Stormbolters

[travh20]

In 4th edition there was such a thing as one handed and two handed weapons. The Stormbolter used to be a two handed weapon and did not give you an extra attack in CC like a bolt pistol did.

 

In looking through the new rule book and the new SM codex I see nothing at all that says a Stormbolter does not give you an extra attack, it simply says Assault 2.

[Seahawk]

As an Assault weapon (because it is an Assault 2 weapon, that means it's an assault weapon) it only means you can shoot with it and then assault.

 

It didn't give you an extra attack before, and it doesn't give you one now. It is not a Pistol, as those are the only category of guns that give you an extra attack in close combat.

[Captain Malachi]

Single handed weapons never gave you an extra attack in CC. It was only CCWs and special CCWs like power weapons, and pistols that gave you an extra attack. It was just convenient that most single handed weapons were also some form of weapon that gave you an extra attack.

 

Note however that thanks to a special rule that only they have, Grey Knights can in fact use their storm bolters to get an extra attack in CC. Other models can occasionaly do a similar thing with normal bolters, but it'll be specified in their special rules.

[Mal]

In the CC section of the rule book (p.42 I believe but thats from memory as I dont have it infront of me now) it states that a pistol counts as a CCW, at no point does ANY other gun count as a CCW.

 

So if it doesn't have pistol in its profile, it doesn't count as a CCW.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree with you guys on these points;

 

- Normal storm bolter is a two-handed gun that can't be combined with a single-handed close-combat weapon

- Grey Knights have 'True Grit' (remember, only ones in power armour), which over-rides the above, thus allowing them to combine their NFW (which is a single-handed close-combat weapon) with their storm bolters (which are stated to 'count as pistols') for +1A. As the drawback though, they can't claim the bonus Attack for charging.

 

Single handed weapons never gave you an extra attack in CC.

 

I suggest you read pg. 42 of the BRB a little more closely. In summary (as I'm not going to quote the entire page), it works like this;

 

- There are single-handed and two-handed weapons

- You can use any weapon in close-combat (rifle butts etc), doesn't have to be defined as a 'close-combat weapon'

- Two-handed weapons deny you the bonus Attack for two single-handed weapons (because they can't be combined with another weapon)

- Pistols are the most common single-handed gun, but there are a few other single-handed weapons in the same boat (neural shredder was FAQ'd as single-handed, and the DH storm shield counts as a single-handed weapon despite not being a weapon persay)

- The bonus Attack requires only that you have 'two single-handed weapons', or a 'single-handed normal weapon and single-handed special close-combat weapon'. So, for example, you could have a model duel-wielding pistols (Creed), and they would be able to claim the bonus Attack, despite the pistols not being close-combat weapons persay (they're actually ranged weapons).

[ArmouredWing]

It is not a Pistol, as those are the only category of guns that give you an extra attack in close combat.

I'm not sure that Seraphim hand flamers are classed as pistols but they do give a bonus CC attack. Not got the codex on me so I may very well be incorrect.

[Seahawk]

We're both right.

 

No matter what, Pistols are the only ranged weapons category that has the ranged weapon count as an additional ccw in close combat. There are weapons from other categories that have special rules in the codex that trump this, such as the GK stormbolter, SoB hand flamer, and others, but this is mentioned specifically in the codex, not the BRB.

[Agrab]

We're both right.

 

No matter what, Pistols are the only weapons category that has the ranged weapon count as an additional ccw in close combat. There are weapons from other categories that have special rules in the codex that trump this, such as the GK stormbolter, SoB hand flamer, and others, but this is mentioned specifically in the codex, not the BRB.

 

actually, any single handed weapon, unless in a prohibited list (PF, etc.), count as an extra for CC concerns

 

thus, the stormbolter does count as an extra close combat attack provided it is combined with nothing that limits them

[Seahawk]

Back that up with a quote involving ranged weapons, as that is not true. If that were the case, lascannons, missile launchers, actually anything is a one-handed weapon, so long as you model it correctly :D. Which is not true, simple as that. You are referring to single-handed close combat weapons, not ranged weapons.

 

The only ranged weapon that gives the bonus are Pistols, as shown on pages 28 and 29, with codex exceptions in addition to that.

[Agrab]

Back that up with a quote involving ranged weapons, as that is not true. If that were the case, lascannons, missile launchers, actually anything is a one-handed weapon, so long as you model it correctly :D. Which is not true, simple as that.

 

The only ranged weapon that gives the bonus are Pistols, as shown on pages 28 and 29.

 

read page 42 of the BRB

that said, lascannons, missile launchers, etc. are defined as two handed (modeling doesn't matter, rules do)

[Bran Scalphunter]

actually, any single handed weapon, unless in a prohibited list (PF, etc.), count as an extra for CC concerns

 

thus, the stormbolter does count as an extra close combat attack provided it is combined with nothing that limits them

 

No, it doesn't. A close combat weapon is a specific group of weapons that are carried in one hand (or claw) and used to beat your opponents to death in close combat. A pistol is a ranged weapon, that by its own rules, is allowed to wielded as a close combat weapon. A storm bolter however, is not a Pistol, but an Assault Weapon. Because the Assault Weapon rules do not state that you gain an extra attack when using with a close combat weapon, you do NOT get +1A for two close combat weapons. Like everyone else has said, there are exceptions to this rule (GK, SW, ect), but for most armies you can't get another attack because you have a storm bolter and chainsword.

