How do you avoid banishment?

[Grey Mage]

So I have a friend who plays Khorne/Slaanesh demons. He has atleast one unit of all of the options available to those gods, including several demon princes etc with different options modeled. He usually draws with me against SWs, and wings against most of the marine armies in the area.

 

He cant seem to dent tau or Eldar. He drops in, we maneuver and rapidfire/bladestorm/pieplate/etc and his units go *Poof*. If he deploys to far away for us to do so he usually gets about one unit in five into close combat, the rest die from ranged fire.

 

So, how would you survive the onslaught? Noting that there are no Nurgly or Tzeentchi demons available.

[Captain Malachi]

More bloodcrushers, more speed. Put those two together and you get a decent chance of making in to combat.

 

(Note: It's just gone midnight, I'll make a more detailed post in the morning)

[DuskRaider]

It depends on the enemy list. I often play against Tau, but he only uses one Devilfish for transport, the rest of his Fire Warriors foot slog. I'll usuall pin him in a corner or side and give him no way to escape, and then just turn it into a slaughter house. With armies like that, get on them quick, take your losses from ranged, and charge in to take away their advantage. It's worked for me every time.

[Corpse.]

The toughest units to points ratio are units that have large bases (against blasts = fewer hit but higher chance of being hit) and multiple wounds (eternal warrior)..

 

Nurglings, blood crushers, princes/greater daemons in the first wave and he'll live to summon the troops and other less durable stuff. Or run lots of small units to balance out the large units and equally distribute the large and small in two different waves, having as many as possible arrive in the first wave so you overwhelm his special first free round of shooting. Or, you run with tons of guns yourself and weaken him in a certain area where you drop down. Or you go with the last resort, and deploy lots of fast(beast/flying/fleet) stuff all over the table and hang him up while everything else arrives...

 

Wounds amassing // heavy numbers // shooty shiny // quick divide and conquor. A mix also works, and using high armor save units to act as cover saves to the lesser save munsters is also a tactic to employ. The odd chance the other half of the wave doesnt work, may imply that you should try lots of one style, or a mix of two (preferably not mixing the numbers/low number unit split)

[tastytaste]

When I win with me Daemons it is usually because I pick a flank and stick with it. Your job is isolate their targets now allow them to isolate yours. Stagger your more important units behind other units for cover on that first round if are not too messed up with scatter. Make a big squad and put an icon in you will need it for later turns. Daemons work best when going across the board as a tide together. It will force him to commit something and bring you closer to him. The real problem is how mech are the armies you are facing if they are really mech you need to take stuff that can pop them especially because they will be moving usually always 12 around the place.

[Infidel]

Against eldars and tau the grinders will bite the dust before they have a chance to say boo.

 

Without the Tzeentch fire support means that you need to DS very aggresively. Chances are if they have a heavy gunline then they wont have many infiltrators. Both KoS and BT can reach enemy line quite quickly as do the princes. Slap a mark (khorne if you just want to kill things, and slaanesh if you want to fight eldars in CC) might and iron hide on them and send them in first turn.

 

KoS has a 3D6" Hit and run, 6" Movement, D6" Run and 6" Fleet assault, giving them a maximum of 36" threat range, and fiends can do 48". Put all of your GDs and princes on the first wave and your elites and troops in wave 2. DS aggressively so you maximise your chance of assaulting on the 2nd or 3rd turn and with so many things that will mulch em right in their face, the opponent will have a tough time picking out what to shoot. Even if themy manage to drop one or 2 MCs the rest will connect and whatever they hit will die. Once you're in CC, then it's game. A slannesh/khorne army will destroy anything in melee and with the added effectiveness of ping-pong slanneshi force you can be sure to have your boys always in combat to avoid being shot at.

 

Keep in mind, the Pavane can prevent enemy heavy weapon from firing.

[==Me==]

You need speed to fight off a fast mech army. Make no mistake, you're at a huge disadvantage here.

