GKT Retinue and Holocaust

[Impactwinter]

again, cannot have three, except with a GM/BC hero w/ holocaust +Retinue w/ Holocaust+ another IC with holocaust.

 

The elites choice GKT's can choose to add Holocaust to the squad at +20, a GK Hero (BC) can choose the power individually and his retinue can double up;

But the BC leader of the elite squad does not get to choose a psychic power.

They may be "identical" in cost, but the different slot in the FoC makes the difference, one of these things is not like the other!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm a little late to the button with this, but I'm reading some of the comments about friendly-hits from holocaust as "unavoidable"

you do know you don't have to center the template over the psyker right? it just has to touch his base, on the first round of an assault, its pretty much guaranteed that you can place it so's you don't graze friendly termies. Subsequent rounds get messier, but with a 2+ armor save, it isn't really a risk (and if you're doing it right, there usually aren't subsequent rounds)

 

You might only hit the BC to begin with (remember, the template has to touch him as well), but once pile-in etc occurs, you'll have to start hitting your own guys. While you do get a 2+ armour save against it, it's still S5 hits you don't need to take.

 

I've been playing DH for about 6 years now, and I have never, ever lost a termie to friendly fire. Perils is a genuine issue, but i don't consider friendly splash to be an issue since you can place to avoid it.

 

Fair enough. The friendly hits from a successful 'Holocaust' aren't really my main reservation on using it; it's the Perils (if bought on the BC, one 'Perils' kills him, and if bought for the squad one 'Perils' kills the entire unit) and the lack of hitting power (the S5 hits have no AP, nor do they ignore invulnerable saves).

 

the incinerator is a great weapon, and I have one in my GKT retinue for added oomph, but i promise you that holocaust definitely has a place in an all-comers list. A land-raider based retinue (5) just does not have the raw attacks to reliably flatten anything with more than 10 models, let alone a mob of 30 boyz; Maim it badly, sure, but sometimes thats not enough.

 

You're using them wrong then. Charging GKT's into 30-strong Boyz mobs is a deathwish; the Boyz are Fearless until they reach 10-models, and their powerklaw Nob will be knocking down 2-3 Terminators every round (not to mention he instant-deaths your GM). A 10-strong dual incinerator PAGK squad on the charge will take a 30-strong Boyz mob apart quite quickly (about 17 kills from their shooting, plus another 9 kills before the Orks hit back).

 

There are no partials anymore, so its not uncommon for me to get 7+ hits on the template against standard base models. yeah the s6 Power weapons will tear stuff up, but sometimes its all about the wounds, and holocaust is a great equalizer in that case.

 

Incinerators are better 'equalisers', as they ignore all bar 3+ and 2+ armour saves (and secondary things like FNP/WBB), which are conversely ignored entirely by the S6 power weapon attacks you get in close-combat. 'Holocaust' allows any and all saves (except of course cover), making it less than ideal for killing even 4+ armour infantry (hell, even Boyz get a 6+ armour save against it).

I just encountered a situation where an opponent could have gotten 3 holocausts off in the single melee (GM attached to an Elite GKT squad, allowing for three purchases of the power). He neither used Holocaust, nor purchased it if I remember correctly, but the thought of "If he did, that would have been nasty" went through my head.

 

Ok, lets for arguments sake say that he successfully cast 'Holocaust' three times using the same unit. He then places each template in contact with the BC/GM (who is hit on a 4+ by it, don't forget, as he's touched by it), and work out how many are hit. Assuming you're fighting a big mass of enemy infantry, and pile-in+Defenders React hasn't placed any of your own guys under the template (unlikely but possible). Lets then assume that you manage to get 7-8 hits per template, working out to 23 hits.

 

Against T3 attackers, this equates to 19 wounds. A 6+ save will reduce this to 15 casualties, a 5+ to 12 kills, a 4+ to 9 kills. On the off-chance you charged a ball of SoB (ie the 20-strong horde style squad), you only kill 6 of your opponents.

 

Against T4 attackers, this equates to 15 wounds. A 6+ save will reduce this to 12 kills, a 5+ to 10 kills, a 4+ to 7 kills. If you charged MeQ's, it's 5 kills.

 

Two incinerators will generate 15 hits between them, and kill 12-13 x T3 opponents flat-out (unless they're SoB, in which case it drops to 4 kills). Likewise, against T4 opponents, you'll kill 10 of them (unless they're Marines etc, in which case it drops to 3-4). The ability to ignore cover, 4+ or worse and and invulnerable saves is incredible.

 

 

Hence why I'd take incinerators. They're half the price, but do very close to the same amount of damage against anything not in power armour or TDA (or similiar armour types).

 

edit: Ah, so it appears you can't get the 2nd Holocaust on the elite BC anyway. That changes the math to be even more in favour of the incinerator.

[jeffersonian000]

P.S. About Jeffersonian's moment: just remember, if he had taken those 3 Holocausts, that would have been 60pts he could not have spent on his list. For an ability with such narrow usefulness, I feel like I'd rather have two and a half more PAGKs, or maybe just 1 Holocaust and most of another GKT.

 

I concur. Personally, I never take Holocaust, as 20pts here, 10 there, it all adds up. and I's hate to lose a unit to my bad rolling with out even getting shot at.

 

SJ