GKT Retinue and Holocaust

[Cedric]

Let's say a GK Hero purchases Holocaust and a retinue of GKT's

The entry for GKTs says they can purchase Holocaust too.

If they do, from which model in the retinue will the retinue's Holocaust start from?

 

The IC, even after firing one on his own?

Any retinue model?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Both the GK Hero and his GKT retinue can purchase Holocaust. The focus point for both in the GK Hero, he's the one the template must be touching when it is cast since he is the squad leader. Basically the squad Holocaust power follows the same procedure as it does for normal GKT squads, the Brother-Captain is simply replaced by the GK Hero.

 

I think this might have been covered in the latest FAQ, I'll try and find a link for you.

 

EDIT - yes, here we are. First question in the Psychic Powers section.

[Cedric]

Should have checked the FAQ, much obliged!

[Grand Master Tchezzarus]

Yep, both power will be "fired" from the GM/BC.

Tchezz.

[ThePurifier]

I'm way too chicken-poo to take Holocaust for the squad. One unlucky PotW roll and the whole squad probably wipes. Keep that in mind when taking both.

[Impactwinter]

meh, they have the 5+ invuln to maybe shrug it, and its not extremely likely in the first place;

acceptable risk for an epic assault-phase template than can clear whole squads of orks or 'nids

[ThePurifier]

Remember you have to re-roll any made Inv. saves as well. I agree though that the chances of an attack are pretty slim in the first place but ya never know.

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, the second to last sentence of the Holocaust power description implies that a GKT squad that suffers a perils attack will have each member of the squad dealt a Str 5, AP - hit. Which means that you would still need to roll for wounds and their 2+ armour save would still apply.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

meh, they have the 5+ invuln to maybe shrug it, and its not extremely likely in the first place;

acceptable risk for an epic assault-phase template than can clear whole squads of orks or 'nids

 

A 5+ invul they re-roll, and it's an automatic wound so if you do roll 'Perils', you'll lose the entire unit (unless you've got loaded dice or something).

It's not an acceptable risk to lose your entire 250pts+ unit (nevermind what a GM+retinue costs) because you failed one psychic test. Buy an incinerator, it works every time, denies all bar 3+ and 2+ armour saves, and can never kill you.

Actually, the second to last sentence of the Holocaust power description implies that a GKT squad that suffers a perils attack will have each member of the squad dealt a Str 5, AP - hit. Which means that you would still need to roll for wounds and their 2+ armour save would still apply.

 

SJ

 

No, what it says is;

 

'If a Grey Knight Terminator Squad uses this power and suffers a Perils of the Warp attack it will affect every member of the squad at the same Strength value'

 

Since 'Perils of the Warp' is no longer an automatic S6 hit that ignores armour saves (it's now just an automatic wound that forces re-rolls to any invul you attempt), that sentence is meaningless.

 

 

Bottom-line, don't every take 'Holocaust'. Stacked up against an incinerator;

 

- Incinerator ignores all bar 2+ and 3+ armour saves, Holocaust allows armour and invul

- Incinerator is a gun and is used outside of combat, 'Holocaust' requires the psyker/squad to be in combat to use it

- Incinerator always works and never misses (being a template weapon), 'Holocaust' requires psychic test and models not fully under the large blast are only hit on a 4+ (so still partial hits)

- Incinerator can never hit friendly models and will never backfire, 'Holocaust' can end up putting S5 hits onto friendly models (if successful) and can backfire spectacularly if you roll 'Perils' (and remember, it doesn't matter if you bought it for the squad or the GM/BC, it will still affect the whole unit if you roll 'Perils')

- Incinerator is 5pts cheaper

 

Until 'Holocaust' gets re-done, I'm not using it, and I advise everyone else to steer clear of it too.

[Cedric]

Why do you need to be in combat to use it?

A squad outside of an assault still gets an assault phase, in which the Holocaust can be cast.

[Gaz1858]

I really like holocaust. Especiialy against Orks and the like. My GKGM can go into combat with 4/5 attacks. Then drop a big template on the unit hitting another 4 maybe 5. And if your really lucky in positioning it you can catch an unengaged unit with it to!!!

[Secondwind]

Why do you need to be in combat to use it?

A squad outside of an assault still gets an assault phase, in which the Holocaust can be cast.

 

Depends on how you read the line "Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the assault phase at an effective initiative of 1."

I read this as that you need to be in combat to use it as you wouldnt get an initiative 1 phase for that unit otherwise.

 

Others have read this as you can use it in any assault phase though in combat at initiative 1. I think this is incorrect as when simply said, if your within assault range and its your turn then most likely youll be in combat... if its the enemys turn and they are in assault range they will probably assault you... if they dont assault you then they cant be within 1 inch of you which means that large blast template centred on you will hit 1-2 models tops in the majority of occurances reinforcing the idea that the psychic power was not designed with that use in mind thus a misinterpretation of the rule.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Why do you need to be in combat to use it?

