Stormbolters

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You might want to clarify that. Or you've given the NS the extra attack. msn-wink.gif

 

I think Prager's agreeing with me, mate.

Show me the wargear entry, in any book, for a Rifle Butt and I'll give you that example. There is *nothing* to suggest all weapons are two handed if not stated.

 

:tu: Ah, the good old red herring.

 

Go back to what I posted earlier. I already explained the logical step between 'normal close-combat weapon' and 'two-handed close-combat weapon'.

 

All the in game 2 handed wepaons explicity state that. Eviscerators, Relic Blades, etc.

 

No, all two-handed close-combat weapons (ie, weapons that can only ever be used in close-combat) are stated as such. GW doesn't bother telling us for ranged weapons, because we're meant to assume they're two-handed (as I have already explained).

So I'll posit the actual only assumption is that any weapon is single handed, unless otherwise noted.

 

That has more logical rules backing than a bit of fluff aobut a non existant weapon (the rifle butt).

 

If you go back to my previous quotations, you'll see how it works. I'm not repeating myself.

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL! Maybe I'm misunderstanding Praegers earlier posts then. :confused:

 

Unless the rules for the weapon call it a CCW or pistol or SPECIFICLY stat it grants a bonus THEN IT DOES NOT MATER.

 

Your ealier agruement revolves around the Rifle Butt. Which is just a fluff example. Akin to Marines not getting an extra attack from being able to punch with both hands, or punch and kick at the same time.

 

We're not ment to assume anything in 40K. That's why there are rules. If the rules don't call you a CCW, you're not.

 

Pistols are specifically noted as counting as CCW, in the quoites you keep posting. No where are any other Ranged wepaons 'counted as' CCW. Only Pistols.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Your ealier agruement revolves around the Rifle Butt. Which is just a fluff example. Akin to Marines not getting an extra attack from being able to punch with both hands, or punch and kick at the same time.

 

It revolves around the classification of 'normal close-combat weapon', which covers a wide variety of weapons (both ranged and 'close-combat only'). It's the umbrella definition in the BRB for anything not defined as one of the 'special' close-combat weapons (either from the list in the BRB, which covers most of the other types, or something codex-specific). More importantly, in order to get the +1A attack bonus, you need two single-handed weapons. A weapon has to be defined as 'single-handed' therefore, in order to claim this bonus.

 

We're not ment to assume anything in 40K. That's why there are rules. If the rules don't call you a CCW, you're not.

 

But as the 'normal close-combat weapons' definition clearly explains, any weapon can be used in close-combat. What matters is whether it is defined as single-handed or not. If it's not defined clearly in the FAQ, codex or BRB (in order of supremacy) as single-handed, then it's safe to assume it's two-handed (thats the only other condition a weapon can be in close-combat, it's one or the other). As I said, go back to my previous BRB quotes and you'll see what I mean.

 

Pistols are specifically noted as counting as CCW, in the quoites you keep posting. No where are any other Ranged wepaons 'counted as' CCW. Only Pistols.

 

You are making the same mistake Seahawk made, which is to assume that the pistol entry is a restrictive definition. It's not, it's a classification of a ranged weapon that is specifically noted in the BRB as being single-handed in close-combat. It saves them having to define the various pistols in 40k as single-handed. It doesn't cover all ranged weapons, only pistols. The 'normal close-combat weapon' paragraph explains how to treat ranged weapons in close-combat ie they don't give any special bonuses (unless of course you have a FAQ or codex rule which does). You still use them (ie cracking the weapon over someones head), but you can't combine them with a single-handed close-combat weapon (because they're two-handed by default, as is every weapon not defined as 'single-handed'). The pistol is the exception, not the rule :P thats why they go out of their way to state it twice (remember guys, it's single-handed in close-combat, in case you missed that part in the earlier section about ranged weapons).

[Gentlemanloser]

It revolves around the classification of 'normal close-combat weapon', which covers a wide variety of weapons (both ranged and 'close-combat only').

 

There are no examples of other Ranged Weapons listed in the "Normal Close Combat Weapon" section. Only Pistols.

 

Rifle Butts aren't Ranged Weapons, nor are Bayonets. Notice it doesn't say Rifle, but hitting someone with what is essentially a wooden club.

 

But as the 'normal close-combat weapons' definition clearly explains, any weapon can be used in close-combat.

 

Sure, any weapon classed as a Normal Close Combat Weapon under its description can. Otherwise you're listing Gauntleted Hands, Boots and Heads as normal Close Combat Weapons, and everyone's got two one handed hands to use in CC.

 

See the problem here.

 

It's not everything. Not everythign can be used in CC.

 

The 'normal close-combat weapon' paragraph explains how to treat ranged weapons in close-combat.

 

No, it doesn't. Show just one none Pistol Ranged weapon mentiond there...

[gil galed]

Fluff wise they are being used in CC, game wise to, it just they give no bonus's, whats all the argument about?

 

on a fighting note guns irl are just as likely to be shot in close combat as they are to be swung, if you see 'the equivalent of' a khorne berserker running at you you waste them on full auto, you don't start running at them to try and stab um :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Here's an example that I hope helps.

 

Picture a Marine armed with only a bolter, and no other wargear.

 

Now, a Bolter is defined as a 2 Handed Weapon (Any Imperial Codex with an Armoury) that has a 'Pistol' Grip, which allows it to be, under specific circumstances, used as a 'Pistol' in close Combat. Or in other words, used as a Close Combat Weapon. This is allowed only with 'True Grit'.

 

The Bolter isn't a 'Rifle' and doesn't have a Stock.

 

For our Marine, if he doesn't have True Grit, when it comes to Assault, he has no weapon that he can use in Close Combat. He can still attack with his normal 'A' stat attacks. This can be realised in any way. He could be headbutting, punching, kicking, strangulating, swinging his Bolter, choking foes with its strap, bashing the Xenos scum with a piece of Terrain. Whatever.

 

Whatever he does, he's not using a Close Combat Weapon. As he doesn't have the CCW Wargear Entry (CSM) or a Chainsword/Combat blade (SM).

 

If our Marine above does have True Grit, he gets to use his 2 Handed Bolter with 1 Hand in CC. It is then 'counts as' a Pistol, which by the Core Rules 'counts as' a Close Combat Weapon (for clarity, the Marine still doesn't get the extra attack here, becuase he isn't armed with another 1 handed CCW).

 

Not every thing, or weapon can be used in Close Combat. Only those that in thier wargear entry 'count as' a Close Combat Weapon (Special or Normal), or those that are, or 'counts as' a Pistol class of Ranged Weapon.

 

That's all.

 

(As an aside, we *have* to assume all Normal Close Combat Weapons are 1 handed, unless stated, as otherwise the Sperahim Hand Flamers while they count as two Close Combat Weapons aren't defined as 1 handed and wouldn't therefore give +1 attack.)