New IG Codex. How are you going to cope?

[Ryzouken]

Actually, that exterm includes a hull mount HB.

 

And Vendettas are AV 12 skimmers with 3 TL lascannons, while not on the magnitude of a Land Raider, still significant.

 

Probably, if your opponents aren't afraid of using the squadrons rules, you can expect to see about double the tanks you saw before, points limits allowing. While the tank costs haven't changed much, the gribbly infantry did, dropping in points for the most part.

 

I'd expect two fairly common lists: mech guard all in Chimerae with support elements to player's taste, and classic infantry castle style, with about 6 or so russes (three squadrons of two) and enough infantry to screen. Maybe a Chimera or 6 to provide said Russes with cover (since the Russ Turret is tall enough to fire over the Chimera chassis, last I checked).

[Yeti]

Biggest threat I see in the new codex? Gunboat squadrons, 130pts a peice with landraider style transportation that carries 3 TLLascannons. 1-3 per FA choice, though with the models ringing it a nearly 60 US a peice I dont expect to see alot of them.

 

Are you talking about Valkyries? No big worry there. They're no tougher than a dreadnought and can't shoot if they more more than 12" and can only fire at 1 target (per squadron!). They also almost as big as a baneblade AND on a 6" tall flying stand ... no chance of getting any kind of cover.

[Ryzouken]

But, they have scout, meaning they can move up to 24 inches before the game begins (getting those chewy guard or tough allied grey knights in close), can deepstrike, can move only 6 and fire all weapons, meaning three mobile lascannon shots (at the same target, but we want fire saturation when looking at a randomised vehicle damage table) and they cost less than an infantry Hvy Weapons Team. Also, with a second squadron of Valks, you can generate cover using the cheesy chessboard technique of model arrangement. Also, that 6" flying stand means I have LOS to darn near anything on the table.

 

Valks are no laughing matter. They can do some serious stuff. I plan on running an all air cav list, maybe with a Leman Russ column as support. It's some interesting stuff (expensive as hell though. 500+ bucks just for the transports!)

[OnlyInDeath]

Yeah, picked up the guard dex today. I'll be reading thru that badboy tonight to see what's what. On first glance though, for people who like to do conversion work, there's a WHOLE lot of good toys in there...

[Ryzouken]

*Rubs up against his spiffy new Valkyrie kit and nuzzles his new codex.*

 

I'ma... not be on a lot the next couple days...

build me a killin masheen..

 

*totters off, glue in hand*

[Grey Mage]

Actually, that exterm includes a hull mount HB.

 

And Vendettas are AV 12 skimmers with 3 TL lascannons, while not on the magnitude of a Land Raider, still significant.

 

Probably, if your opponents aren't afraid of using the squadrons rules, you can expect to see about double the tanks you saw before, points limits allowing. While the tank costs haven't changed much, the gribbly infantry did, dropping in points for the most part.

 

I'd expect two fairly common lists: mech guard all in Chimerae with support elements to player's taste, and classic infantry castle style, with about 6 or so russes (three squadrons of two) and enough infantry to screen. Maybe a Chimera or 6 to provide said Russes with cover (since the Russ Turret is tall enough to fire over the Chimera chassis, last I checked).

Its the 12 person transportation that I was talking about man.

 

And to think, my eldar army pays 145pts for a single set of TL brightlances and extra armor and doesnt get half the abilities of these things.

 

*Stream of expletive*

[ORKILL]

My favorite wine and cheese......new I.G. There is a ton of whining going on. I played a tournament today. 9 players, 6(including my Praetorians) were IG......old codex, 2 smurfs, and a Nid player that had actually recast his Nids out of solid bronze. They were sweet! I got a Valk. as a prize.

[Grey Mage]

Wow... bronze nidz? that must have been frickin expensive.

[DragonPup]

While the prospect of 9 Leman Russes is pretty daunting, the way to deal with them is to remember the fairly significant weaknesses that vehicle squadrons come with.

