Size of Legions

[Custodian Athiair]

basically what is said in the title:

i want to know how big the legions were in companies basically how many companies are there

and what are the sizes of the companies man wise

 

if the different legions have different numbers and sizes

 

i would preferable want to know about the Luna Wolves

 

but i would love to know about most of the legions

 

thanks

 

Athiair :jaw:

[Hrvat]

Oh my, that can of worms again :jaw:

 

I am really don't have the stamina tonight. You have the floor Marshal2Crusader :lol:

[Legatus]

Some Legions had a distinct organisation, but according to some sources about the Codex Astartes a 'Chapter' was an already comon type of organisation, so appearently some of the Legions were organised in Chapters of 1000 Marines, which in turn were probably organised into different companies. Some other Legions had "Great Companies", which were probably compareable to a "Chapter".

 

The Index Astartes Iron Warriros states that the Iron Warriors were organised into Great Companies of 1,000 men each, and that they were known to have up to 12 of these Great Companies during the Great Crusade. The Ultramarines were said to be the largest of all Legions, and could proibably be considered to have been at nearly full strength when they split into 24 Chapters, so they probably had 25,000 men at full strength.

A few sources speak of 10,000 strong Legions, but other sources speak of 100,000 strong Legions, with the Ultramarines having as much as 250,000 Marines at full strength. Some people prefer the latter because to them it would make more sense to have such big legions during the Great Crusade, some prefer the smaller Legion numbers because they better match the established fluff about the second founding and the Legion sizes at that time (Ultramarines 24k, Imperial Fists 3K, Space Wolves 2K etc...).

[Sons of Horus]

it's funny how many threads have the exact same title as this :P

 

anyway the fluff that indicates hundreds of thousands makes a lot more sense than the 10k fluff

i remember reading somewhere that during the Ullanor crusade Horus took 100,000 astartes and went straight for the centre world in the empire.

[Razhbad]

Well i'm not sure about this but i do know the Space Wolves had 13 companies

[Vodunius]

A few sources speak of 10,000 strong Legions, but other sources speak of 100,000 strong Legions,

 

I have to say I'm firmly in the 100,000 camp, however that said there is only one source for that: one of the earlier HH artbooks, and even the later HH artbooks seem to contradict that (3 or 4 mentions that Dorn dispatched the bulk of the Imperial Fists and then puts the number at 30,000 marines).

 

All other sources are either ten thousand or tens of thousands. (some people claim the tens is new, but its actually been around for a long time, its just that a lot of people have a habit of subconsciously chopping the s off)

 

Depending on the source Company and Great Company can be drastically different things. The Artbook that legions as 100,000 marines stated that there was a general system used throughout the legions was:

Company = 100 marines commanded by a Captain

Battalion = 5 companies commanded by a Lieutenant-Commander

"Regiment*" = 2 Battalions commanded by a Commander or Lord Commander

 

* Commonly known by other names such as Chapter, Wing or Great Company.

 

Although just to be ornery I prefer the 100,000 number from the artbooks, but with the Regimental system from WD126 which had 3 battalion of 3 companies.

[Hobo Willie]

As I've stated before, due to 2nd Founding numbers and whatnot, the Legions had to have been well under 100,000 each or you'd have to be comfortable with well over a million Astartes dying in the Horus Heresy.

 

At most there could not have been more than 23 Second Founding Chapters per Legion as the Ultramarines are stated as having the most and having that exact number. Most of the Loyalists are only listed as having 2-6 outside of that. While it isn't set in stone the exact number of 2nd Foundings per Legion outside of the Ultramarines, I'd say these are probably correct.

 

The short story "Call of the Lion" states that the Dark Angels had grown in size by 20,000 marines since Caliban had been discovered. Meaning that the Dark Angels current size at that time were 20,000 + Terran Dark Angels, each divided into thousand-strong Chapters. It is stated that if Terran Veterans had been given all the command roles, they would have been split up, destroying cohesive battle units they formed attempting to fill all the command roles of the new recruits. But still says nothing about the size of the Legion pre-influx.

 

This doesn't argue for or against 100,000 strong Legions as standard. As long as the new recruits plus the veteran Terrans were less than the pre-Heresy Ultramarines, who had to have had 24,000+ based on their post-heresy 2nd Founding numbers.

 

But suppose for a second that the Dark Angels did stand 100,000 strong. That means that according the fluff, ~50,000 Astartes were on Caliban with Luther when the Lion showed up with the other ~50,000. Supposing that the Dark Angel's supporting Luther suffered even a 75% casualty rate (which is fairly horrific), you'd still have 12,500 Fallen left. Which is double the amount of (known) Dark Angels and their 2nd Founding Brethren. And, that's 62.5 times the size of the Ravenwing and Deathwing combined, though obviously all the Fallen don't hang out together but that's some pretty daunting numbers, especially since they are all Astartes.

