Grey Knights > Chaos Daemons!

[Gentlemanloser]

But it finally hit home! And the Grey Knights reamin the premier anti Daemon force in the 40K Universe. B)

 

This has nothing to do with Mystics or the utterly broken Sanctuary, but just a rule change in 5th coupled with a Grey Knight Special Rule.

 

Assaulting through Difficult Terrain and Rites of Exorcism.

 

It's a joy to behold. The silly Flamers aside (my god I still hate those with a passion), the Chaos Daemons will mostly come seeking your blood in CC. And with Squads containing combinations of Power Armour Saves, FC and Power Weapons, or Rending, all with many attacks, they are (baring Deep Striking mishaps - Which Icons are invaluable in stopping) usually an unstoppable force that rolls through whatever unit you place in front of them.

 

Until they hit the Grey Knights. ;)

 

And while anyone can us cover to try to get the same effect, ours works so much better. ;)

 

If the Difficult Terrain roll doesn't stop them short, it makes them go at Initiative 1. Letting us get our own S6 hits in before they can usually decimate our expesnive squads and limit our return damage. And there's limited units that can have offensive grenades! You'll still have to watch out for (and pore a hell of a lot of Psycannon fire) into the ******* Daemon Prine of Nurgle though.

 

This small change gives us the upper hand in CC, and unless you face a mass of Flamers (*******), we hold the upper hand in shooting as well. Add in the usual anti Daemon gravy (Destroy Daemon, Sacred Insence) and a Pure Grey Knight force doesn't need to call on the OM Inquisitors and thier Mystics to lend a hand.

 

Now, if only they Daemons 'shooting' were actually Psychic Powers (And the Soul Grinder wasn't AV13)....

 

;)

[jeffersonian000]

Well, that's why we have Land Raiders; to kill those pesky 'Grinders and Nurgle-cult monstrosities.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't mind 'Grinders, it just narks me that they were given AV13 which puts them out of harms way to both our Psycannons and NFW. :)

 

As for LR versus DP of Nurgle. Mine get eaten all the time by them. They wing over and munch them in CC. You've got to keep the LR moving (for no auto hits) which limits it's offensive firepower. :)

[jeffersonian000]

Why would you let anything get into close combat with your 'Raider/s? If targets are far away, stay far away; if targets are near shock or back off as needed depending on what the 'Raider is carrying.

 

And yes, it is nice that our Rites work for us in this case by forcing a difficult terrain roll on charging daemons while at the same time dropping them to Initiative 1.

 

SJ

[number6]

Why would you let anything get into close combat with your 'Raider/s?

Well, considering that a flying daemon has an 18" move + charge distance, while a raider can move at most 12" -- and will usually have to navigate terrain as well to avoid dangerous terrain tests (something a jump pack model will almost never have to do) -- there's really nothing you can do if the daemon player insists upon whalloping your raiders with his daemon princes. All you can do is incorporate that single-mindedness into your tactical calculations for that game.

 

Not to mention that being forced to move your raider 12" in a slowly losing battle just to keep it alive wastes valuable shooting that most DH armies cannot afford to lose. Especially against daemons.

[Mal]

Which is why you take TWO raiders <_<

[jeffersonian000]

Yep.

[Uncle Mel]

No silly boy, you take three!

[Mal]

3 land raiders... that comes to 750 points... 2 GK tacs come to 550 before upgrades leaving 200 points for commander and unit/raider upgrades.... thats not a lot of room to work with....

 

you could do it I suppose... but I wouldn't like to.

[Gentlemanloser]

And then you face three Deamon Princes of Nurgle. ;)

 

I wouldn't Advise using LR versus Deamons in normal Games. You don't Need it to deliver PAGK or GKT into CC, and you don't really need the anti tank. Taking lots, or smaller units of Troops would serve you better.

 

3 Man GKT squads with two psycannons work wonders. And spread out in your deployment zone as much as possible, to take up as much space and deny 'safe' DSing points.

[Aidoneus]

3 land raiders... that comes to 750 points... 2 GK tacs come to 550 before upgrades leaving 200 points for commander and unit/raider upgrades.... thats not a lot of room to work with....

In a 1500pt game, sure. And I agree, at that point it's not worth taking 3. In 1750pts and up though, I like tri-raider lists. Two godhammers and a crusader, with a PAGK squad in each, can really lay the hurt on people! ;)

[revnow]

With good knowledge of an area's meta-game most Daemonhunter players should not be having trouble with Daemon Princes, either in Chaos lists or Daemons of Chaos. For 20 points, Sacred Incense and Grimoire allow any moderately sized GKT squad (4+ w/BC/GM) to take out any Daemon Prince while suffering acceptable (1-2) losses.

