Prathios Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I was looking at the Chaos Marine dex the other day and I ran across an interesting dilemma. If Lucius the eternal was to be slain by a GK of any sort, would he be able to take their body and use it as his fluff implies. It is said that anyone who strikes him down is possessed by his spirit and he gets to live again. But considering the amount of resistance to the warp and its influences GK have would Lucius be screwed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Basically I think it comes down to if Slaanesh wants him to return then he will and if Slaanesh ever tires of him then he won't. Don't try to think about it too much because it just gets silly very quickly. I've seen all sorts of questions about Lucius - such as what if a tree falls on him in the forest and there's nobody around to see, does he get to reincarnate? And if so, does he possess the tree? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Prathios Posted Today, 04:52 PM I was looking at the Chaos Marine dex the other day and I ran across an interesting dilemma. If Lucius the eternal was to be slain by a GK of any sort, would he be able to take their body and use it as his fluff implies. It is said that anyone who strikes him down is possessed by his spirit and he gets to live again. But considering the amount of resistance to the warp and its influences GK have would Lucius be screwed? Â I think that's what's called an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venerable Rhadamanthus Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I think that's what's called an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Â Â And physics dictates then when an "unstoppable force" meets an "immovable object"...the "immovable object" is destroyed. Just so ya know! <_< Â Of course if the "immovable object" is also indestructible...well...then we have problems! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Actually physics state that the immovable object is destroyed AND the unstoppable force is nullified. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 And physics dictates then when an "unstoppable force" meets an "immovable object"...the "immovable object" is destroyed. Just so ya know! :) Â Of course if the "immovable object" is also indestructible...well...then we have problems! Â I'm afraid it is. As an interpretation of fluff, it doesn't physically exist to be destroyed - both immovable object and unstoppable force are concepts. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 looks like the general concensus is that at the very least Lucius is out of luck. Even if the GK is destroyed, its more or less worth it to destroy a chosen of slaanesh. Honestly this came up when I made this point to my tau friend and he said that lucius would simply take over the GK's body and I made the point that a GK has never fallen to chaos since their inception. He said that it was simply Imperial propaganda... sigh. But he did make an interesting point, that if one of the chaos gods wanted to posses a GK and make them chaos they could... and so I wonder if they could why wouldn't they, or is it not that simple? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 looks like the general concensus is that at the very least Lucius is out of luck.I don't think he'd be out of luck necessarily - he's only 'resurrected' because that is the gift Slaanesh has given him. If he was killed in some way that meant he couldn't return in the body of whoever killed him, then either Slaanesh would either resurrect him in some other way or just let him die - the Chaos gods are fickle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
glayvin34 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Well, doesn't it say in the codex that the killer of Lucius won't become possessed by him unless they take some measure of satisfaction in his death? I guess that's how Slaanesh gets in and takes over. I also guess it's possible for a Grey Knight to not take satisfaction in killing Lucius, or at least the type of enthusiasm that would allow Slaanesh into the soul. Â But he did make an interesting point, that if one of the chaos gods wanted to posses a GK and make them chaos they could... and so I wonder if they could why wouldn't they, or is it not that simple? Â I always figured that Grey Knights couldn't be possessed because there's just nothing for the Chaos Gods to corrupt, and they need a least one iota of negative emotion to influence someone. The GK's presence in the warp has absolutely no emotion beyond devotion to the Emperor, and given that Chaos gods are masters of a given negative emotional state, they can't possess something that lacks that state. Â Has anyone read Hammer of Daemons? Poor Justicar Alaric goes toe-to-toe with a powerful daemon while his psychic powers are suppressed and still manages to resist possession (although the struggle leaves him a little worse for the wear). It seemed he couldn't be possessed because he can't be corrupted- no degree of torture will turn a GK from the Emperor's light and make him think negative and/or corruptible thoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Just had a thought - his 4th ed Chaos Codex entry said that if whoever defeated him "took so much as a shred of pride in their victory", then Lucius would be resurrected via them. Is this still true in his 5th ed fluff, and if so, do your think a GK would take pride in that victory. I think not - they're likely to know what would happen. Â EDIT - Damn, beaten to it. :P Â Has anyone read Hammer of Daemons? Poor Justicar Alaric goes toe-to-toe with a powerful daemon while his psychic powers are suppressed and still manages to resist possession (although the struggle leaves him a little worse for the wear). Â Was that about Grey Knights? Damn, I must have missed that when I last read it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
