Scout rules FAQ

[greatcrusade08]

Scout rules FAQ

In this article I will aim to get to the bottom of all the grey area rules that come up when playing with an all scout army.
I have been playing an all scout army since the release of the 5th edition SM codex and all answers given are my own views on the particular subjects coming from discussions with my own opponents.
I generally use all the following in my own games with agreement from my opponents.

Does Telion confer stealth onto his scout squad?

NO and heres why:
Telion has the Stealth USR. This is described on Pg 76 BRB
"All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1."
Ive seen it argued that seeing as Telion is not his own unit and is an upgrade character the entire unit benefits if he is alive. Simply put he has stealth and following the stealth rule all of the units cover saves are improved by +1.
This relies on two assumptions, first being the rule confers to the squad, secondly that the term unit refers to the squad of scouts he is accompanied by.
The first is an unfounded assumption whilst the second is a misunderstanding of the rules:

There are no rules that governs upgrade characters but independent characters do not confer special rules to units they join, unless specifically stated in the USR or character profile, stealth is not mentioned as part of these exceptions.
I realise Telion isn’t an independant character, however have to use something as reference.
The USR description of Stealth uses "unit" rather than "model." This could just be a typical GW misuse of the English language as most of the time the rule applies to whole units.
Rulebook page 3 description of unit: (quote is clipped for relevance)
"A unit 'usually' consists of several models, it can also be a single, very large or monstrous creature, or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all of these things are referred to as 'units'. "
So this could imply that Telion for rules purposes at least counts as a unit on his own, which would in turn mean he doesn’t confer stealth onto his scout unit. Again I point out that nowhere does it specifically say that Telion DOES confer Stealth to his unit.
There is not, as far as I know, any set precedent for him to confer a bonus to the troops he is attached to without it being specifically mentioned in his rules.
In my experience the best way to deal with this is to treat it as its written, Telion has stealth, but the unit does not, thankfully the rulebook does have set rules for units with differing saving throws, this would be no different.

Do I need to purchase a cloak for Telion?

NO:
Telion already has the stealth rule as outlined above, he would not benefit from gaining the rule again.
Also since he is an upgrade character and has no choices for wargear you cant legally purchase one using the codex.

Are scout bikes covered by Mounted assault rule?

NO:
page 132 of the codex states "If your army includes a captain on space marine bike, space marine bike squads of at least 5 models may be taken as troops choices."
Scout bikes are not the same as space marine bikes, they are different units with dfferent uses and rules, and they are not included in the mounted assault special rule.
It says Space marine bike squads, not scout bike squads.
If you were using a bike army the bike squads can be taken as troops, and the fast attack slots they open up can then be used to take scout bikers instead.

Do Cerberus launchers’ leadership modifier stack?

YES
This question has a pretty clear answer, which is that they can stack,
The rulebook has already set the precedent for multiple modifiers with many examples, without any clear wording to suggest otherwise, these Cerberus launchers stack aswell.

If Sicarius confers scout abilities on a tactical squad, can they use a LSS?

NO:
Battle forged heroes rule on page 85 of the codex states "One tactical squad in an army that includes Sicarius can have one of the following rules at no additional cost: counter-attack, Infiltrate, Scout, or Tank hunters.
Scouts are a clearly defined unit, that has a unique stat line, wargear and armour, simply giving a tac squad the scout rule, doesn’t make them scouts.
A tactical squad is a tactical squad regardless of special rules, the Land speeder storm as outlined on page 75 of the codex clearly states it can carry ONLY scouts.

Can Scout bike sergeants take a grenade launcher?

NO:
Page 141 of the codex states "Up to three bikers may replace thier TL bolters with an astartes grenade launcher".
Sergeants and scouts are as different as veterans and apothecaries, both have seperate stat lines and each has its own upgrade options. Out of the sergeants own options none are to take a grenade launcher.
Also with his higher BS you would be getting a 'better' weapon for the same cost, this wouldnt make sense.
Since the veteran/apothecary argument has the same merits i follow the same reasoning that they are seperate entities and you cannot have the grenade launcher.