A squad outside of an assault still gets an assault phase, in which the Holocaust can be cast.

 

Yeah, but in this case it specifies 'I1' as when the power is used. Initative steps are only conducted in actual close-combat, hence you need to be in combat to go to the 'Initative 1 step'.

 

I really like holocaust. Especiialy against Orks and the like. My GKGM can go into combat with 4/5 attacks. Then drop a big template on the unit hitting another 4 maybe 5. And if your really lucky in positioning it you can catch an unengaged unit with it to!!!

 

An incinerator will do the exact same thing, although it can't hit a different unit (only the unit you intend on charging). See my above comparison as to why the incinerator is better.

 

Others have read this as you can use it in any assault phase though in combat at initiative 1. I think this is incorrect as when simply said, if your within assault range and its your turn then most likely youll be in combat... if its the enemys turn and they are in assault range they will probably assault you... if they dont assault you then they cant be within 1 inch of you which means that large blast template centred on you will hit 1-2 models tops in the majority of occurances reinforcing the idea that the psychic power was not designed with that use in mind thus a misinterpretation of the rule.

 

Exactly.

[Marid]

- Incinerator can never hit friendly models and will never backfire, 'Holocaust' can end up putting S5 hits onto friendly models (if successful) and can backfire spectacularly if you roll 'Perils' (and remember, it doesn't matter if you bought it for the squad or the GM/BC, it will still affect the whole unit if you roll 'Perils')

 

I don't think this right. If the BC or GM buys Holocaust, I don't think every member of the squad takes a Perils wound.

 

Edit: The GW FAQ says that only the BC or GM would take a hit in this case.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't think this right. If the BC or GM buys Holocaust, I don't think every member of the squad takes a Perils wound.

 

Edit: The GW FAQ says that only the BC or GM would take a hit in this case.

 

True, I forgot about that in the FAQ.

 

It's still not a good situation, because if you get 'Perils' on a Brother-Captain he'll die (only has 1 wound), and if you get 'Perils' on Stern he's down to 1 wound.

[Marid]

It's still not a good situation, because if you get 'Perils' on a Brother-Captain he'll die (only has 1 wound), and if you get 'Perils' on Stern he's down to 1 wound.

 

I guess it comes down to that 1 in 18 chance. Are you willing to take it? Even if you do get the Perils attack, half the time Holocaust will still go off. If you count your BC as expendable, your risk is just 1 in 36 that your BC falls flat on his face. And 1 out of 9 times he might actually live through that to face the shame.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I guess it comes down to that 1 in 18 chance. Are you willing to take it? Even if you do get the Perils attack, half the time Holocaust will still go off. If you count your BC as expendable, your risk is just 1 in 36 that your BC falls flat on his face. And 1 out of 9 times he might actually live through that to face the shame.

 

Sure, 'Perils' isn't likely, but when it does happen it will kill your BC (whether he buys the power or the squad does). Once he's dead, they can't use 'Holocaust' again.

 

Hence, the only psychic powers I bother with are 'Destroy Daemon' (if I bought a Daemonhammer for the GM) or 'Hammerhand' (which is great for ripping the DCCW off walkers before they can swing). The GM is tough enough to weather a 'Perils' attack (he has 3 wounds after all)

[nathan-san]

Bottom-line, don't every take 'Holocaust'. Stacked up against an incinerator;

 

- Incinerator is a gun and is used outside of combat, 'Holocaust' requires the psyker/squad to be in combat to use it

 

 

Thats kind of the point though. The only army I've played with my Grey Knights is Tyranids, and contrary to what I originally thought - flamethrowers are fairly ineffective against bugs; by the time you are near enough to use it, the Tyranids have already charged you and locked you into close combat (rendering the flamer useless)

 

The only two times I've successfully used a flamethrower was when my Grey Knights landed from Deep-strike within flamer range (of course, after one round of shooting, they got charged by the Tyranids and couldn't use the flamer again), and when I had some IST in a Chimera do a drive by with flamers from the firing ports on their tank

 

 

A flamer is a really offensive weapon, and if you can position your guys to use it, then its effective. Holocaust is good wether you're attacking, or whether you're receiving a charge. Yes - you can only use it in close combat, but it can really even the tide of an assault.

[nathan-san]

Ah - the other thing to note is that when fighting Tyranids, their Shadow of the Warp power prevents you from suffering Perils of the Warp. Its like a risk free Holocaust!

[Aidoneus]

Ah - the other thing to note is that when fighting Tyranids, their Shadow of the Warp power prevents you from suffering Perils of the Warp. Its like a risk free Holocaust!

That's assuming you're a) fighting tyranids, b} they've taken either a Hive Tyrant or Zoanthrope, and c) they've given one of them Shadow in the Warp. That's pretty unlikely.