glayvin34 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Was that about Grey Knights? Damn, I must have missed that when I last read it. Â Well, it's about ONE Grey Knight. But he doesn't have his armor. Or Storm Bolter. Or Force Weapon. Or his psychic powers for that matter. For pretty much the whole book. And he unwittingly serves the forces of Chaos the whole time, especially at the end. So it's really only about Grey Knights in the context of not having anything to do with what the Grey Knights are doing at the time. I guess it's more about one Space Marine and the horrible, horrible time he spends on a daemon world. Â **SPOILER** EDIT: And he NEVER wears that awesome suit of terminator armor on the front of the book, which is quite a tease, IMHO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 Yeah I read hammer of daemons and I must say that the fact that Alaric (who is just a justicar, not even a captain or GM) was able to resist a daemon while his defenses are down is a pretty good precedent that Lucius would not be resurrected unless Slaanesh just made it happen from scratch, because that GK isn't going to lend him his body. I must admit though a lesser GK would likely have no chance at besting him in the first place, after reading the Horus Heresy books I think it would take a master of armed combat beyond even that of a company champion to best him. He is likely the single best swordsman in the galaxy. I wouldn't put it past a Captain or GM though, they do have various advantages against him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 Was that about Grey Knights? Damn, I must have missed that when I last read it. Â Well, it's about ONE Grey Knight. But he doesn't have his armor. Or Storm Bolter. Or Force Weapon. Or his psychic powers for that matter. For pretty much the whole book. And he unwittingly serves the forces of Chaos the whole time, especially at the end. So it's really only about Grey Knights in the context of not having anything to do with what the Grey Knights are doing at the time. I guess it's more about one Space Marine and the horrible, horrible time he spends on a daemon world. Â **SPOILER** EDIT: And he NEVER wears that awesome suit of terminator armor on the front of the book, which is quite a tease, IMHO. Â No he really doesn't, and I really hope the next book gets back to basics and focuses on perhaps Dvorn and his promotion to brother captain Sterns Terminator squad. Perhaps even bring Alaric up to that same squad as well. Because you could really get into some serious and stunning situations with that kind of force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I was looking at the Chaos Marine dex the other day and I ran across an interesting dilemma. If Lucius the eternal was to be slain by a GK of any sort, would he be able to take their body and use it as his fluff implies. It is said that anyone who strikes him down is possessed by his spirit and he gets to live again. But considering the amount of resistance to the warp and its influences GK have would Lucius be screwed? Â Â The world would explode, cats would fall on their backs and peace would reign in the middle east. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1961730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Iapetus Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Couple of things: Â The very presence of Grey Knights is painful to daemons, so my take would be if Lucius did take a Grey Knight into his soul, it would be something like walking around with an arrow sticking out of your back that you can't remove... Â And at the risk of hijacking this topic: Â Has anyone read Hammer of Daemons? Poor Justicar Alaric goes toe-to-toe with a powerful daemon while his psychic powers are suppressed and still manages to resist possession (although the struggle leaves him a little worse for the wear). It seemed he couldn't be possessed because he can't be corrupted- no degree of torture will turn a GK from the Emperor's light and make him think negative and/or corruptible thoughts. Â I thought HoD was another low point with regards to GK fluff from the BL. This part of the book as I read it is really poorly thought through from a GK fluff standpoint, but one of the best written parts. Alaric basically avoids becoming "possessed" by *choosing* to go insane. The construct is that he can't be possessed, but he can't be held accountable for his actions either. And he does great evil (albeit to evildoers, but the book does not share specific details), but is still used as a pawn for chaos. Â IMO - a