 

- Squads of vehicles are like squads of infantry. A lone Predator Annihilator can damage all three Russes in one round of shooting since glances and pens are spread among the squad. Alternatively, a squad of Wolf Guard Terminators drop podding in from behind with assault cannons or cyclones would like wipe the entire squad.

 

- Immobilize = BOOM. Vehicles in a squadron are abandoned on an immobilize so even a glance can take one down. Also, damage from a unit shooting is resolved at the same time, so if there are 2 Russes left and both suffer an immobilize result from the same firing unit, they both get wrecked.

 

- When guns fail, get in close. You only need to make contact with 1 Russ to be able to hit the other 2 in CC. That Blood Claw with the fist only needs to make contact with one take for carnage to break out. AV10 vs 3 S8 fist attacks.

 

- They can only fire at one target. So does that 600+ point squad of Russes deal with the scouts that just appeared behind them, the Land Speeder Typhoon potshoting missiles, the closing pack of Blood Claws, or the predator? 3 Russes firing at the same squad tends to be a bit overkillish and ;eaves the squad vulnerable to multiple smaller squads.

 

- And finally, Russes are not cheap. I think the MBT is 150 with no extras, and no sponsons so a squad of them is going to clock in at over 500 points. An Ironclad with 2 HK Missiles, meltagun, heavy flamer and a drop pod is 190 and can theoretically just appear behind the Russes and frag them.

[Grey Mage]

9 Leman russes is almost the entirety of a 2000pts force, all by themselves once you add in sponsons etc. Youd have like HQ and 2 troops after that. While theyre powerful, you have to put it in perspective.... what can you do with 600pts that can kill them and kill other things good too.

[OnlyInDeath]

I had just finished reading the dex, and was about to make a post on EXACTLY what pup just wrote on.

 

So, instead, I'll hit up what I like and dont like:

 

Infantry is mostly unchanged really, as far as the standard infantry squad goes. Just cheaper by a handful of points. So, the same tactic against them: bolters. Good ol, standard bolters, mow down infantry squads. A GH should mow through a squad a turn, easy. Other than that, assaulting always works, but leaves you mighty exposed, as always.

 

Heavy weapon squads have come down in price, oh joy. However, now that they are a SQUAD of 2 wound models, not 6 "individual guys" as before, highly susceptable to instant death. A slight scatter on a plasma cannon can take out a pair of teams easily with the instant death. A single assault cannon can potentially take out a whole squad with rending (str 6 is twice T3, woo!)

 

Special weapons squads have the potential to be nasty. However....they dont flank, scout, infiltrate, nothing. They will make a great counter attack unit, but in the end, possibly a points sink as they have to have a transport to be really effective.

 

Vets and Stormtroopers actually do scare me....them in Valks, could cause a world of hurt deep in your lines with lots of special weapons and AP 3 hellguns.

 

Penal Legion squads, for 80 points, are one of the best sacrificial units out there, especially when their special rules actually make them viable in combat! Expect to see the world's remaining Necromunda models shrink as people buy these up for penal legion squads. Egad, one of these with a priest would just be nasty, even to space marines...

 

Other than that, the vehicles are big and scary upon first glance, but if they are deployed as squadrons, use the advantage that 4-6 on a pen means that they die, and it ALSO, most importantly, means you can actually destroy a tank in a squad with a glancing roll. OBEL scouts will wreak havok with any armor squads that sit back instead of moving forward, essentially making a mess of any squad nearby with glances and pens. Expect OBEL scouts to be your allstars in any guard game.

 

Watch out for Medusas: these babys can pack a mean, 36" range punch of a demolisher cannon equivalent, and for a handful of points more, a great 24" anti tank shot....yeesh.

 

 

All in all, Guard will be NASTY in apoc games, where the full might of the list can come to bear. They will also prolly be really good in 'Ard Boyz, where 2500 pts means they can field a literal couple hundred guardsmen with lots of armor support.

