Stormbolters

[Praeger]

Grey Knights in power armour are the only unit in the game that can combine their storm bolters with their NFW's for +1A. For everyone else, it's a two-handed gun.

 

Again, no. Its not a single handed OR two handed weapon. Such clasification DO NOT EXIST anymore and never did to begin with for normal units.

 

The storm bolter is a weapon. Since it is not a pistol and does not count as a CCW it does not give +1A

 

Grey Knightsa however have a speacial rule which specificly states that storm bolters will now grant an extra A. This does not give it any "hand" clasification. Just as a bolter does not have any "hand" clasification nor flamers meltas etc etc - in the grey's case its an adition SIMPLY BECOUSE THE RULES SPECIFICLY STATE THAT A BONUS IS GIVEN - this is actually one of the "other" things that can grant the +1A that the asault rules mention.

 

So again for clarity - there is no single handed multi handed etc. What counts is "pistol" "CCW" or some other notice about its use in combat.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think that the only non-pistol ranged weapon that is single-handed however

 

There ate two DE guns. I thought it was one, but i'm not familiar with the codex. The names of the two are in the thread I linked.

 

Again, no. Its not a single handed OR two handed weapon. Such clasification DO NOT EXIST anymore and never did to begin with for normal units.

 

For every SM Codex with an Armory (every current imperial Codex bar the new SM one), a Storm Bolter is a 2 Handed Weapon. It's a needed distinction.

 

We could assume that the SM SB isn't 2 handed, but then it's steaching the already slim internal consistency with regards to identicle wargear.

[Legatus]

For every SM Codex with an Armory (every current imperial Codex bar the new SM one), a Storm Bolter is a 2 Handed Weapon. It's a needed distinction.

Codex Dark Angels and Codex Imperial Guard do not describe how many hands you need for a weapon. Neither do Codex Orks, Codex Chaos Space Marines or Codex Eldar. That the older Codices do make a destinction does not change the fact that the current rule system does not work that way.

These books have some weapons with the "pistol" property, though, and these weapons are specifically described in the weapon section of the BBB (p. 29) as counting as a close combat weapon in teh assault phase. That pistols can be used one-handed is now merely fluff. That they are described as counting as a close combat weapons is the relevant rule.

[JamesI]

So, if handedness is irrelevant, what prevents a chaos lord with demon weapon from gaining +1 attack for his pistol? The codex says its twohanded.

[Mal]

Handedness is irrelivant for shooting weapons, its very relevant for CC weapons.

 

I think thats where some of this confusion is comming from.

[Gentlemanloser]

Codex Dark Angels and Codex Imperial Guard do not describe how many hands you need for a weapon.

 

Heh, I own the DA Codex and forgot it's not got an armory. I don't think the BA mini Dex does either. This the new IG 'dex you're talking about? Not seen it yet.

 

Neither do Codex Orks, Codex Chaos Space Marines or Codex Eldar. That the older Codices do make a destinction does not change the fact that the current rule system does not work that way.

 

The newer Dexs and rule are moving away from armouries. That doesn't make the armories of the older dexes invalid though. Strom Bolters are 2 handed wepaons. Unless the Inqusitorial, Black Templar and Space Wolf Storm Bolters are all different to the SM and DA ones. Which seems even more silly than 4+ in CConly and 3+ All round Storm Shields... But you can't say all Storm Bolters have no handidness.

 

These books have some weapons with the "pistol" property, though, and these weapons are specifically described in the weapon section of the BBB (p. 29) as counting as a close combat weapon in teh assault phase. That pistols can be used one-handed is now merely fluff. That they are described as counting as a close combat weapons is the relevant rule.

 

I agree. The NS and two DE one handed wepaons can't be used in CC, as they aren't wepaons described as being useable *in* CC. But some disagree, and that it's only the handidness that counts.

[Legatus]

The newer Dexs and rule are moving away from armouries. That doesn't make the armories of the older dexes invalid though.

They are not "invalid", but it is evidence that the designation for a ranged weapon of being one- or two-handed is irrelevant in 5th Edition.