Can Scout sergeants take a heavy weapon?

NO:
Relevant rule on page 134 of the codex states "One scout may replace his boltgun with a heavy bolter ... or missile launcher".
The above argument can be used to clarify this same point, i would suggest that since the sergeants are the only individual that has access to plasma pistols, power weapons and combi-weapons, that the heavy weapon would be of better use on a regular scout anyway.

Do snipers force a pinning test for each wound caused?

NO:
In 4th edition it was one clearly one test per unit, in 5th the wording is a little more difficult to understand, but it does say one test for unsaved wounds, plural meaning the number of wounds has no effect on the number of tests needed to be made.
The emphasis on pinning weapon, is to show that you have to have a pinning weapon in order to cause a pinning test. Also as all firing is resolved simultaneously its hard to see why more than one test would be caused.
Since this ruling could drastically change the effectiveness of scout snipers, its hard to make any assumptions, regardless of the wording of the rule suggesting its once per weapon, its often better just to do one test per firing unit. This is a more difficult point to argue since both sides have merit, in this case i go for the more reasonable decision to prevent issues with my opponents:

Can Telion stack his wounds onto the same model?

NO:
Page 88 of the codex under EOV rule states " Wounds caused by Telion's shooting attacks are allocated by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player".
Unfortunately the rule doesnt say anything about negating the wound allocation rules as set out in the BRB, which says that you cannot place a second wound on a model unless every other model in the unit already has a wound. All that EOV lets us do is place wounds ourselves, NOT break placement rules.
This rule can cause some confusion as the rest of Telions unit may add enough firepower to give every model in the unit a wound, letting Telion 'stack his shooting on one model. However to solve this confusion i treat Telions attacks as special and allocate them before any other shooting, and would suggest this is the best way of dealing with this problem.

GC08

[waaanial00]

Just one question. Who is John Spencer and why is his authority important?

 

Wan

 

Edit: Instead of adding more stupidity to this forum I will apologise for the previous question. Upon rereading what GC08 said I realise my mistake. I assumed that John had pointed you to the GW questions rather than being the person who answered them (not reading the whole paragraph). Ooops doesnt cover this :D

 

Wan

[greatcrusade08]

Just to quote my own work

John Spencer: GW’s ask your question contact email is a good way to get a quick answer on these difficult questions, but any answers you get may not be fact, John Spencer the man who answers the emails is very accurate and consistent, but without a published FAQ from GW any answers he gives cannot hold much weight.

In this case his current opinion on the matter is that Telion does not confer stealth to his squad.

 

GC08

[Brother Gothard]

I take it we are not supposed to reopen these issues :D

 

Though, its funny, the way John answers both Telion questions suggests that he is trying to have it "both ways" by at first insisting that Telion is an Independent character, not a part of the unit, and then insisting that Telion is a part of the unit, not an independent character.

 

Which is it John, because clearly you cannot have it both ways.

 

There seem to be pretty clear "yes" or "no" answers to these. I dont actually see any of them, save perhaps the pinning question, as being truly divided.

 

I swear, GC08, if I had enough money I would start an all scout army. No fooling. Good effort, and great idea GC08!

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks man, you can discuss the issues to a point, the purpose here is to list the strongest arguments for each case, so people can make well informed decisions for thier own LGS or friendly games.

 

Please let me know if there are any more topics i havent yet covered, aslong as its scout related of course...

 

Thanks for the nod Brother Gothard, scouts are very cool, and despite what some say, i have seen them go from strength to strength on the B&C, hopefully due in some small part to my constant 'sermons' :)

 

GC08

[DevianID]

I wonder about the telion stealth versus buying a cloak thing. If an upgrade character has infiltrate or scout, does that mean his squad gains NO benefits from it? Upgrade characters are not independant characters, thus the unit would not lose the special rule. I think that the same should go for telion. Also, you are not supposed to be able to modify characters, aka in an army with mad dok which says any model in the army can buy cybork bodies for 5 pts, you are not allowed to buy cybork bodies for ghazghull despite him absolutely being a model in the army.