 

Going by your logic, my Terminator Sergeant has 4A on the charge, my Devastators have 2A each. See how screwed up that is?

[Seahawk]

read page 42 of the BRB

that said, lascannons, missile launchers, etc. are defined as two handed (modeling doesn't matter, rules do)

I did. It only talks about close combat weapons, not ranged weapons, and a ranged weapon is the OT. Heavy weapons are not defined as being two-handed anymore, anyway. Rifle butts (like the stormbolter's!) are though :(. All ranged weapons are categorized by Assault, Rapid Fire, Pistol, etc. That is the key.

[bystrom]

Pg 37 lists the bonus attack for two weapons as: models with two single-handed weapons.

It makes no distinction between close combat weapons and ranged weapons.

 

Pg 42 makes this distinction under Fighting with two single-handed weapons as there is no possible combination (in their minds) involving non-close combat weapons (they only state normal close combat weapons). What complicates matters is the fact that the preamble of that section describes weapons that do not 'exist' in the sense that they describe using a ranged weapon in close combat (such as the butt of a rifle) that is not specifically designated as part of a warrior's gear. (What this could open up for is for example saying marines are using bolters in a single-hand grip together with their pistols in brutal point-blank shooting, they're two close combat weapons, as they fall under the etc. of normal close combat weapons.)

 

This is countered under the various descriptions of different ranged weapon types, only the Pistol is noted as a single-handed weapon, the others are not mentioned. Which could be argued that the only ranged weapon that can count as a single-handed ranged weapon usable in close combat is a Pistol.

 

I can't find any statement that Chainswords or Combat Blades are single-handed close combat weapons in the 5th ed. C:SM. It seems to me that close combat weapons are single-handed unless explicitly stated and ranged weapons are two-handed (both ranged and in close combat) unless explicitly stated, as there are examples were two-handed close combat weapons are mentioned and examples of single-handed ranged weapons.

[Lord Humongous]

actually, any single handed weapon, unless in a prohibited list (PF, etc.), count as an extra for CC concerns

 

thus, the stormbolter does count as an extra close combat attack provided it is combined with nothing that limits them

 

How about ork boyz with shootas? Nothing I know of defines the shoota as two handed. Can we give THEM an extra attack, on top of the shooting? If so, whats the point of slugga boyz?

[Isiah]

Pg 37 lists the bonus attack for two weapons as: models with two single-handed weapons.

It makes no distinction between close combat weapons and ranged weapons.

Yes it does because it says:

 

"+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack." p37 C:SM

 

Unless a weapon is actually described as being a close combat weapon in it's Codex entry or having a close combat capability, or it's weapon type is described as having a close combat capability in the BRB (as pistols for instance) then it can't be used as one simple as that so no bonus attack can be claimed.

 

 

I can't find any statement that Chainswords or Combat Blades are single-handed close combat weapons in the 5th ed. C:SM.

Usually two-handed close combat weapons like the C:SM Relic Blade for instance, or the GKs Eviscerator, are shown as such in it's weapon entry. Thus a close combat weapon not shown as being two-handed isn't two-handed.

 

 

As Seahawks says the only ranged weapon that gets to be included as a normal close combat weapon is the pistol, as detailed on p42.

So to answer the OPs question, no, the storm bolter does not confer an additional attack - unless used with True Grit on power-armoured GK.

 

Cheers

I

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes it does because it says:

 

"+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack." p37 C:SM

 

Unless a weapon is described as being a close combat weapon in it's Codex entry then it can't be used as one.

 

There are two Ranged Assault weapons I know of that are classed as one handed weapons. A DE gun and the Callidus NS. Can these be used alongside a Power Weapon (or CCW) to confer another attack?

 

Personally I'm of the notion no, as even though they are defined as one handed, they are no where defined as a weapon useable in Close Combat (Unlike a generic CCW is), and that the label refers only to (the now outdated) notion of armouries, which contain the two 1 handed / 1 2 handed weapon restriction.

 

But, They are 1 handed weapons.

[Isiah]

There are two Ranged Assault weapons I know of that are classed as one handed weapons. A DE gun and the Callidus NS. Can these be used alongside a Power Weapon (or CCW) to confer another attack?

 

Neural Shredders are Assault 1 template weapons so no bonus attack there.

DE gun??

 

Remember the single or double-handed thing does not itself denote a weapon capable of assault and hence potentially getting a bonus attack. They must either be classified as being a close combat weapon or having a close combat capability. Then they must be used together with another close combat weapon. Only then is the bonus gained.

 

Exceptions are powerfists, thunder hammers and lightning claws that must always be used in pairs to gain the bonus attack. And two special weapons that never gain the attack bonus for multiple weapons.

[bystrom]

Pg 37 lists the bonus attack for two weapons as: models with two single-handed weapons.