 

Another issue is that, according to current fluff, the Night Lords didn't truly participate in the Horus Heresy outside of the Istvaan V Dropsite Massacres, where they assuredly didn't take heavy casualties. They went around committing genocides against worlds in the Eastern Fringe. That means 100,000 (and maybe even more, if they were divergent) Night Lords Astartes survived the Heresy, which based on the 2nd Founding numbers, easily outnumbers the Loyalist Astartes 2:1, unless they all had around 20 and the numbers just aren't listed. Unlikely, but possible.

 

Or that the Iron Hands, who only lost their veteran companies on Istvaan and then retreated to Medusa to mourn their Primarch's death. If they had a standard (or even half the standard size of a Legion), they should have had far more than the Ultramarine's in 2nd Founding Chapters, but they did not.

 

Due to the above, I would say that the Legions were tens of thousands strong in the upper spectrum of size, but none would be hundreds of thousands strong. I would argue that as a nice round starting figure, all twenty Legions left Terra at the start of the Great Crusade with 10,000 Astartes in each (excepting the Emperor's Children) and the grew or shrank based on their Primarch and their new homeworld.

[Marshal Rohr]

Or that fluff states 250,000 marines belonged to the Ultramarines. You can have big and small Legions.

 

Pre-Heresy had three standout sizes.

 

Chapter, Great Company, Company.

 

Chapters were made of companies and equaled around 1000 marines. Astelan commands a Chapter. Ultramarines used Chapters made of 100 man companies.

 

Great Companies were around 1000 warriors. Iron Warriors used Great Companies.

 

Companies were fro 100-300 Warriors. Luna Wolves used these at 300 man sizes.

 

So going from that I would say IF given their nature, would use 300 man companies similar to the Luna Wolves, as in Mechanicum it talks about Sigismund taking 4 companies to Mars and having around 1000 Astartes. It would give them around 150,000 bodies to defend the palace which sounds about right for something of that magnitude.

 

 

It is impossible to conquer the galaxy with 20 Legions of 30,000. That is 600,000 men. No where near enough for the massive deployments we hear about on every other planet to take place. The Luna Wolves use 300 man companies, because it take 6 Stormbirds holding 50 Marines to deploy the entire 10th Company, as stated in Horus Rising. While I doubt that all of the Legions were number 30,000 or less, I believe 'some' might have been 30,000 our less.

 

Legions know having been mentioned as large:

Ultramarines-mentioned as being THE LARGEST

Luna Wolves- mentioned as being one of the largest

Imperial Fists

Word Bearers- Had 34 Companies, even at 100 men, that still would make them bigger than your propsed Ultramarines

World Eaters-mentions there large numbers in GiF

 

 

Medium to Small Legions

Dark Angels-likely Medium Astelan says they grew by 20,000, so even if they started off at 10,000 they would be as big as the Ultras

Emperor's Children-horrible accident at the inception

Salamanders- Smallest Legion, if they clear 10,000 I would be skeptical

Raven Guard

Iron Hands-I can remember somewhere where 10,000 was estimated

Iron Warriors

White Scars

Alpha Legion

Thousand Sons-I believe they started off with 1000 ad grew from there

Space Wolves

Death Guard-Salamander's small

Blood Angels

Night Lords

 

 

If this is the case it would support both our arguments that Legions were approximately around 30,000 or so, but some where huge. This would provide for the conquest of the galaxy AND the statements about Legion sizes to remain correct and not exclusive.

[Sons of Horus]

@hobo willie: actually it does make a lot of sense that hundreds of thousands of Astartes died during the Heresy. in fact i wouldn't be surprised it it were millions that died. remember that during the Great Crusade the Astartes were serving like armies and not just shock troops. they had to be A LOT.

[Legatus]

actually it does make a lot of sense that hundreds of thousands of Astartes died during the Heresy. in fact i wouldn't be surprised it it were millions that died.

It is not the amount of Marines that dies that would be a problem, it would be the percentage.

 

If the Ultramarines had 25,000 Marines at the end of the scouring, that means that during the heresy and the scouring they had lost 90% of their strength, if they would have started with a full strength of 250,000. Not only would that have been quite a noteworthy fact to mention in their background, but the background usually suggests the exact opposite, that during the scouring recruitment from Ultramar was so effective that they grew and soon accounted for more than half of the imperiums Marines.

