Hit by gun with AP 3 or lower

[askeL]

If plague marine was shot by gun with ap lower than 3 will can be use feel no pain rule? I know that if it hit by monster creature or power weapon I won't be able to use feel no pain, is that right?

[eyescrossed]

You can use it if you get hit by AP3, but not AP2 or 1 or a CC attack that ignores Armour saves, or ANY attack that causes Instant Death.

[Vissah]

As far as I know it goes like this.

If you cant take the armour save you cant take the feel no pain save.

[Vomikron Noxis]

Not quite true, eyescrossed was right. AP3 might deny us a power armour save, but it does not "allow no armour save", and thus FNP can be used. If it was no armour save=no FNP then Nob bikers would be much less feared!

[Kerrigan]

I think also Vissa got it right. No armour save means no FnP. It makes sense, doesn't it? If your armour can't save you, why will your feel no pain? The enemy allready made the wound. I will look it up later in the rulebook.

[eyescrossed]

That would mean that Plague Zombies would never get to use FNP against weapons with any AP, as it "Ignores their Armour save". It even says in the rulebook it's AP1 and 2 weapons, Power weapons and things that cause ID.

[JamesI]

I think also Vissa got it right. No armour save means no FnP. It makes sense, doesn't it? If your armour can't save you, why will your feel no pain? The enemy allready made the wound. I will look it up later in the rulebook.

No. FNP works against AP3 weapons, but not AP1 or 2.

[Ju'kosian]

I think also Vissa got it right. No armour save means no FnP. It makes sense, doesn't it? If your armour can't save you, why will your feel no pain? The enemy allready made the wound. I will look it up later in the rulebook.

 

A for close combat weapons this is correct, but as far as shooting goes it's only AP 2/ AP1 and instant death (S8 or higher)

 

So you get your save against 'thousand sons bolters" or sternguard with ap3 shooting but not against a battle canon or Krak missile since those cause instant death.

[Vissah]

Seems I got it slightly wrong there sorry for the commotion :D

I dont play DG but I played them the last two weeks and that is what one of the guys at the club told me, Im still fairly new to the game after a 10 year absent.

[CorpseMarine]

Yes AP3 still allows us our FNP. I hate fighting thousand sons, I get to roll way less dice..... =P

[Lord Humongous]

I think also Vissa got it right. No armour save means no FnP. It makes sense, doesn't it? If your armour can't save you, why will your feel no pain? The enemy allready made the wound. I will look it up later in the rulebook.

 

That's wrong on two counts.

First, AP3 guns do allow FNP rolls, and units with no armor save (demons) can still use FNP against weapons AP3+. Sure, "the enemy aleady made the wound"- that's the whole point, FNP lets you ignore wounds you actually took! Why do you think so many DG are walking around with thier guts hanging out? :lol:

Second, even hits that do not have ANY AP can negate FNP if they would cause instant death to the target. The most common example I can think of is certain shooty carnifex weapons; they can be str 8 without having much in the way of AP.

[Ju'kosian]

Seems I got it slightly wrong there sorry for the commotion :P

I dont play DG but I played them the last two weeks and that is what one of the guys at the club told me, Im still fairly new to the game after a 10 year absent.

 

ah don't mind it, a little commotion is good to keep things alive.. :)

[Thantoes]

I feel that I have to disagree with those who say you get to use FNp vs ap3 weapons.

 

The paragraph reads "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice"

 

To me this says that a marine with armour 3 which is beaten by Ap3 does not get to take a save, thus can never pass it which falls in nicely with the paragraph further down which lists what weapons you cant use FNP with and ends with etc. So while your FNP will help your captain with artificer armour, it will never come into play against a sternguards Ap3 bolter.

[Citizen Snips]

It says in the rule book AP1, AP2, double toughness, or power weapons. I believe when it says you can't use from weapons that grant no armor saves, it means things that no matter what armor you have, will go through. AP1 and 2 goes through any armor as does power weapons.

 

again :cussty GW writing. Does no armor save weapon count as the model you use, or weapons that will ignore all armor in the game. Because nobz with FnP and no upgrade would only get it from ap- weapons or in close combat with regular weapons than.

[DemetriiTZ]

I feel that I have to disagree with those who say you get to use FNp vs ap3 weapons.

 

The paragraph reads "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice"

 

To me this says that a marine with armour 3 which is beaten by Ap3 does not get to take a save, thus can never pass it which falls in nicely with the paragraph further down which lists what weapons you cant use FNP with and ends with etc. So while your FNP will help your captain with artificer armour, it will never come into play against a sternguards Ap3 bolter.

 

By your logic, Plaguebearers would never, ever get a Feel No Pain save versus anything, because they have no armor save, and Nob Bikers aren't really the big problem everyone else in the world thinks they are, because we've all collectively overlooked how effective a crappy little S5 AP4 Whirlwind blast would be on them?

 

Seriously. Get real. If anyone tried to lawyer this one on me, I wouldn't even bother to cite the rulebook. I'd thrash them with the book itself.

 

Sharp edges first. :tu:

[Thantoes]

Hmmm, mighty defensive arent we DemetriiTZ.

 

By your logic, if you somehow managed to give FNP to a guardsman he would be able to use a FNP save vs a heavy bolter??? Interesting.

 

If you think about it in a logical, non knee-jerk way you can see how it would work.

 

Lets go through it.

 

The entry states "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice"

 

Ap3 vs Armour 3. Do they get a save? NO they do not. They can never and will never get a save. So how can they fill the criteria of getting an "UNSAVED" wound.

 

The word "unsaved"...lets take a look at it. It implies that you attempted a save and failed it. They didnt use the word "unsaveable" for a reason.