It makes no distinction between close combat weapons and ranged weapons.

Yes it does because it says:

 

"+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack." p37 C:SM

 

Unless a weapon is actually described as being a close combat weapon in it's Codex entry or having a close combat capability, or it's weapon type is described as having a close combat capability in the BRB (as pistols for instance) then it can't be used as one simple as that so no bonus attack can be claimed.

 

 

That's the quote, it says two single-handed weapons (and you mean the rulebook rather than C:SM? :P)! The parenthesis just gives an example of what that usually means, no-where is it demanded that the two single-handed weapons have to be close combat weapons as well. That's the problem (as it says typically, try ignoring the part inside the parenthesis and just reading the whole sentence: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons get an extra +1 attack.)

 

Which brings me to the point that ranged weapons are probably all two-handed unless specifically noted (including in close combat) while close combat weapons are all single-handed unless specifically noted.

[Gentlemanloser]

Neural Shredders are Assault 1 template weapons so no bonus attack there.

 

That's the side of the rules I'm on. :D But I've seen the other side debated quite a bit. The rulebook does state one handed weapons give the extra attack, and even with old armory based codexes, there aren't *any* other Ranged weapons that are also one handed, other than all Pistols, the NS and DE gun (can't remember the name).

 

There is a case to be made that the NS and DE gun also give the +1 attack when used with another CCW/Power Weapon.

 

DE gun??

 

Can't remember the name. Agoniser maybe? It's an Assault Gun, that's noted to be one handed.

[Isiah]

There is a case to be made that the NS and DE gun also give the +1 attack when used with another CCW/Power Weapon.

 

Not unless they're categorised as being a close combat weapon of some kind or listed as being a pistol weapon.

[Gentlemanloser]

Isiah, that's my view as well.

 

"+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack." p37 C:SM

 

But by that rule, you don't need to be listed as a CCW nor a Pistol. All you need is to be 1 Handed. Typically these are CCW or Pistols (which are specific wepaons types), but untypically it could include the NS.

 

That's the counter arguement. ;)

[Praeger]

read page 42 of the BRB

that said, lascannons, missile launchers, etc. are defined as two handed (modeling doesn't matter, rules do)

 

Could you please provide a rules quote and list of what weapons are one handed and what are two handed?

 

Until you can provide such a list please stick to what the rules actually say.

[Gentlemanloser]

Could you please provide a rules quote and list of what weapons are one handed and what are two handed?

 

Older Codexes cover most weapons with thier armouries. And Codex > Main Rule Book.

 

That being said I can't think of one Armoury that contains a Lascannon, but the SW 'Dex lists Assault Cannons as 2 Handed. It would be streaching the now thin internal consistancy of weapons if we ignored the handedness of weapons listed in armories with Codexes for Codexes without them.

 

While not RAW, and seeing as there are non armoury firearms (like Sniper Rifles), it would probably be the better option to to lump all respective weapons together. Like all Shooting weapons are 2 Handed, with exceptions as stated (Pistols, the NS and that DE gun). And all CCW are 1 handed, with the Exception of Eviscerators and Relic Blades and the like.

 

Otherwise we're left with a rules gap, where handedness is still required, but not defined, and all we have are ambiguous zero handed weapons.

 

Unless of course the handedness rule is only needed for weapons definded as being useable in Close Combat, and all Shooting weapons, regardless of their handedness, that arent explicitly stated as being useable in CC, don't require a handedness number.

 

Edit: Original thread I was discussing the handedness of the NS in. Which brings up a discussion about assumptions of weapon handednesses.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=145171

[Praeger]

Otherwise we're left with a rules gap, where handedness is still required, but not defined, and all we have are ambiguous zero handed weapons.

 

Unless of course the handedness rule is only needed for weapons definded as being useable in Close Combat, and all Shooting weapons, regardless of their handedness, that arent explicitly stated as being useable in CC, don't require a handedness number.

 

Your 2nd point is actuall correct.

 

The weapons "handiness" dosnt matter. It can be one, it can be zero (as some are) it can be 3 or more - it only matters for close combat where specificly mentioned.

 

For example - say GW introduce a new Eldar weapon called the "death gun" or some such - its modeled as a small pistol or maybe a box or something, easily SEEN to be one handed. But its not a pistol, the ability of the gun is so great, that just like power fists it does not allow the +1 attack.

 

It would actually be a form of cheating in these circumstances to demand the extra attack - after all GW has said exactly how and when you get it and anything else would be going around the rules.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The neural shredder is defined in the WH FAQ as a single-handed weapon. Thus, it can be combined with the phase blade on a Callidus Assassin for +1A (giving her 4 base, 5 on the charge).

 

I think that the only non-pistol ranged weapon that is single-handed however. Rifle buts etc are two-handed.

 

The thing to remember is that while ANY weapon can be used in close-combat, only specific weapons (ie single-handed, defined close-combat weapons) grant bonuses like +1A with two of them, or 'ignores armour saves'.

 

Grey Knights in power armour are the only unit in the game that can combine their storm bolters with their NFW's for +1A. For everyone else, it's a two-handed gun.