 

If the Imperial Fists had 100,000 men but ended up with 3,000, that means they had lost 97% of their strength. At that point the Imperial Fists Legion could have pretty much been described as having been wiped out during the battle for the palace. If they would have had a full strength of 10,000 they would merely have lost 70% of their strength, which would still be desasterous, but not quite the exitus.

 

I also disagree (as I have in earlier topics) that Legions of 10,000 (I don't even need 30k) would not be able to perform during the great crusade. If a single Chapter of today can liberate a world on their own, or even just a few companies of a Chapter, as some stories suggest, then 10,000 Marines accompanied by millions of Guardsmen and a few Titans could do so at a much faster rate.

[Simonius]

I think it is obvious that the various fluff sources can be contradictory on this topic (and many others!), Personally I believe that there was a great variety in the overall size of each legion, from the smallest (Salanmanders and Space Wolves?) under 10000 at all times, through the medium sized ones - Dark Angels, Word Bearers - between 10-40K, to the larger ones like Luna Wolves at up to 100K. The Ultramarines are cited as something of a special case due both to the nature of their recruitment from a series of worlds inan ordered, organised process and also to the way they conquered worlds during the crusade, where it is often quoted that they took fewer losses because they didn't often do the total war thing and minimised damage and casualties along the way.

 

These two things combined perhaps point to fewer combat lossess than oher legions, and a higher recruitment rate than them too - then they become the biggest legion and stay that way even through the casuallties of the Crusade and the Scouring - at the end of which we know they created 23 other successor chapters so there were a minimum of 24K in the end, but I suspect many more pre-Calth when they would have been at their largest.

 

If the fluff in Tales of Heresy is canon about the size of the DA, we know they must have been at least bigger than them, and so are at least 40-50K.

[Vodunius]

If the Imperial Fists had 100,000 men but ended up with 3,000, that means they had lost 97% of their strength. At that point the Imperial Fists Legion could have pretty much been described as having been wiped out during the battle for the palace. If they would have had a full strength of 10,000 they would merely have lost 70% of their strength, which would still be desasterous, but not quite the exitus.

 

And therein lies the heart of the issue: many 40k players think the Heresy consisted of a handfull of named battles and nothing more.

 

The Imperial Fists did not have 3,000 marines left after the Siege of Terra, they had 3,000 marines left when the legion was split almost a decade later: AFTER the legion had spent almost a decade besieging Iron Warrior garrisons across the Imperium, and after the survivors of those campaigns had been all but wiped out in the Iron Cage.

[Simonius]

And therein lies the heart of the issue: many 40k players think the Heresy consisted of a handfull of named battles and nothing more.

 

The Imperial Fists did not have 3,000 marines left after the Siege of Terra, they had 3,000 marines left when the legion was split almost a decade later: AFTER the legion had spent almost a decade besieging Iron Warrior garrisons across the Imperium, and after the survivors of those campaigns had been all but wiped out in the Iron Cage.

 

 

Indeed.

 

The Ultramarines are also a prime example of this. Collected Visions states that 75% of their fleet was wiped out in the opening salvos of the Battle of Calth - fortunately most of the marines were on the surface, but it also states that until the intervention of Guilliman himself these were unco-ordinated and isolated from each other and generally getting a good kicking from the Word Bearers. Yes they eventually won out but we have no written ideas of the casualty figures. They also have a couple of other named encounters during the Heresy (can't remember the names at present).

 

It is also widely quoted that the UMs came out of the Heresy relatively unscathed. Now we know the 24K at the second founding, but this is after the Heresy and the Scouring. Does the Scouring count as part of the Heresy or is it a seperate "event"?

 

It is conceivable then that the UMs had far greater casualties in this period than in the Heresy itself - again they are oft quoted as being the ones largely holding the Imperium together in this period - even with their super recruitment.

 

Relatively unscathed would be put truly into context if Legions like the Fists were at 70-90% casualty rates. After all the DA were supposedly split 50/50 (a 50% casualty rate) by the divide at Caliban (nevermind any other battles) and are not noted anywhere to my knowledge as having suffered more greatly than other legions.

 

Lets speculate on the Smurfs. The UMs suffer sizeable casualties at Calth, caught unawares. They start with the 250K mentioned in Visions, and lose say 25% at Calth - down to 185K. They head to Terra and lose a few more on the way during the Heresy period proper. Lets call it another 5K. So now at 180K, the Scouring begins. Guilliman spreads his marines out all over the Galaxy fighting pretty constantly - even more so than normal Crusade operations - for however long the Scouring lasts (I've heard varied accounts between 7-20 years). The UMs are at the heart of this relentless campaigning, its not inconceivable that a further 155K+ are lost - could be as few as 8K per annum if its a 20 year period.