true GK would consider himself culpable at some level and end his life. Not flaming - I liked a lot of the book, but at the end of the day there were some things that just didn't fall into my monodominant world view :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1962104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted April 21, 2009 Author Share Posted April 21, 2009 Couple of things:Â The very presence of Grey Knights is painful to daemons, so my take would be if Lucius did take a Grey Knight into his soul, it would be something like walking around with an arrow sticking out of your back that you can't remove... Â And at the risk of hijacking this topic: Â Has anyone read Hammer of Daemons? Poor Justicar Alaric goes toe-to-toe with a powerful daemon while his psychic powers are suppressed and still manages to resist possession (although the struggle leaves him a little worse for the wear). It seemed he couldn't be possessed because he can't be corrupted- no degree of torture will turn a GK from the Emperor's light and make him think negative and/or corruptible thoughts. Â I thought HoD was another low point with regards to GK fluff from the BL. This part of the book as I read it is really poorly thought through from a GK fluff standpoint, but one of the best written parts. Alaric basically avoids becoming "possessed" by *choosing* to go insane. The construct is that he can't be possessed, but he can't be held accountable for his actions either. And he does great evil (albeit to evildoers, but the book does not share specific details), but is still used as a pawn for chaos. Â IMO - a true GK would consider himself culpable at some level and end his life. Not flaming - I liked a lot of the book, but at the end of the day there were some things that just didn't fall into my monodominant world view :lol: Â I actually agree, I think it would have made a bit more sense for Alaric to go out with a bang to commit suicide by demon rather than what he did. Of course the justification was his desire for revenge (or more noble to see justice done) but honestly I couldn't quite buy some of it. I rather liked the book but it was more like a 6/10 for me. Â On another note the end of the book speaking of brother Dvorn joining Sterns terminator group, anyone else excited to see that played out??? Dvorn is the man, and he proves the best way to smite evil is to drop the hammer! As for hijacking its fine with me, I love tangents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1962175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
glayvin34 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I actually agree, I think it would have made a bit more sense for Alaric to go out with a bang to commit suicide by demon rather than what he did. Of course the justification was his desire for revenge (or more noble to see justice done) but honestly I couldn't quite buy some of it. I rather liked the book but it was more like a 6/10 for me. Â On another note the end of the book speaking of brother Dvorn joining Sterns terminator group, anyone else excited to see that played out??? Dvorn is the man, and he proves the best way to smite evil is to drop the hammer! As for hijacking its fine with me, I love tangents. Â I did think the end was a little odd, Alaric had no issues sacrificing everyone else's lives. I guess suicide is another concept foreign to the Grey Knight psyche. As a Grey Knight book I would have liked more about titan and/or the Ordo Malleus, but it was a good 40k novel. Â I'd love to see more Dvorn and Sterns' Termie group. I feel like there's not enough suits of terminator armor in the novels, it's probably harder to come up with conflicts for them, but they are such cool pieces of wargear- enough armor, dakka and power fields to allow one man to stand up to a tank. Â And Dvorn is cool because of the Force Hammer- it encourages creative conversions. Your GKs don't have to have Force Halberds, they can have hammers or quarterstaffs or whatever you like. Â Has anyone heard if Counter is going to go forward with another GK book? He just released the 5th Soul Drinkers book, which I have to pick up soon, and the guy pumps one out every few months, so maybe we'll see more GK within the year. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1962812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Always kinda botherd me-- what would happen if the person who killed Lucius died in the attempt? Like a suicide bomber? Â I mean, there'd be noone there whose body he could take over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1963913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Exactly, or shot themselves afterwards...  Or if he was killed by a Necron...  Or by Khârn, can't really see Khorne letting him be taken over... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1963927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 That's what I meant at the start when I said about not trying to think about it too much - it just makes your brain hurt. Â I still think it comes down to the idea that if Slaanesh wants Lucius to return then he will use his powers to make sure he does, no matter how he was killed or by who. Perhaps, Slaanesh would decide that someone who took satisfaction in the death of Lucius, but who wasn't the one who killed him, would be the next person to be possessed? On the other hand, if Slaanesh ever gets bored of Lucius, he'll be gone. Â EDIT: had a couple more thoughts on the subject. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1963937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Or if he was killed by a Necron... Â Or get killed by an orbital bombardment... Â Or get killed by a failed teleport... Â Or get killed by a tank shot... Â ok, I'm stopping now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1964063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