[Secondwind]

This is my opinion that the rules have slightly changed since the codex's have been getting rewritten away from the big open optioned block of text called an armys "Armoury" some of the clarity of what is defined as a 1 handed and what is a 2 handed has been whisked into the rule book.

 

Now handedness mattered the most back then due to the fact players got the ability to choose weapons for their character with the limitation of "Characters can have up to two weapons, one of which may be a two handed weapon." (quoted from the DH codex as it is old enough to retain its armoury.)

 

With the removal of the Armoury - ala C:SM, C:CSM etc. - players choice's have been limited by a stricter enforcement of what can be replaced with what (which is commonly like for like).

e.g. On an SM force commander you have a chainsword / boltpistol standard you may replace your chainsword OR boltpistol with a plasma pistol (allowing a nice conversion for pistol heads) with no changes to ingame play due to pistols effectively working like a chainsword in combat and have to choose one weapon to shoot in the shooting phase unless a special rule says otherwise.

 

 

 

I however cant see the confusion regarding the rules. The BRB states clearly on page 37 "Each engaged model strikes with the number of attacks (A) on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks:"

 

It then goes on to say "+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack."

 

Read the ranged weapons section of the BRB now pages 28-29 inparticular and you will find the only ranged weapon which has section on use in combat is Pistols. To quote: "In addition pistols count as a close combat weapon in the assault phase"

 

Any other ranged weapon in my opinion must have a specific rule / exception to grant them this bonus (as quoted before - "True Grit")

 

Further elaboration regarding this is on page 42 of the BRB where it goes into detail about normal and special combat weapons and fighting with two single-handed weapons where it outlines the general conception of how weapons are used in conjunction with each other.

 

 

 

--Now the only thing I can't see in the rulebook is a clear rule stating that all assault, heavy and rapid fire weapons count as two handed and that close combat weapons are 1 handed unless otherwise noted in the specific weapons profile. The rules imply that this is the case and that we the players are to decide using common sense how weapons would be protrayed.

 

I believe you only have to think of a tactical marine armed with a boltgun or missle launcher to accept that this is the way as beating someone with the butt of a boltgun or hitting them with a missle launcher is generally considered a way of fighting which would require 2 hands. If you read it any other way then tactical marines would have 2 attacks standard in combat due to carrying a bolt pistol and a boltgun. --Now I dont know anyone who counts a tactical marine with a boltgun or missle launcher as having 2x attacks basic...

[Frosty the Pyro]

goram people, pg 42

 

"Some models are equiped with two single handed weapons they can use in close combat,....."

 

 

note that being able to be used in close combat is a requirement. Those are defined as a close combat weapon. Storm bolters are not CCW, so no extra attack. chaos terminators reaper autocannon are not ccw, you cant use them for +1 attack with their power sword. nor a terminators heavy flamer.

[Praeger]

So, if handedness is irrelevant, what prevents a chaos lord with demon weapon from gaining +1 attack for his pistol? The codex says its twohanded.

 

Being two handed or more or less does not matter.

 

What DOES matter is this - do the rules for the weapon grant him an extra atack, say that the weapon counts as a single handed CCW or a pistol? if not then no extra attack. Simple as that.

 

That doesn't make the armories of the older dexes invalid though. Strom Bolters are 2 handed wepaons. Unless the Inqusitorial, Black Templar and Space Wolf Storm Bolters are all different to the SM and DA ones. But you can't say all Storm Bolters have no handidness.

 

Storm bolters DONT USE OR NEED HANDS.

 

That rule was for picking weapons in the armoury NOTHING else. Not even in the 3rd or 4th edition rules did the hands count, it was pistol or CCW NOTHING else mattered.

 

2 handed, 1 handed etc ONLY MATERD FOR ARMOUR PURCHASES.

 

And again, where did it ever say a reaper autocannon, missile launcher, meltagun, flamer, etc etc where 2 handed or more? Nowehere as it has never mattered.

 

Unless the rules for the weapon call it a CCW or pistol or SPECIFICLY stat it grants a bonus THEN IT DOES NOT MATER.