 

Near the end of the paragraph they list some weapons that will negate FNP. Note how they are all weapons that will never invoke an armour save. AP1, AP2, power weapons and then the word "ETC" which means that the list is not all inclusive.

 

It specifially says that FNP wont work against weapons where no Armour Save is possible. If you can show me how you will get an Armour save with a marine vs an AP3 weapon then I will concede your point.

 

The reason that they didnt include AP3 in the list is because some units can actually save vs AP3. Terminators and artificer armour will do it. So terminator captain with command squad fails armour save will get a FNP save. Bog standard captain in normal armour would not.

[Brother Nihm]

Bumping this over to the OR.

[Legatus]

Lets go through it.

 

The entry states "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice"

 

Ap3 vs Armour 3. Do they get a save? NO they do not. They can never and will never get a save. So how can they fill the criteria of getting an "UNSAVED" wound.

 

The word "unsaved"...lets take a look at it. It implies that you attempted a save and failed it. They didnt use the word "unsaveable" for a reason.

If an armour save cannot even be attempted, then the wound is suffered "unsaved" by default. THat it is "unsaved" is independent from whether it was ever possible to save it. It was not saved.

 

I mean, it would be kind of interresting if it wasn't so, because Instant Death is only caused by suffernig an "unsaved wound" from a weapon of twice the model's toughness (rulebook page 26). That would mean a Captain in power armour would survive a single Missile wound, while a Captain in Terminator armour, upon failing his save, would not. It would also means that Powerfists, Dreadnoughts and Carnifexes could never inflict instant death in close combat.

[Rosicrucian]

'unsaved' does not imply that you attempted an armour save and failed it, it simply means that the wound was not saved by armour, ignoring totally whether it was unsaved with or without a roll.

 

BBB, pg 75, FNP, 4th sentence;

 

'Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken.'

 

I have underlined 'ever' myself as it seems to be the operative word here, certain types of armour can, obviously, save against AP3 weapons, whereas no armour save is ever possible against AP1 or AP2 weapons.

 

It makes no difference as to whether the actual model can make an armour save roll or not.

 

I will admit that there are several assumptions inherent in the rule as written, firstly that there are no 1+ armour saves in the game and/or that a roll of 1 on an armour save is always a failure, both of which I think are fairly safe assumptions although I cannot find either in writing atm.

[Thantoes]

A fair point to be sure.

 

Its a good thing then that my argument doesnt rely totally on the word "unsaved" and has a 2 pronged attack.

 

It still doesnt negate the whole weapons that dont allow an armour save point of my argument. AP3 does not allow an armour save from a marine.

[Thantoes]

BBB, pg 75, FNP, 4th sentence;

 

'Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken.'

 

I have underlined 'ever' myself as it seems to be the operative word here, certain types of armour can, obviously, save against AP3 weapons, whereas no

 

Ok, now does that mean no armour in the whole game system or the armour of the individual model being shot?

[Sceleris]

Thantoes - The armour save of a model is to all intensive purposes irrelevant as to whether you get FNP.

 

As Rosicrucian has pointed out you don't get FNP against AP1 or AP2 weaponary (explicitlty stated in the rules), power weapons (which by the BBB do not allow armour saves) and any other weapons where no armour save is ever possible.

 

A wound caused by an AP3 gun is not a "wound against which no armour save can ever be taken", as something with a 2+ save can take one.

 

Your argument does not overcome the issue mentioned above about Plaguebearers (since they don't have an amour save, only an invulnerable one, FNP is apparently usless) and bikernobs aren't a problem 'cos they have poor armour saves

[Captain Malachi]

The reason that they didnt include AP3 in the list is because some units can actually save vs AP3. Terminators and artificer armour will do it. So terminator captain with command squad fails armour save will get a FNP save. Bog standard captain in normal armour would not.

So you're saying the same guy in terminator armour can ignore a wound that got through his armour but if he's in power armour he can't?

 

Do you actually believe your argument or are you just arguing for fun? (not an attack I'm just curious, people do do that sometimes)

[Thantoes]

The reason that they didnt include AP3 in the list is because some units can actually save vs AP3. Terminators and artificer armour will do it. So terminator captain with command squad fails armour save will get a FNP save. Bog standard captain in normal armour would not.

So you're saying the same guy in terminator armour can ignore a wound that got through his armour but if he's in power armour he can't?

 

Do you actually believe your argument or are you just arguing for fun? (not an attack I'm just curious, people do do that sometimes)

 

Thats exactly what I am saying. A terminator will save vs AP3. So the wound will not fall into the "no armour save can ever be taken" category because he can plainly take an armour save. FNP kicks in and he takes the FNP save. The guy in the power armour doesnt get to save and he is just plain unlucky.

 

 

As to all the examples of plague bearers. Well I can list 2 points there

 

1. GW have *gasp* been known to make errors

2. The 5ed FAQ deals with codex entries where the rules dont seem to apply anymore or have no meaning

 

And yes, I do believe in my argument. The entry reads to me that if the weapons AP beats your armour, you dont get an armour save and then FNP doesnt kick in.

[Cornishman]

I'd say that unless the wound is inflicted by a weapon that is AP1, AP2, causes instant death, or comes from a source that doesn't allow ever armour saves you can use FNP.

There is a small but subtle difference between a wounding allowing armour saves to be taken, and being able to make them (this depends on AP of the weapon).

Armour has a save of X+, wounds are caused by something that is APX. Even though it is APX is still allows armour saves to be made, assuming you have good enough armour (with the exception of AP2 or AP1 which is covered above). As such so long as the weapon is AP3 or worse armour saves can be taken assuming you have the armour, so FNP can be used.

 

All the given examples of wounds which don't allow armour saving throws are from effects which clearly state no armour save can be taken (e.g. powerweapons etc...)