 

I have no issue playing by the rules, but here we have two conflicting rules (Telion's stealth not appling to unit when there is a very good case it should via the defination of stealth, and Telion must pay 3 points to give the unit stealth, even though as a named character he can not be modified himself) and the solution presented is to take the situation that is worse for Telion BOTH times. I think that this is an example of rules needing to be judged fair both ways.

 

Thus, I think its fair not to abuse Telion giving the whole unit stealth by saying he doesnt have to pay 3 points for the cloak. Because sadly the RAW that Telion must buy a cloak also says that the stealth special rule (which telion does have) grants the whole unit the bonus cover save, and while I have no problem with RAW, in fun games RAI for both friends playing is more important.

 

Or, simply as Brother Gothard puts it, dont try and have it both ways, either play by RAW and deal with the consequences or play by RAI and deal with the consequences.

[greatcrusade08]

My make a good point, but your on the same path as the point to this article, each topic is covered by arguments from both sides, which allows people to make thier own mind up, i then put down GW's un-official take on the matter and my own ideas on how to avoid the conflicts before they rise.

 

Your argument is well put and correct from a point of view, but its best to be completely informed about all arguments before making your case to your opponent, hence the FAQ's.

tbh paying 3 points so i dont have to argue with my opponent about rules is more than worth it. but then i dont normally use camo cloaks so its not that relevant to my scout armies.

 

Still its always good to talk these things through, it often helps clarify these points in our own minds.

 

GC08

[Brother Gothard]

Jamming beacons disrupt even friendly teleport homers.

 

So .. for the cerberus launcher, we are saying that if two LSS's drop two units of scouts to assault the same unit, its Ld goes down by 4, not 2?

 

That is intense.

[greatcrusade08]

Jamming beacons disrupt even friendly teleport homers.

 

So .. for the cerberus launcher, we are saying that if two LSS's drop two units of scouts to assault the same unit, its Ld goes down by 4, not 2?

 

That is intense.

 

Yeah beacons disrupt ALL DS'ing troops, but more importantly Icons and the like dont work in its radius either :D

 

As for the cerberus launchers, you have the potential to take 3 LSS and reduce a units leadership by -6

 

GC08

[greatcrusade08]

Hmm found a problem, i phoned GW looking for thier ask your question phone number..

And apparently they dont run the service anymore....

 

So ill have to edit out the pertinent areas to show this.. no biggy,

 

anyone got anything they would like to add to this?

 

GC08

 

Edit: I have updated this article to include some questions that have arisen over the last few weeks

[Moghal]

I don't recall the exact wording, but the general rule I've seen in GW publications is that you cannot assume something from the absence of wording, you should only assume that what is explicitly written is the case: on that understanding, I'd determine that Telion is not an Independent Character, and therefore is an upgrade for a scout squad.

 

Given that, I'd take the wording of the 'Stealth' universal special rule to be that the unit gains the Stealth ability - it specifies 'unit' in the wording, and Telion has no capacity to enter play in any other fashion than as part of a unit.

 

Also, in support of the Scout Bikers aren't Space Marine Bikers, the rationale that they are opens up the prospect of being able to count a bike-mounted command squad as a troop choice as well, which I think is definitely not the intention of the rules. I think it's a shame that scout bikers can't be troops, and if someone asked for a house rule on it I'd be quick enough to agree, but as written (and as I believe is intended) I don't see it like that.

 

M.

[greatcrusade08]

Given that, I'd take the wording of the 'Stealth' universal special rule to be that the unit gains the Stealth ability - it specifies 'unit' in the wording, and Telion has no capacity to enter play in any other fashion than as part of a unit.