[paradigms_shift]

- Grey Knights have 'True Grit' (remember, only ones in power armour), which over-rides the above, thus allowing them to combine their NFW (which is a single-handed close-combat weapon) with their storm bolters (which are stated to 'count as pistols') for +1A. As the drawback though, they can't claim the bonus Attack for charging.

 

Actually, they do get the bonus attack for charging, but not the one for the Storm Bolter if they charge. Semantics, I guess. :) Long and short of it is PA GK always have two CC attacks. :)

[Reglor]

- Grey Knights have 'True Grit' (remember, only ones in power armour), which over-rides the above, thus allowing them to combine their NFW (which is a single-handed close-combat weapon) with their storm bolters (which are stated to 'count as pistols') for +1A. As the drawback though, they can't claim the bonus Attack for charging.

 

Actually, they do get the bonus attack for charging, but not the one for the Storm Bolter if they charge. Semantics, I guess. :D Long and short of it is PA GK always have two CC attacks. :D

 

Most of the time it will be semantics, but remeber, it does matter where you get the bonus from. If you charge a unit with defensive grenades you will not get the +1 attack.

[DevianID]

Where has a storm bolter ever been described one handed anyway? Is the OP referring to the fact that terminator models wield the stormbolter with 1 arm (as they do with assault cannons) and thus storm bolter models can be described as 1 handed?

 

Also, models armed with two 1 handed weapons gain the bonus attack. In 5th, they dont necessarily need to be close combat weapons as well, so the callidus assassian's neural shredder, if it is still FAQ'd to state it is a one handed weapon, will stack with the Phase sword (another 1 handed weapon) to grant +1 attack.

 

However, weapons that do not explicitly state they are one handed, do not count as one handed. IE, in the current space marine book, if Storm Bolters are not defined as 1 handed weapons, then they are not. The fact that they are not defined as 1 handed weapons does not mean that they are 2 handed weapons, and vice versa--if they have no defination of handedness (90% of new codex weapons nowadays dont) then they are treated as no handed weapons, and have no impact on how a model will fight in close combat.

[paradigms_shift]

- Grey Knights have 'True Grit' (remember, only ones in power armour), which over-rides the above, thus allowing them to combine their NFW (which is a single-handed close-combat weapon) with their storm bolters (which are stated to 'count as pistols') for +1A. As the drawback though, they can't claim the bonus Attack for charging.

 

Actually, they do get the bonus attack for charging, but not the one for the Storm Bolter if they charge. Semantics, I guess. ;) Long and short of it is PA GK always have two CC attacks. B)

 

Most of the time it will be semantics, but remeber, it does matter where you get the bonus from. If you charge a unit with defensive grenades you will not get the +1 attack.

 

Good point, forgot about that. Doh.

[Gentlemanloser]

Storm bolters DONT USE OR NEED HANDS.

 

That rule was for picking weapons in the armoury NOTHING else. Not even in the 3rd or 4th edition rules did the hands count, it was pistol or CCW NOTHING else mattered.

 

2 handed, 1 handed etc ONLY MATERD FOR ARMOUR PURCHASES.

 

And again, where did it ever say a reaper autocannon, missile launcher, meltagun, flamer, etc etc where 2 handed or more? Nowehere as it has never mattered.

 

Unless the rules for the weapon call it a CCW or pistol or SPECIFICLY stat it grants a bonus THEN IT DOES NOT MATER.

 

Agreed.

 

Still, they are, by definition (at least in any codex with an armoury) a two handed weapon. It doesn't matter if that's only ever a requirement when purchasing frm the armory and shooting never ever needs handidness clarification, it defines Storm Bolters as 2 handed.

 

Unless the rules for the weapon call it a CCW or pistol

 

This is the side of the discussion I side with. And the NS doesn't confer the extra attack, as although it's listed as one handed, it's never ever mentioned to be a weapon useable in CC.

