggesting that you face down a mob of 30 with a combat squad (I did last night but that was a tactical manouver and they were dead anyway) but combine your charges to make him really pay. Trigger early Waaaghs - Getting an ork to waste his fleet move early in the game is a really useful thing to do. Drop podding mid range or Infiltrating will cause this to happen. Once it has gone you can engage them at 13" without fear. Drop Podding Dreads and outflanking troops to tie up his lootas - Those annoying boys can wreck most AV13 through sheer volume of shots, make sure that he doesnt sit there all game without any challenge. Last night I charged his Lootas with a MM and ML dread, killing 1 Ork a turn and forcing 1 further fearless kill to absolutely no response is funny as he didnt have the hard hitting troops to spare in order to kill me. There are a lot more things to think and read about however Orks arent impossible to kill unless your opponent takes a broken army and you do not. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelestialSon Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I hate to be the one to say it, but since you are taking Shrike, the more infantry, non vehicle units you take, the better. Consider this, all models with combat tactics get fleet instead. This means that bikes and assualt marines are at a premium against orks. Forget bolter rounds, charging a mob of orks is FAR more effective than thining them with small arms untill they charge you. An ork isn't as scary in CC without his precious furious charge. Even though it seems really counter to most of the posts here, or even common sense, more bodies and fleet will win over his choppas if you take the right units. TH/SS terminators are a borderline heart attack with fleet. Heck, even basic marines get 2 str 4 attacks on the charge, the trick is to agressively eliminate entire units at once. Even a small number of orks can quickly add up with 4 str 4 attacks each. My advice is maybe sub out the sniper scouts for more tacticals with flamer and missile launcher, a do no wrong combo. Swap the pred for another whirlwind if you have it. Finally, what's the weapon loadout on your speeders? I'd hide them until you're about to ram down the ork's throat with your troops. Then, have them spring out to lend some last minute firepower to thin out the mob you're going to charge. Raven Guard 101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.