 

 

The key that I can see to beating guard armies (mind you, just based in theroy. There's no one right now that plays guard, or really understands them well enough to play well around here. Also based upon playing 5th ed IG and 4th ed IG.)

 

1. Bring units which will allow you to shoot at various units. 6 man GH's in a RB work wonders, as you can start forcing morale checks all over the place, and severely chew up units. Sniper scouts are a very cheap and wonderful unit as well (I use 4 SR's, HB, 1 ablative wound, something like 90 pts). Cheap artillery like whirlwinds are also a must. Pie plates which disallow cover saves, AP 5? yes please. Dont go for the big "uber" units, as they will just draw lots of fire and wont be able to kill enough to earn their points back fast enough.

 

2. Bring some good anti tank. You will want something with a long reach that can handle both light and heavy armor. TLLC/ML vendread is always a great choice for taking out a tank a turn. TLLC/HB sponson pread might not be a bad idea either. Attack bikes would be a decent idea, but you are going to have a long way to cross to get to most guard armor, so I would avoid them personally. As I stated above, OBEL scouts are just about a "must".

 

3. Avoid the drop pods of doom. I take back my previous statements. There's no way that you can bring down a unit that can stand up to THAT much concentrated fire, especially with the new orders. I hate to say it, but the termie drop pod of doom will go down like a mega chump when it gets nailed by hundreds of lasgun shots, with meltas, plasma, and battlecannon thrown in for good measure. If you must do a drop pod, think of something that can target a company HQ squad and annihilate it. Rapid fire bolters would work. Just remember, for every bodyguard, they can absorb two wounds to the unit (but only at the same time, 1 kills them just as good as two).

 

4. Dont forget how orders work. A unit can only recieve one order a turn. Platoon commanders can give 1 a turn, company commanders 2. It's not a lot, but it can mean a very painful result. Taking out the HQ squads should be a high priority. Ass cans or auto cans will do wonders to shredding a command squad, or even a well placed WW missile strike.

 

5. Cover will be the name of the game. Stay in cover, cuz you WILL be facing lots, and lots of AP 1-3 weapons (however inaccurate they are, they still hit w/ that much volume). On the flip side of that, you will have to have weapons to get bodies out of cover, so obviously flamers, but more realistically, whirlwinds yet again.

 

6. Going first will prolly not be a bad idea here. If you can whittle down the numbers fast, do it! that said, if you cant go first, start in reserve (or not if there's a master of the fleet in that company command squad! avoid any reserve rolls with him around...esh). You dont want to sit there taking that much fire with out being able to do anything. Try to engage at mid range, where bolters are far more effective than lasguns, and can shred a squad a turn. Just watch for special weapons teams or vets!

 

 

Ok, that's the first impressions ;)

[lunchb0x]

Heavy Bolters, and Las-cannons.

 

Fix all for guard, nids , orks, chaos, eldar. ;)

[Brother Chaplain Darius]

As a Guard and Wolf player, I'm gonna give a run down of what I think of the new codex. Basically, it gives us all the keys to killing armies just like the wolves. Wolves/BT and anything that specializes in short range firefights.

 

1. Orders- Orders allow us to have that extra bit of umph when we need it to counter a particular threat. Counting on your land raider or (worse) Rhino/Razorback getting your wolves into range for the shoot 'em up before the assault? "Bring It Down" allows us to twin link anything firing on your vehicles. FRF/SRF allows us to absolutely drown you in lasguns before the assault. Things like "Fire on my target" force you to reroll successful coversaves and others allow automatic rallies and additional coversaves. Imagine if there was a way for me to do the exact worst thing I possibly could to your army, well, this is it. Even the drop pods of doom aren't enough, as if you drop on a full platoon, you'll kill what, 10 guardsmen with a heavy flamer/assault cannon? You just traded that Dreadnought for 65 point unit.