 

Also, it should be noted, you still need to roll 10 or under on 3D6. Since the average roll will be 10.5, that means your risk-free Holocaust will work just under half of the time. Just sayin'.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Thats kind of the point though. The only army I've played with my Grey Knights is Tyranids, and contrary to what I originally thought - flamethrowers are fairly ineffective against bugs; by the time you are near enough to use it, the Tyranids have already charged you and locked you into close combat (rendering the flamer useless)

 

The only two times I've successfully used a flamethrower was when my Grey Knights landed from Deep-strike within flamer range (of course, after one round of shooting, they got charged by the Tyranids and couldn't use the flamer again), and when I had some IST in a Chimera do a drive by with flamers from the firing ports on their tank

 

Right...so you've played with GK's against one specific army and that therefore invalidates using an incinerator? :D

A flamer is a really offensive weapon, and if you can position your guys to use it, then its effective. Holocaust is good wether you're attacking, or whether you're receiving a charge. Yes - you can only use it in close combat, but it can really even the tide of an assault.

 

'Holocaust' generates a handful of S5 hits on the enemy (and if in combat it's highly likely it hits your GKT's as well). It won't change the combat result by much, and if you're relying on such meagre damage to swing combats, you're assaulting the wrong targets.

Ah - the other thing to note is that when fighting Tyranids, their Shadow of the Warp power prevents you from suffering Perils of the Warp. Its like a risk free Holocaust!

 

Yeah, but your psychic tests are made on 3D6 picking the two highest, which makes it harder to succeed in the first place. An incinerator doesn't care either way, and works everytime.

 

Ah damn, just noticed the above post, ninja'd B)

[Impactwinter]

I'm a little late to the button with this, but I'm reading some of the comments about friendly-hits from holocaust as "unavoidable"

you do know you don't have to center the template over the psyker right? it just has to touch his base, on the first round of an assault, its pretty much guaranteed that you can place it so's you don't graze friendly termies. Subsequent rounds get messier, but with a 2+ armor save, it isn't really a risk (and if you're doing it right, there usually aren't subsequent rounds)

 

I've been playing DH for about 6 years now, and I have never, ever lost a termie to friendly fire. Perils is a genuine issue, but i don't consider friendly splash to be an issue since you can place to avoid it.

 

the incinerator is a great weapon, and I have one in my GKT retinue for added oomph, but i promise you that holocaust definitely has a place in an all-comers list. A land-raider based retinue (5) just does not have the raw attacks to reliably flatten anything with more than 10 models, let alone a mob of 30 boyz; Maim it badly, sure, but sometimes thats not enough.

 

There are no partials anymore, so its not uncommon for me to get 7+ hits on the template against standard base models. yeah the s6 Power weapons will tear stuff up, but sometimes its all about the wounds, and holocaust is a great equalizer in that case.

[jeffersonian000]

I just encountered a situation where an opponent could have gotten 3 holocausts off in the single melee (GM attached to an Elite GKT squad, allowing for three purchases of the power). He neither used Holocaust, nor purchased it if I remember correctly, but the thought of "If he did, that would have been nasty" went through my head.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Tyrak]

jeffersonian000 Posted Today, 09:52 PM

I just encountered a situation where an opponent could have gotten 3 holocausts off in the single melee (GM attached to an Elite GKT squad, allowing for three purchases of the power). He neither used Holocaust, nor purchased it if I remember correctly, but the thought of "If he did, that would have been nasty" went through my head

 

Impossible. You can't have that in that scenario. The GK Hero has the option to purchase Holocaust. So does a GKT squad. The Brother-Captain of a GKT squad cannot also purchase Holocaust unless he is chosen as the GK Hero.

The only way to have three Holocausts in one squad is to have a GK Hero and retinue (or attached to a GKT squad), both with Holocaust, and then an Elites Inquisitor attached to the GKTs who too has Holocaust.

[Aidoneus]

You can't have that in that scenario. The GK Hero has the option to purchase Holocaust. So does a GKT squad. The Brother-Captain of a GKT squad cannot also purchase Holocaust unless he is chosen as the GK Hero.

The only way to have three Holocausts in one squad is to have a GK Hero and retinue (or attached to a GKT squad), both with Holocaust, and then an Elites Inquisitor attached to the GKTs who too has Holocaust.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. Don't have my book with me to check, but I remember looking very carefully before for any difference between an HQ Brother Captain and the E squad-leader Brother Captain, and deciding that the one and only difference was that one was an IC (or became one when his retinue died), while the other was not. Other than that, I'm fairly certain they're identical.

 

P.S. About Jeffersonian's moment: just remember, if he had taken those 3 Holocausts, that would have been 60pts he could not have spent on his list. For an ability with such narrow usefulness, I feel like I'd rather have two and a half more PAGKs, or maybe just 1 Holocaust and most of another GKT.