 

Bloodcrushers mean nothing to mechdar and mech Tau, they can ignore them all game. Fiends and Flamers shine here. BT or KoS can chase down big stuff as well, as would Tzeralds or Sheralds in chariots, Horrors can do some dakka, Bletters can do little but draw fire, Furies and Screamers have the speed to close quickly, and DPs/Grinders have enough speed/toughness/dakka to fight off.

 

You have to be aware of his speed, he can mount up, zoom 24" and hit you from an entirely different angle. You have to try and trap them and lay hands on their vehicles. Hitting on a 4+ or 6+ renders Screamers practically useless, so you have to go for massed attacks with moderate S and rending (Fiends).

[I AM THE AWESOME]

What ==He== said, but also if they aren't running Mech, things are going to be much, much easier.

[Captain Malachi]

Right, I'm back! Unfortunately everything I was going to say has already been said, so never mind.....

[Infidel]

The OP stated that he's only got Slaanesh and Khorne troops, i thought we're working in the confines of that? Otherwise, flamers, flamers, flamers. These babies will wipe their footslogging firewarriors off the board by the handfuls.

 

EDIT:

Another possibility is to put an icon on the sherald and use it to drop blood crushers on the enemy. Yes, the enemy can just pack up in their transport and move 12" away and it's unlikely for you to catch them, but that's probably the only way to bring crushers into combat. Remember, breath and gaze are avaliable on every daemon princes so the drop and breath tactic still works (to an extent) in a pure slaanesh/khorne list

[Grey Mage]

The OP stated that he's only got Slaanesh and Khorne troops, i thought we're working in the confines of that? Otherwise, flamers, flamers, flamers. These babies will wipe their footslogging firewarriors off the board by the handfuls.

 

EDIT:

Another possibility is to put an icon on the sherald and use it to drop blood crushers on the enemy. Yes, the enemy can just pack up in their transport and move 12" away and it's unlikely for you to catch them, but that's probably the only way to bring crushers into combat. Remember, breath and gaze are avaliable on every daemon princes so the drop and breath tactic still works (to an extent) in a pure slaanesh/khorne list

 

You are correct, only Slaanesh and Khorne for my Friend Morrisson, and hes tried the icon.

 

What Ive seen happen, three times now, is that they come in, dont scatter, and then are shot all to hell. Ive bladestormed and starcannoned down his bloodcrushers myself. Maybe its just bad dice rolls, but Im looking for more. Please?

[Infidel]

If we can have a look at his list, then it'll definately help.

 

COVER WILL HELP, THEY ARE YOUR FRIENDS!

 

IMHO, the only thing in the khorne list that's worth taking against eldar is the bloodthirster. Slaanesh troops are a natural choice against the eldar because they have I6, rends and transfixing gaze. They can deal with anything that eldar has in CC, while the blood letters arnt really that great against eldar (they are MEQ killers).

 

As for the crusher icon bomb, if anything dont survive the shooting, get MORE. if 3 blood crushers dont survive the shooting, up the squad size to 4, hell, typical crusher list would have 2 squads of 4. Icons are still the only reliable way to get the crusher into combat and getting it on a mobile sherald means that you can get the crushers where they need to be much faster.

 

From what you said, he's got 1 squad of just about everything from the Khorne and Slaanesh list? I recommend that you drop the blood hounds, seekers and drop any redundant upgrades to reduce cost, and I'd imagine he'd have lots of points freed up. With these points he could put wings on his princes or get more crushers and/or fiends. Fine, you fired your starcannons and w/e on the crushers and congrats, you successfully wiped a unit off the board but the next turn anything that you didnt kill with hit your line with more ferocity than a small meteorite.

 

Just a heads up, his army will ALWAYS struggle against a heavy gunline due to the fact that it's a one-trick pony that does nothing but assault. He wont be able to realiably deal with armour, skimmers and eldar jetbikes. It's the innate restriction of the any non-tzeentch list and there is nothing we could do about it. Assuming the players are both very competent, some list just can not be beaten unless with stupid amounts of good dice-roll.