 

These arguments are why i wrote this article, i outline the arguments and show a compromise to avoid arguments... in this instance i would have to disagree with you:

As i discussed previously a unit is described as being many things including a SINGLE model i.e Telion is a single model and the term 'unit' is referring to him alone, also note the stealth rule wasnt written solely for him and most who benefit from it are squads of troops, hence the difficult wording..

Remember Unit does not mean Squad!

 

you cannot assume something from the absence of wording

Yet i ask why do you assume he grants stealth to the scouts, even though it states no where that this is the case!

The door swings both ways, but i think my argument is far more reasonable and hence more likely to be accepted by my opponents, and i can have carefree games :lol:

 

GC08

[Ryjak]

Overall, this is a good FAQ you've written from your own experience playing a Scout Army... I'm not sure if they way your wrote this article is the best way to do it, though.

 

At first, I didn't understand you were presenting the sides for both answers to the question, especially since you don't follow that convention for every question. While I certainly understand why you feel the need to present this, I don't think it's necessary. If I were your editor, I'd have you re-write the whole thing from a personal perspective, starting with an intro stating that you've played an all-Scout army for some time, here are the issues you've run into with your opponents, and this is how you handle them. For example:

 

Can Telion stack his wounds onto the same model?

 

I tried to do this once, but my opponent pointed out I still have to follow the normal rules for wound allocation, which is that each model must be allocated a wound before it can be allocated a 2nd. Since the rules don't cover WHEN Telion gets to allocate his wounds, I allocate any wounds he causes FIRST, before my opponent allocates the rest. This has been acceptable to everyone. I could also technically do it LAST, or even during, but then my opponent can control where Telions wounds can't go, and it leads to a lot of arguements I prefer to avoid.

 

Also wanted to throw out an "option" for Telion and Stealth:

 

The rules (5th Edition Space Marine Codex) state, for 50 points, "One Scout squad in the army may replace its Scout Sergeant with Sergeant Telion." Ok, no problem. The Scout Squad now consists of 4 Scouts and their listed stat line and special upgrade character Sergeant Telion and his listed stat line. Each model has the Scout Squad listed Wargear, and Telion replaces it with his listed wargear. Then we get to the Special Rules, and notice Telion's rules aren't the same rules as the Scout Sergeant he's replacing. Specifically, Telion does not have Combat Squad, but he does have Acute Senses and Stealth, plus two additional rules specific to Telion. Nothing in the rules specifically tells me how this works out.

 

I'm pretty sure the Squad doesn't loose Combat Squad just because Telion doesn't have it, likewise the squad shouldn't gain a special rule just because Sgt Telion does have it. Fortunately, for Acute Senses, the wording makes it pretty clear Telion gives it to his unit while he's alive, because he's a character.

 

So lets just ignore that and look at how Telion works with the unit options.

 

"Any model may replace his bolgun with:" doesn't apply, not because Telion is a character, but because he doesn't have a boltgun. Same for him getting a Heavy Bolter or missile Launcher. "The Scout Sergeant may replace..." & "The Scout Sergeant may take:" also don't apply, because we replaced the Scout Sergeant with Sergeant Telion. Now the last option is, "The squad may have camo cloaks... +3 pts per model" doesn't really tell you much, until you go to page 100 and read the rules for Camo Cloak, which is "A model wearing a camo cloak has the stealth universal special rule." So, what the last option really says is, "The squad may have the Stealth special rule for +3 points per model." So, it doesn't matter here if Telion has Stealth already or not; if the squad wants to get Stealth, you pay +3 per model in the squad, and Sergeant Telion is definately a model in the squad.

 

So, why does he have Stealth in the first place? Well, lets say for example purposes, the rule instead said "any model can get a camo cloak for +3 points." You could then get an 8-man squad, half of which uses the Stealth special rule. How would you work this out? Bad news is, you can't, because Stealth doesn't apply to models, it applies to units. So, every model in a unit must have Stealth for the unit to benifit from the Stealth special rule.