 

At the end of this they are left with around 24-25K (a tenth of their original strength), enough to form 23 successors - presumably enough true veterans (got to allow for recruitment) to fit out 23 1st companies and substantially more vets kept back for the UM Chapter themselves. Additionally there's going to be those "extras" of commanders and retinues etc. that mean no Chapter is 1000 strong, but more.

 

Back to the original questions on company sizes etc. Its seems that many Legions already had "standard" companies of 100 marines, and Chapters of 1000. Beyond that it varied. Are the Captains mentioned in the novels always company captains or chapter commanders - certainly in terms of influence within the Legion and their experience/prowess etc. it strikes me that many of our major players are more akin to 40K chapter masters than company captains, with an extra rank of Lord Commander also then inserted between these guys and the respective Primarchs. It sdoes vary but many do appear to be quite codexified (is that a word?) already up from squad level.

 

Incidentally I've just had a thought - very dangerous - what about the UM recruitment now. I mean, I know that the whole process of recruiting/creating a space marine was slowed down after the Heresy, but does Ultramar now produce more recruits than the Smurfs need? And if so do they let other successor Chapters take some?

 

Sorry to go on so long - but I'm off work today having had a tooth removed (probably the most unpleasant experience of my incipient middle age thus far!)

[Legatus]

And therein lies the heart of the issue: many 40k players think the Heresy consisted of a handfull of named battles and nothing more.

 

The Imperial Fists did not have 3,000 marines left after the Siege of Terra, they had 3,000 marines left when the legion was split almost a decade later: AFTER the legion had spent almost a decade besieging Iron Warrior garrisons across the Imperium, and after the survivors of those campaigns had been all but wiped out in the Iron Cage.

Well, thete is a distinct lack of any fluff that would suggest that the Legions were further depleted during the scouring, or that they suffered any significant amount of casualties during that time. One exception would be the Iron Cage incident for the Imperial Fists. Another would be the Ultramarines, who are said to during the scouring have grown in strength from what they had lost during the heresy.

 

It is also widely quoted that the UMs came out of the Heresy relatively unscathed. Now we know the 24K at the second founding, but this is after the Heresy and the Scouring. Does the Scouring count as part of the Heresy or is it a seperate "event"?

 

It is conceivable then that the UMs had far greater casualties in this period than in the Heresy itself - again they are oft quoted as being the ones largely holding the Imperium together in this period - even with their super recruitment.

 

Relatively unscathed would be put truly into context if Legions like the Fists were at 70-90% casualty rates. After all the DA were supposedly split 50/50 (a 50% casualty rate) by the divide at Caliban (nevermind any other battles) and are not noted anywhere to my knowledge as having suffered more greatly than other legions.

 

Lets speculate on the Smurfs. The UMs suffer sizeable casualties at Calth, caught unawares. They start with the 250K mentioned in Visions, and lose say 25% at Calth - down to 185K. They head to Terra and lose a few more on the way during the Heresy period proper. Lets call it another 5K. So now at 180K, the Scouring begins. Guilliman spreads his marines out all over the Galaxy fighting pretty constantly - even more so than normal Crusade operations - for however long the Scouring lasts (I've heard varied accounts between 7-20 years). The UMs are at the heart of this relentless campaigning, its not inconceivable that a further 155K+ are lost - could be as few as 8K per annum if its a 20 year period.

That is not what the background suggests, though.

 

"[Guilliman] dispatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every other Legion."

- Index Astartes Ultramarines

 

They are described to grow in numbers during that time, and nothing suggests that they had horrendous losses, which would have been quite a significant thing to mention.

[Simonius]

I was merely trying to speculate on what could have taken place. I'm not sold one way or the other on what the Legions numbers were - I tend to go for larger than 10K for most of them (30 - 40K IMHO), but the fluff is too contradictory at present for us to be certain.

 

I hadn't seen (or had missed - I'm getting old) the thing about UM numbers growing during the Scouring, so hadn't factored that in to my scenario. Although it is possible to suffer horrendous casualties and still grow during war - examine the numbers of troops in standing armies from the start of WW1 or 11 to the size of them at end, but that still proves the point I think you were making about the final 24-25K numbers.

 

That latest bit of fluff from Call of the Lion - the growing 20K bit for the Dark Angels - does hint that at least some were bigger than the 10K thing. If DA were 20-25K (maybe more - we don't know the Terran First Legion size), then the UMs must have been bigger, so the story seems to be leaning towards the bigger than 10K size. Although my understanding is that the Sallies, Wolves and Raven Guard were smaller than this even at their largest.