 

Crusaders are also built to take out DPs. The purpose of GK LRs is to deliver their cargo into battle while providing moderate fire support. If a Daemon Prince with wings wants to come to you, let them. All a Crusader loses moving 12" is the ability to fire the crappy DH Assault Cannon. This means that a single Crusader with GKT loadout has the potential to serious to lethal harm to a DP, Soul Grinder, and Daemon troop squad in any given turn, while still moving twelve inches and forcing 6s to hit in assault.

[jeffersonian000]

I concur with the above. I have no issues with Daemon Princes, only Obilterator spamming, which is not something I see much in my area.

 

SJ

[Lungboy]

3 land raiders... that comes to 750 points... 2 GK tacs come to 550 before upgrades leaving 200 points for commander and unit/raider upgrades

 

550 for 2 GK "tac" squads? Are you running 2 full 10 man squads? That seems a bit ott.

[Aidoneus]

3 land raiders... that comes to 750 points... 2 GK tacs come to 550 before upgrades leaving 200 points for commander and unit/raider upgrades

 

550 for 2 GK "tac" squads? Are you running 2 full 10 man squads? That seems a bit ott.

Half of 550 is 275. That'll buy you exactly 10 grey knights, or about 9 with 2 incinerators, or exactly 8 with two psycannons. It's perhaps a little more than most of us typically invest in each squad, but not by much.

[Lungboy]

3 land raiders... that comes to 750 points... 2 GK tacs come to 550 before upgrades leaving 200 points for commander and unit/raider upgrades

 

550 for 2 GK "tac" squads? Are you running 2 full 10 man squads? That seems a bit ott.

Half of 550 is 275. That'll buy you exactly 10 grey knights, or about 9 with 2 incinerators, or exactly 8 with two psycannons. It's perhaps a little more than most of us typically invest in each squad, but not by much.

 

 

Aye, he said unupgraded so that's 2 full squads of 10. As you say, most people (myself included) seem to run 7 or 8 max, with or without special weapons.

[revnow]

9 w/ 2 incinerators is my loadout.

[KaldCB]

I use 7 with 2 incinerators, and feel that 7 is enough to break most things when they are in raider and get to fire and assault.

[Aidoneus]

Back on topic though, the Rites rule is nice, true, but it won't make or break our army against daemons. Anyone else can simply sit in cover to produce the same effect; ours just gives us more freedom of movement. But as someone said, anything with blight grenades will ignore it, and I think daemonettes/mounted 'nettes count as having frags too.

 

Much more useful vs daemons are our psycannons and, most of all, incinerators. One round of shooting with even one incinerator will severely damage most deep-striking daemon squads, and with 2 incinerators you're almost guaranteed to wipe them. Psycannons aren't quite as good against massed infantry, but they benefit from longer range, and they're also much better against the big nasties like daemon princes.

 

Still, by far our best asset vs. daemons is the humble mystic. It's worth including a firebase inquisitor+retinue with 2-3 of these little guys in every army, both to help with suppressive fire and to deal effectively with deep strike (daemons, drop pods, and many many others). Include a plasma cannon, 2 heavy bolters, psycannon, and keep them near a landraider, and you're pretty much guaranteed to blast apart anything stupid enough to deep-strike nearby.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can sit in cover, but then you're asking to get Flamer-ed to death. Oh how I hate those... You require movement, to be able to move to the Random Deployment, in order to gain as much anti CC time as possible, just sitting in cover doesn't cut it. And this also requires the presence of enough cover as well.

 

Rite's let's us take full advantage of our Mobility, to decrease CC exposure and increase shooting time.

 

Psycannons are awesome. But ignoring a 5+ Invulnerable save isn't quite as good as less expensive higher rate of fire weapons. I'd use Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters over Psycannon, if they were available. Maybe if you face a lot of T Daemons, but that's still a 4+. Incinerators are good, I'd advocate sticking them on Dread's if possible, as you don't really want to get into Template Range (in your shooting phase), and Dreads (if you can keep them away from the Daemon Princes!) can be great at tying up thier uber anti infantry CC squads, that really have little change of hurting AV12.

 

Mystics are good. But then you'll start to see slight changes to aggressive DSing, to try to edge out thier 4d6 Range. And if the Mystics don't get used, you've taken a squad that is very squishy to any sort of Deamon retribution, and are easy Kill Points / Consolidate Moves.