 

2. Vehicles- This is where everyone seems to be freaking out... the 9 Russ option. While possible, it's not really feasible. I'm not saying you won't see it, those guys are definitely out there. However, in MY guard army, vehicles are all about forcing armies JUST LIKE YOURS to make choices. In the military it's called "Staying inside your decision cycle" meaning that I force you to react to ME. On the table, that means that I'll give you the choice of shooting at my menacing Leman Russ, but I'll also have just deep struck my pair of Valkyrie/Storm Trooper combo right next to the Long Fang squad you're going to shoot it with. That Valkryie is going to fire a Multilaser or Hellstrike missle into your Grey Hunters, while the Storm Troopers blast your long fangs with AP3 lasguns, while the other goes for your dakka-pred. While this is happening, my veterans are moving on the objective, my Russ ordinances part of a squad, and the Master of Ordinance earthshakers another. This doesn't include what the conscripts, guard platoon, and heavy weapons squads will be doing. Now, all of this assumes average rolling, but still... which is the most pressing threat?

 

One doesn't use all his vehicles at the same time in the same place, presenting the most obvious target for all your firepower. We KNOW you guys are good at killing our stuff, so we have to flood you with so many targets that firing will be inefficient, and assaults spread out.

 

3. Numbers- Space Marines, and especially wolves with the Retinues rule, will always gravitate toward high power units with small numbers. This excludes blood claws of course, but any player with a brain will know to focus fire on them. I honestly don't know how Space Marines will counter this, as if you Drop Pod en mass, you'll get hammered. If you come at us penny-packets you get ESPECIALLY hammered. It seems to me the best option is combined assaults, that assume you're going to lose up to half of the squad before you even hit the lines. Don't over do it with Wolf Guard Terminators, or your HQs, because that throws up a red flag for us to pound that unit mercilessly.

 

My best guess would be to try and target one element of the army first, and eliminate it. This is a surprisingly strong list. When I started Guard, it was with a slight sense of masochism... now... I almost feel bad for everyone else. I have 5000 points of guard... who can tailor a list with all those options? Heh.

[OnlyInDeath]

As I outlined in the post above, I do think that it's possible for wolves to beat IG, just as we've always done. But, just as we've always done, we have to be very smart about it. See my above post for many suggestions.

 

I really cant emphasize just how important it will be to try and take out those officers ASAP, and I think the best way to do this will just be to force them to take wounds. Snipers, whirlwinds, anything with height advantage will help. Master of Ordinance is just a scary little option for 30 points, allowing him to continually bring in massive destruction on your troops, making it quite possibly THE most OP unit in the game. However, without the orders making units especially kick butt, you are dealing with normal guardsmen.

 

In the end, just play smart. If you play mech, use your rhinos to screen troops after they've deployed so that you cut off IG fire lanes, use templates, force Ld tests as much as possible, target officers and heavy weapons platoons to reduce the nasty AP weapons shooting at you. Dont take those big uber units, as they will never, ever get thier points back. And make your anti-tank very good at taking out said tanks/other vehicles. Valks, while great for a little while, dont seem to last too long with only AV 12 all around. Russes obviously are big and menacing, but even then, it's guard shooting and ordinance, same as always. Just remember your lessons from pre-new dex guard, and you should be fine. They've always made us think outside the box and use our dex wisely, nothing has changed here.

[Ryzouken]

Master of Ordinance is far from OP. Every shot he makes will scatter and it's only Ap 3. Stick your guys in some cover or get some termies and you'll not worry too much. It'd be a more effective vehicle hunter, but again, it scatters too much to be reliable. That said, if the unit includes a mortar team, you'll need to flatten that mortar team ASAP as it'll remove that scatter in favor of the multiple barrage rule.

 

Regarding Russ squadrons, I doubt you'll see more than 6 (three units of two), and squadron rules can be as much a boon as a hindrance. Also remember those bad boys can glean a 3+ cover save if given camo netting and a bodyguard Chimera. I'd not discount them so quickly. As to the targetting issues, a single Battlecannon shot on a unit of marines hurts. Two battlecannon shots on that squad generally wipes the squad. Three squads a turn means you probably can't score anymore. And I've 600 points to build the rest of my army at 1500 points, meaning I can easily fit 80 guardsmen with a smattering of heavy weapons.