 

But there is a lot of opinion that sides with the fact that as handidness has no relevance to shooting, listing the NS as one handed is a distinction made to allow it to confer the extra attack in CC (it's also interesting to not the C'Tan Phase Blade doesn't have a handidness either, so it might not even be a one handed weapon to work alongisde the NS anyway...). It can't be purchased from any armoury, so why does the FAQ list it as one handed, if not to clarify that that is enough to confer the extra attack.

 

This is, I feel, a hiccup from newer Core rules and two editions out of date Codexes (which are now suppoed to update the newer core rules. lol...). It's obvious the way the rules are moving (removal of armories and the necessity of handidness entirely), but the current mish-mash of out of dates rules is something GW needs to address properly.

 

The Core rules don't require handidness any more (and if they do for extra CC attacks, it should be clarified to something that isn't ethereal to the rest of the rule set), for shooting, purchase or carrying capacity. But older Codexes still require this information.

 

The granting of an extra attack could have been much more easily ruled and described. And the notion of Shooting weapons or CC weapons reinforced.

[DevianID]

Still, they are, by definition (at least in any codex with an armoury) a two handed weapon. It doesn't matter if that's only ever a requirement when purchasing frm the armory and shooting never ever needs handidness clarification, it defines Storm Bolters as 2 handed.

I think OP may be referring to the new storm bolters on the newest marine terminators, as they use them 1 handed per the model but have no handedness in the codex, thus I think it was assumed that they would be one handed due to the way the model looks.

 

(it's also interesting to not the C'Tan Phase Blade doesn't have a handidness either, so it might not even be a one handed weapon to work alongisde the NS anyway...).

The Ctan phase sword is a special close combat weapon. Special close combat weapon + 1 handed weapons = +1 attack bonus, unless stated otherwise, per the two weapon section in 5th edition, if I recall correctly? Now, if the FAQ stating the NS was a 1 handed weapon did not exist, then you would get no bonus attack, regardless of how the model looks, because you must have a rule stating something is a 1 handed weapon for it to count as such.

[Seahawk]

IE, in the current space marine book, if Storm Bolters are not defined as 1 handed weapons, then they are not.

They're not defined as anything other than Assault-class ranged weapons, as that's all there is needed. According to the rulebook (and everyone should read the whole thing, not just parts), you'll find that Assault class guns don't give a bonus attack. The only ones that do are Pistol class guns and any exceptions.

 

It's such an easy concept. Where is the problem anymore?

[bystrom]

Handedness for close combat weapons:

Under the Fighting with Two Single-handed Weapons, it describes what bonuses you get for having two single-handed weapons:

Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations.

It then notes that two-handed weapons cannot be used with other weapons. What isn't noted is whether, say a chainsword is one-handed or what-not-handed. Its only stated that pistols count as one-handed close combat weapons (in close combat). Therefore chainswords (not one-handed) do not give +1 A when coupled with a Pistol? This per the same reason as Praeger stated:

Being two handed or more or less does not matter.

 

What DOES matter is this - do the rules for the weapon grant him an extra atack, say that the weapon counts as a single handed CCW or a pistol? if not then no extra attack. Simple as that.

[Seahawk]

Therefore chainswords (not one-handed) do not give +1 A when coupled with a Pistol

It's best to read all parts of a book before assuming things incorrectly.

 

"Both chainswords and combat blades are close combat weapons..." C:SM pg 97

(Under the Normal Close Combat Weapons headline): "Weapons like chainswords...combat blades, etc (also including PISTOLS, but not any other ranged weapon classification)"

"Two normal close combat weapons: These models gain one bonus attack (see page 37)"

"Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 attack." BRB pg 37

 

Clearly, a chainsword is a close combat weapon, and as defined by the book that means it's single-handed unless otherwise specified.

 

Now they also say that a rifle butt (the crux of the topic) is a normal close combat weapon. Upon further reading you also find out it is a two-handed close combat weapon, and thus cannot be combined with a one-handed weapon to get +1 attack. That right there should end ANY argument over using a rifle (bolter, storm bolter, whatever), not to mention the fact that on pages 28 and 29 (that people are still ignoring) it only says PISTOLS can be used as a close combat weapon in the assault phase, not any other classification of ranged weapon.