 

So it SEEMS the intent was for Telion to grant his unit Stealth, since the only way he can utilize his Stealth rule is if he's the only model left in the unit. However, RAI is an interpretation, while RAW is supposed to be concrete. It looks like, RAW, there's no point for Telion to have the Stealth rule.

 

Wow, I spent way too much time on that, and you probably didn't need to read it, but I think it's a clear breakdown of what RAW actually are for this specific case.

[greatcrusade08]

Overall, this is a good FAQ you've written from your own experience playing a Scout Army... I'm not sure if they way your wrote this article is the best way to do it, though.

 

At first, I didn't understand you were presenting the sides for both answers to the question, especially since you don't follow that convention for every question. While I certainly understand why you feel the need to present this, I don't think it's necessary. If I were your editor, I'd have you re-write the whole thing from a personal perspective, starting with an intro stating that you've played an all-Scout army for some time, here are the issues you've run into with your opponents, and this is how you handle them.

 

Actually thats quite a good idea.. i have considered removing the neutrality, but i tend to disagree with most people with certain rules and i didnt want to enrage any readers :tu:

Still a good writer finds a way round this so i may give it a go.... ill start tomorrow..

thanks bud

 

GC08

[greatcrusade08]

Hows this look guys?

 

Does Telion confer stealth onto his scout squad?

 

Telion has the Stealth USR. This is described on Pg 76 BRB

"All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1."

Ive seen it argued that seeing as Telion is not his own unit and is an upgrade character the entire unit benefits if he is alive. Simply put he has stealth and following the stealth rule all of the units cover saves are improved by +1.

This relies on two assumptions, first being the rule confers to the unit, secondly that the term unit refers to the squad of scouts he is accompanied by.

The first is an unfounded assumption whilst the second is a misunderstanding of the rules:

 

There are no rules that governs upgrade characters but independent characters do not confer special rules to units they join, unless specifically stated in the USR or character profile, stealth is not mentioned as part of these exceptions.

I realise Telion isn’t an independant character, however have to use something as reference.

The USR description of Stealth uses "unit" rather than "model." This could just be a typical GW misuse of the English language as most of the time the rule applies to whole units.

Rulebook page 3 description of unit: (quote is clipped for relevance)

"A unit 'usually' consists of several models, it can also be a single, very large or monstrous creature, or a lone hero. In the rules that follow all of these things are referred to as 'units'. "

So this could imply that Telion for rules purposes at least counts as a unit on his own, which would in turn mean he doesn’t confer stealth onto his scout unit. Again I point out that nowhere does it specifically say that Telion DOES confer Stealth to his unit.

There is not, as far as I know, any set precedent for him to confer a bonus to the troops he is attached to without it being specifically mentioned in his rules.

In my experience the best way to deal with this is to treat it as its written, Telion has stealth, but the unit does not, thankfully the rulebook does have set rules for units with differing saving throws, this would be no different.

[Ryjak]

Wow, tomorrow came fast today!

 

I think it's much easier to read that way... only change I have to suggest is to start with a simple answer to the question. Something like, "No. Here's why."

[greatcrusade08]

Wow, tomorrow came fast today!

;)

The wife was watching womens tv so i had some time ;)

 

I think it's much easier to read that way... only change I have to suggest is to start with a simple answer to the question. Something like, "No. Here's why."

Fair do's ill add that in

 

Thanks for your advice

Gc08

[Grey Mage]

As an argument for Telion NOT giving his scout squad the Stealth USV- look at Codex: Eldar. Each time an Exarch *read- upgrade character* has an ability that affects the squad each and every time it mentions that the squad gets it. They dont use the same wording each time, but it is in fact mentioned.

[greatcrusade08]

As an argument for Telion NOT giving his scout squad the Stealth USV- look at Codex: Eldar. Each time an Exarch *read- upgrade character* has an ability that affects the squad each and every time it mentions that the squad gets it. They dont use the same wording each time, but it is in fact mentioned.