 

It'll be very interesting how well Guard does in the future and how many decent builds we'll see.

[OnlyInDeath]

Did you read the WD battle report with the master of ordinance in there? He pretty much took out a unit a turn. Kinda scary, as "only AP 3" means that anyone not in cover is dead, and frankly the typical game or tourney board wont have enough cover for all of your guys. Yes, it always scatters, but it's much like the orbital from the WH dex: as long as it's on our side of the board, scattering doesnt matter too much.

[Brother Chaplain Darius]

Did you read the WD battle report with the master of ordinance in there? He pretty much took out a unit a turn. Kinda scary, as "only AP 3" means that anyone not in cover is dead, and frankly the typical game or tourney board wont have enough cover for all of your guys. Yes, it always scatters, but it's much like the orbital from the WH dex: as long as it's on our side of the board, scattering doesnt matter too much.

 

And if he can SEE you, he reduces the scatter by his BS. You also must take a pinning test, as it is Barrage.

[lunchb0x]

Did you read the WD battle report with the master of ordinance in there? He pretty much took out a unit a turn. Kinda scary, as "only AP 3" means that anyone not in cover is dead, and frankly the typical game or tourney board wont have enough cover for all of your guys. Yes, it always scatters, but it's much like the orbital from the WH dex: as long as it's on our side of the board, scattering doesnt matter too much.

 

And if he can SEE you, he reduces the scatter by his BS. You also must take a pinning test, as it is Barrage.

 

 

Drop pod...right in the middle of his guys. :D

[OnlyInDeath]

That's what I'm sayin. Bring 1 DP, one DP only, GH squad of 10, 2xpp, PG, light up the company command squad. Sacrifice a 300 pt unit to make your day much MUCH easier....might actually be worth it lol...then again...eh....I dont know. Maybe just light up the unit as much as possible with whrilwinds. Either way, the unit must die, fast.

[Grey Mage]

I fought alongside gaurd today. I gotta say, alot of powerful options, but I didnt see anything that was "over the top". I mean fleet, furious charge, and rending sounds horrifying, and then you recall theyve but one attack and are S/T 3. And thats only on a random 1/3 chance at the start of the game for the penal unit. Psychopaths I believe it was... there was also knife fighters, who had an extra attack and FNP, and gunslingers, who had Assault 2 24" lasguns. All fun, but nothing over the top IMHO.

 

The Leman Russ's are a great tank, but once again werent over the top. I find the option for multimelta sponsons to be a bit terrifying, but theyre expensive, and probly not as effective as some of the other options.

 

11 rear armor on a tank was also interesting to see and threw us all a curveball.

 

Also, having to have the target of "Bring it down!" in LOS to your officer can really screw with a player during interbuilding warfare... no gaurantees there. Also, "Incoming is of lmited use when only used on the players own turn. Powerful, heck yes... 2+ save in ruins is very nice, but your pinned for basicly two turns to use it.

 

Wolfhound is interesting, but a rhino mounted meltagun will be the death of it, and quickly if theres not enough supporting firepower in the area. The Chem-gun is also very very short ranged, meaning some infantry will even be able to get to the tank before the tank can shoot them. I actually dont expect to see many of this variant.

 

Hydra Flak tank has two autocannons that ignore coversaves. Scouts beware! but otherwise no worse for marines than any other autocannon. *Shrugs* Definitly a consumate eldar slayer though. *wince*.

 

Interestingly enough, if you play your squads right you can actually have alot more heavy weapon teams out there than ever before.... five for every two squads of infantry and officer squad.

 

Also, Imperial gaurd uses the 10/15 pw/pf units just like space wolves do. I expect alot more hidden powerfists in gaurd armies from this day forth.