[Grey Mage]

Well lets see... he often runs this at 1750:

 

Note: He does no unit upgrades, save a shooting attack on his daemonette champions. He feels icons are a waste, and rending on a hellblade is redundant. No musicians either, though he has the models for all three in case he wants to turn them into a fantasy army.

 

 

Bloodthirster... gives it extra strength as I recall. Maybe one other gift, but it eludes me. Not the shooting attack normally though.

1 Herald of Khorne... iron body? and 1 or 2 other gifts. On a Juggernaught.

1 Herald of Slaanesh... a power that pulls enemy units towards you, and occaisionally another.

 

2x 18-20 bloodletters *though hes tried doing a few smaller squads, didnt like it*

2x 12-15 Daemonettes

 

4x Bloodcrusher.

3x Fiends of Slaanesh.

 

Soulgrinder.

Demon Prince 1-2. Usually one is khorne, one is slaanesh.

If he doesnt run a second demon prince he usually puts in another unit of bloodletters or daemonettes.

 

He used to run hounds, but only has five of them+karanak. And of course my LGS had a dillhole in charge of 40k tournaments, and outlawed all special characters, even unit upgrades. So he stopped using them at all. As he put it "theyre not much different than bloodletters, and more expensive to buy so why bother".

 

Hes got 4 Soulgrinders, 2 slaanesh, 2 khorne, though Im told they dont have marks or anything, just fluff here. And hes got a good range of models for his demon princes, atleast four conversions and I think its six total. Hes got two each of the heralds, and a pair of Bloodthirsters, but no keeper of secrets... yet.

 

He really wished theyd bring in a model for the seekers of slaanesh, but isnt digging the old ones... which are also hard to find I gather.

[Infidel]

1. The lances will destroy the grinders so let's leave them at home.

 

2. Put the sherald on the chariot and give it might, iron hide icon and pavane.

 

3. Drop all the letters and with 640 pts he can get:

1 more units of 12 netts

9 more fiends, so he make 2 squads of 6

3 wings on the princes

all sherald upgrade

 

4. Make sure that the princes comes with might and iron hide and it's probably worthwhile to put the pavane on the slaanesh prince to make enemy infantry more vulnerable to assault and prevent heavy weapon from shooting. Also consider adding in some breath of chaos so at least he benefit from one of the best template weapon in the game.

 

5. Put the squads behind the monstrous creature so they benefit from cover saves.

 

Wave 1: Sherald, Bloodthirster, slaanesh DPs and fiends

Wave 2: All netts, crushers and Khorne DP

 

This alteration makes the army much faster and more lethal. The fiends are one of the fastest and best assault unit in the game and having 2 squads of 6 ensure that they will hit something regarldess of the opponent's firepower. More netts also means more speed and striking before most of the eldar unit and they dont waste power weapons attacks on pesky eldar saves. The wings on the princes also mean they'll see action much faster and are much more easily positioned. I wouldn't run any khorne princes against eldar.

 

The pavane will provide tactical advantage, making the footslogging squads more vulnerable to assults and stops heavy weapons from firing. There is always room for improvement and i'm by no means the authority on this matter, just what i think i'd do in his shoes.

[Grey Mage]

Does Pavane of slaanesh mean the squad counts as moving in its turn?

 

I should have mentioned, all his princes are already winged. He says it inane to bring one without them.

 

Ill mention trying to get more fiends, but I believe thats all he has. Whats your reason for this change?

 

Ill also mention trying more daemonettes and fewer bloodletters, as a change of pace.

 

Also, what unit can get breath of chaos? I thought that was a tzeentch spell.

[Evil Homer]

Ill mention trying to get more fiends, but I believe thats all he has. Whats your reason for this change?

 

Fiends have the movement to run down skimmers and the volume of attacks at decent strength to ensure hits even when needing 6's.

 

Also, what unit can get breath of chaos? I thought that was a tzeentch spell.

Breath is neutral, every demon prince has access to it, flamers, skarbrand, and I think several other units as well.

[==Me==]

Fiends, Fiends, and more Fiends.

[Infidel]

Does Pavane of slaanesh mean the squad counts as moving in its turn?