 

Ah very helpful, thanks grey!

 

GC08

[brakkar]

Only problem i have with the way everyone seems to be seeing this is that Telion can not be an independant character. You cannot take just telion, he cannot join another unit, and he cannot leave the squad.

 

So, therefore, what an eldar codex says means little, but if you wanted to use it, then it should be the same. If their abilities can be used with their units then so can his. A double standard for upgrade characters isn't right no matter how you look at it. the only difference with stealth is that instead of writing that telion confers stealth on the unit they just used the universal rule which they are doing as much as they can from what i see.

 

I realize this isn't the popular answer and this just seems to be one of those rules that really gets under my skin. Every other ability he has other than the lone exception being Eye of Vengeance which specifically states that it's his wounds that can be allocated, can be used by the squad so why would you think stealth wouldn't as well.

 

If Telion was an independant character, then I would wholeheartedly agree with stealth not conferring, but he isn't and never can be.

[greatcrusade08]

So, therefore, what an eldar codex says means little, but if you wanted to use it, then it should be the same. If their abilities can be used with their units then so can his. A double standard for upgrade characters isn't right no matter how you look at it. the only difference with stealth is that instead of writing that telion confers stealth on the unit they just used the universal rule which they are doing as much as they can from what i see.

The stealth rule in the BRB does NOT state it confers to the squad, if you read what ive put you will see that the term unit can refer to a single model.. i realise he is accompanied by a squad but rules wise he is a singular figure... the thing about rules is you cant assume anything, you cant use A=B therefore B=C arguments... it has to be taken as its written!

Unit does not mean squad..

Telion has stealth, Stealth rule does nbot confer to the squad as it doens tsay this in any of the relevant rules, so The scout squad does NOT have stealth

 

I realize this isn't the popular answer and this just seems to be one of those rules that really gets under my skin. Every other ability he has other than the lone exception being Eye of Vengeance which specifically states that it's his wounds that can be allocated, can be used by the squad so why would you think stealth wouldn't as well.

3 rules that he alone uses over the squad off the top of my head (i dont have codex) are:

Eye of vengeance

Voice of experience and

Stealth

 

If Telion was an independant character, then I would wholeheartedly agree with stealth not conferring, but he isn't and never can be.

As there are no rules governing upgrade charcters then we have to use what little information we have, b ut use it as written.. again we cant make any assumptions... this is why its good to look at set precedants like the eldar... those rules are quite specific about conferring whereas this one mentions nothing.

 

If i still havent convinced you then your welcome to start a thread to further discuss the topic, or use the search function to find the previous hundred topics on the subject.. Ultimately it is a grey area for a reason and thats because people cant agree.. as for this article, this is just my opinions on the topics... opinions that have been agreed on by all my previous opponents.

 

GC08

[brakkar]

It's all good, not trying to be antagonistic, Just one of them things that gets under my skin. You make a good argument. Fortunately i haven't had any trouble with it here so i'm just not going to worry about it anymore unless it becomes one.

[greatcrusade08]

It's all good, not trying to be antagonistic, Just one of them things that gets under my skin. You make a good argument. Fortunately i haven't had any trouble with it here so i'm just not going to worry about it anymore unless it becomes one.

 

Thats fair, a naysmith can be good at times :)

 

GC08

[Gornall]

I have to agree with the consensus on Dakka (Gwar and his RAW friends) that he DOES confer stealth. He's an upgrade character (a Sarge) and I don't call my Sarges for my Tactical Squads their own units. However, it's a badly written rule/codex entry, so I can see the argument both ways.

[greatcrusade08]

Whatever arguments we use for these grey area rules must be reasonable/fair enough to explain to your opponents and be able to use.

Its no good saying he DOES confer stealth when

a : theres no rule that states this and

b : It potentially changes the game and the units effectiveness.

 

Its all about being fair to your opponent which is how i base alot of my personal decisions on these grey area rules.

 

GC08