 

Leman Russ Executioner is a terror with five plasmacannons that can move 6" and shoot on a tank with rear armor 11. BS 3 still means theres some serious scatter, but Im already looking at modding more of my terminators with stormshields *though Ive been flirting with the idea for a while now*.

 

No 4+ save. Carapace armor isnt an option on the infantry platoon or conscripts. Veterans can get it, but it costs alot of points compared to the gaurdsmen. Bolters are once again a wolfs best friend vs infantry.

 

Sentinels- Armored sentinels with 12 VA fronts and a multilaser standard. I expect to see alot of these in my future. Very nice, and fairly cheap.

 

Overall for a well mixed force I figure itll be about 5% point reduction with armor having gone up and infantry having gone way down. Infantry hordes will have alot more bodies though. Alot more.

 

Also, master of ordnance.... 30pts, no range or line of site penalties. Drawback? Cant hit on target, minimum roll of 2d6, 3d6 if you dont "Hit" it. So not something our forces need to worry about as much... but hell on wheels vs horde armies. I think alot of IG players will underestimate it, and at 30pts alot of gaurd players will say "heck, why not".

[Ryzouken]

Chimera APC. Wreck it and the squad deploys opposite it (potentially out of LOS). Don't wreck it and the squad sits snug inside. Gotta explode it entirely to remove the problem. Also, this all depends on whether the IG player is dumb enough to put his CCS within 10" of a legal drop location. This also depends on a friendly scatter. Then there's the commonly taken allied Inquisitor with mystics, letting them drop all manner of death on the unit you just dropped.

 

Really, really not a great idea to Pod in. Whirlwind might be better.

[Hfran Morkai]

Played a game against guard on friday and two vendettas in the list. He won the roll off and said I could go first?? Bizarre for guard. His vendettas were too close to my pred and my crusader. Shot them down before they made a hot. But outflanking or deepstriking vendettas, scary. I like the guard and so I'm gonna have air cav in my apoc list for cheese!!

[Lord Ragnarok]

This has been a great discussion on the new IG dex brothers(and sisters). Keep up the good conversation and intel please.

 

 

Have a few on me for the good discussion.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/hansmannstein/smiles_415.gif

[Jonny Wolf]

Picked up the new dex:

 

Check out Guardsman Marbo (rambo), his stat line and the fact that he costs less than a Typhoon Land Speeder. Don't want to cross IP lines here, but he has fleet, furious charge, infiltrate, move through cover, loner, look out behind you, frag, melta, demo, poisoned blade that wounds on a 2+ and a pistol that is ap2/sniper.

 

Some seriously overpowered, under priced characters in there....

 

My point: C:SM was a bad product.

[Ryzouken]

"My point: C:SM was a bad product."

 

The extent to which I disagree with this statement is beyond my ability to express using the English language.

C:SM was a perfectly fine codex. C:DA is not. C:CSM is not. C:Necron was not. C:SM is perfectly fine, well balanced internally with plenty of interesting options (once people get past the "ooh! Sternguard are shiny!" phase).

 

I am also of the contention that nothing in the new IG book is undercosted. Everything that might be undercost has mitigating effects. You cited the example of Marbo. Marbo has either a single shot ap 2 pistol, a demo charge (which scatters, possibly back onto himself), and cannot assault the turn he "lands." The most damage he can inflict in the single turn he lives is a demo charge. You should be in cover, in a vehicle, or off table. After that, he's a T3 single wound that gives you a Kill Point. Yes please.

 

Before it gets mentioned, Vendettas are not undercosted either. They're on a fairly fragile AV 12 skimmer frame. It's neato that they get to outflank, but that just means they'll get a single turn's worth of firing before they get either shaken or fragged.

 

In the example game cited above with two Vendettas, the guard player was fairly silly, and ought to have gone first. His vendettas might have done something then.

 

I guess my major point is, take a deep breath, relax, and realise that everything isn't as broken as you think it is.