[DevianID]

it only says PISTOLS can be used as a close combat weapon in the assault phase, not any other classification of ranged weapon.

But surely if a weapon has a rule that classifies it as both a shooting weapon and a one or two handed close combat weapon, then it can be used in the assault phase normally. We are more interested in weapons that do not have such a classification, aka storm bolters.

 

Also, the rifle butt is a good point, but storm bolters have no rule that classifies them as rifles or having rifle butts.

[Seahawk]

It doesn't matter. You're still ignoring pgs 28 and 29, which only say that Pistols can be used in close combat. No other ranged weapon has that distinction. Only Pistols are counted as Normal Close Combat Weapons in close combat, not any other ranged weapon. Since stormbolters don't have the distinction, they don't get the special rule, simple as that.

 

 

Follow this line of thought, one that could be used to conclude that a stormbolter is a rifle. Not airtight, but close:

 

- "Rapid fire weapons are very common and usually come in the form of semi-automatic rifles."

- A boltgun is a rapid fire weapon (not to mention it has a stock!). It is a rifle.

- "A storm bolter resembles two bolters attached side-by-side." It is two squished together rifles. A rifle (like a monkey) has a butt, ie the rear end of it.

- Rifle butts are two-handed close combat weapons.

[Agrab]

rereading this there are two ways to use it

 

1) All single handed weapons, save the ones listed (PF, PW, etc.) give a +1 if you have more than 1. As there is no listing in new codexs as to what is single or not, there is more of an issue here and anything not listed as double must count

 

2) As pistols are said GENERALLY as single, unless they are listed as such they do not count

 

see the problem with the new rules here?

[Seahawk]

As there is no listing in new codexs as to what is single or not, there is more of an issue here and anything not listed as double must count

They don't need to list what is single handed or not. Everything that is required about guns is on pages 28 and 29 of the BRB...why reprint such info in every codex, especially with today's economy? :(

 

As pistols are said GENERALLY as single, unless they are listed as such they do not count

Very incorrect. ALL Pistols are clearly labeled as Pistols. They'll say, after the Range, Strength, and AP value such a thing as Pistol, Assault, Rapid Fire, etc and a number. Pistols are always Pistols. Pistols are always normal (ie, single-handed) close combat weapons. There isn't a problem with the current rules.

[Agrab]

As there is no listing in new codexs as to what is single or not, there is more of an issue here and anything not listed as double must count

They don't need to list what is single handed or not. Everything that is required about guns is on pages 28 and 29 of the BRB...why reprint such info in every codex, especially with today's economy? :(

 

As pistols are said GENERALLY as single, unless they are listed as such they do not count

Very incorrect. ALL Pistols are clearly labeled as Pistols. They'll say, after the Range, Strength, and AP value such a thing as Pistol, Assault, Rapid Fire, etc and a number. Pistols are always Pistols. Pistols are always normal (ie, single-handed) close combat weapons. There isn't a problem with the current rules.

 

hmmm, didn't see that page, good call

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Why did GW clarify in their FAQ that the neural shredder is one-handed then? It makes no difference to its use as a ranged weapon (it's a template weapon), but it would matter in close-combat (because the phase sword is the other weapon the Callidus has).

 

The progression (as far as I can tell) is as follows;

 

1. Any weapon can be used in close-combat (yes, even ranged weapons)

2. Some weapons are only used in close-combat

3. Some weapons grant bonuses in close-combat (but they don't have to be solely a 'close-combat weapon' to do so)

4. Handedness does not matter for shooting purposes, but does matter in close-combat

5. If a model has 2 single-handed weapons, it gets +1A in close-combat (regardless of whether they are ranged or close-combat weapons)

6. The 'pistol' classification covers most cases, but there are a few single-handed ranged weapons (neural shredder etc)

6. A two-handed weapon can't ever be combined with another weapon for +1A (unless the codex states otherwise ie 'True Grit')

7. Unless specified by the codex or FAQ, weapons are assumed to be two-handed (for the purposes of close-combat, as for shooting purposes it doesn't matter)