That's a good question, since lash was introduced our ruling had always been that if the unit had moved at all for any reason, then it's considered to have moved and cant fire heavy weapon. Might want to check that

 

I should have mentioned, all his princes are already winged. He says it inane to bring one without them.

Skarbrand. Need i say more? So with that point, drop both of your herald HQ and get this guy and a Keeper of Secret (or keep the thirster if you prefer, but having a GD from both faction in a mixed army just feels more themed). This is a special Bloodthirster character that WILL double the combat effictiveness of all of your fast slaanesh troops. Refer to the daemon HQreview for more info but he is, in a nutshell, a buffed thirster that has fleet instead of wing, has breath as shooting attack and has a special ability that makes everyone in 24" re-roll failed rolls to hit (including the rolls to hit vehicles).

 

Ill mention trying to get more fiends, but I believe thats all he has. Whats your reason for this change?

Your initial complaint was that his army couldnt make it to the enemy, so here's you answer. Fiends can stay in combat for the entire game and the sheer volume of attacks at S5, I5 and rending will dice anything in the eldar army and their assault range also mean that you can catch any vehicle even when they're on the run. If enemy's gunline ignore them, then they will hit HARD, if they do focus on them, then the thirsters and princes will make it to their line. They can only take out so much with their guns.

 

Ill also mention trying more daemonettes and fewer bloodletters, as a change of pace.

Yep, their high I will ensure that they strike first (or simultaneously) and having grenades mean that they can effectively charge into gunners in cover, and rending meaning that they can also effectively deal with wraithlords.

 

Also, what unit can get breath of chaos? I thought that was a tzeentch spell.

They come standard on all princes as a neutral power and they are the only in a khorne and slaanesh list that can take them (and skarbrand). The Slaanesh herald has the option to get daemonic gaze, which is a S5 AP3 3-shot assault weapon that will reliably kill MEQs. I'd recommend running 3 buffed Slaanesh prince (Wings, Might, Iron Hide, Pavane, Breath and Musk) if he's got the points to spare, although I'm feeling that we're pushing beyond the 1750 mark as it is.

[Grey Mage]

Thanks for the advice guys, Im still listening, though right now Im writing down some notes to show him. Thanks for all your help so far!

[antique_nova]

So I have a friend who plays Khorne/Slaanesh demons. He has atleast one unit of all of the options available to those gods, including several demon princes etc with different options modeled. He usually draws with me against SWs, and wings against most of the marine armies in the area.

 

He cant seem to dent tau or Eldar. He drops in, we maneuver and rapidfire/bladestorm/pieplate/etc and his units go *Poof*. If he deploys to far away for us to do so he usually gets about one unit in five into close combat, the rest die from ranged fire.

 

So, how would you survive the onslaught? Noting that there are no Nurgly or Tzeentchi demons available.

 

i like to use changling but since we cant include him, i tend to use the slanneesh dancer for 100points with the skulltaker on a chariot followed by a soul grinder or two.

the slaneesh dancer to bunch tem up as much as possible and 2 sou grinders work nicely, if you have a l greater deamon of excess and use them pavarne pull 4-5 times in the shooting phase ( assuming the greater deamon can use it twice which i doubt ) them you can group them together and stand a very good chance of wiping most of his army out leaving his most heavy fortified units to be dealt with your monstrositys :).

thanks

antique_nova

[Infidel]

The great daemon can fire all of its weapons, but only once each, so you only get one shot with the pavane.

 

I guess the Masque is another thing that could be interesting, but she goes poof when shot by just about anything.

[Seahawk]

Ill mention trying to get more fiends, but I believe thats all he has. Whats your reason for this change?

They are abso-bloody-lutely fantastic for chasing down any unit, anywhere. Well, maybe not units that move 36", but still. If you provide them cover (which you should) they live so much longer. After that, something within 19-24" dies. Even just three of them left alive after shooting is typically enough to wipe some units off the table in assault. They're S5 renders, so nearly any vehicles get diced, and T3 infantry simply vanish.

 

T'heck with bloodcrushers I say. Too slow and useless.