glayvin34 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 On the other hand, if Slaanesh ever gets bored of Lucius, he'll be gone. Â Slaanesh is a manifestation of excess and overindulgence, so the presence of Lucius will always be entertaining to the Lord of Dark Delights. She Who Is Not Named also uses Lucius as a tempting prize for any overindulgent hero, it would be very satisfying to slay Lucius, given that he's such a jerk. As a result Lucius is self-perpetuating, anyone who kills him is under Slaanesh's control before they even begin the duel, they have already handed over their souls in order to pursue such a lofty goal as slaying him. Â So, if Lucius is slain by some method other than a soul becoming corrupt enough to devote themselves to defeating Lucius for no other purpose that to defeat Lucius, Slaanesh will not have control over the killer's soul and won't be able to resurrect her toy in the killer's body. This would apply in the case of the transport mishap or orbital bombardment. If a Space Fleet general used the OB with the intent to kill Lucius, though, they would be in danger of being his next vessel. Â In summary, I don't think that Slaanesh's gift to Lucius is to make him immortal, but rather to use him as corruption bait. The fact that he happens to be outliving his normal lifespan is just a side-effect, so he's not immortal, he is just got a convenient gift from his Chaos God. Â Anyone else wanna take a whack at this horse? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1964178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondwind Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I think the story of Lucius and his apparent skill level means that he has only died very few times and as such has probably not met some of the few things that can resist chaos corruption. Â Grey knight's so far have been uncorruptable, their souls and training giving them such purity of faith that chaos has not found any way of breaking them not to mention their armour is designed with wards too stop chaos effects. Both these things make GK's such a pain for chaos but also a tempting prize. Â Chaos can only corrupt someone if there is a place that is corruptable, e.g. Lucius's requirement for his killer to have pride in his achievement. A grey knight could have pride, but I dont think they would have pride in killing lucius much rather for serving the emperor well which would bipass this requirement (thus making them avoid lucius "revival"). If for some reason they were still targets to be a conduit for lucius, then chaos would most likely have the challenge to get past the barriers of the aegis suit, the GK's psychic ability, the rest of his pure soul and faith in the emperor not to mention bringing lucius back from most likely being hit by one of the most powerful anti chaos weapons around - the Nemesis force weapon. Â In my mind if lucius died to a GK he would probably have his soul return to the warp where like a deamon it would recompile and then he would probably find a new host body from someone trying to summon a daemon and rinse repeat until slaanesh is bored... Â Â Â [edit] Oh just one last thing: If we went further and said he did inhabit the body of the GK and took his soul, like someone said the GK's soul would be probably very painful to hold and that the aegis armour could possibly be enough of a hinderance to make him an easy kill / hostage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1964223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Similarly, the Sisters of Battle are trained to be very humble, attributing their victories to the Emperor. Even simple luck they claim is the Emperor's blessings and miracles, making it hard to determine where luck ends and Acts of Faith begin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1964372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 Similarly, the Sisters of Battle are trained to be very humble, attributing their victories to the Emperor. Even simple luck they claim is the Emperor's blessings and miracles, making it hard to determine where luck ends and Acts of Faith begin. Â That does pose another interesting question of if the Sister would take enough pride in the act to fall. I doubt it... however the odds of a Sister or even a squad bringing down Lucius is rather slim to almost none. Unless of course he gets caught in the open at a distance :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166549-fluffy-question-about-lucius-the-eternal/#findComment-1964404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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