Hit by gun with AP 3 or lower

[Gornall]

Here's the deal from my opinion...

 

Requirements for FNP:

 

1. Unsaved wound (doesn't say that you failed a save... unsaved means you wound normally take a wound)

2. Cannot be an "Instant Death" blow (either Force weapon or S>=2T... even if the model has Eternal Warrior)

3. Cannot be used against AP1, AP2, Power weapons, and any other wound against which no armour save can EVER (emphasis mine) be taken.

 

What is especially telling about point 3 is that it then goes on to mention about 10 other things that ignore ALL armour saves but at no point EVER mentions weapons that penetrate some armour but not all armor. From a RAW perspective, I see no reason why having your armor penetrated by an AP3+ weapon would deny FNP. Precedent also holds this to be true, as indicated with the discussion about Plaguebearers and Nob Bikers.

[Stargazer]

Hi guys I think I'm about to throw another spanner in the works cos I can see both sides of the argument but with the argument being based on ork biker nobs they also get a 4+ cover save I believe for being on ork bikes. so can they take feel no pain if they elect to take the cover save or if a weapon that ignores their cover and armour save hits them can they still take Feel No Pain???

 

Just a thought :P

[Brother Gothard]

Just to get everyone in on this, here are the rules; pg. 75 AoBR Booklet:

Some warriors are so blood-frenzied or tough that they can ignore injuries that would incapacitate even a battle-hardened Space Marine. If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2 or 3, take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting. This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death (by having a high enough Strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior). Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc).

 

 

To me, Gornall has got it right on the nose here:

1. Unsaved wound (doesn't say that you failed a save... unsaved means you wound normally take a wound)

2. Cannot be an "Instant Death" blow (either Force weapon or S>=2T... even if the model has Eternal Warrior)

3. Cannot be used against AP1, AP2, Power weapons, and any other wound against which no armour save can EVER (emphasis mine) be taken

Where "EVER...be taken" is to mean weapons that ignore armour saves regardless of the armour of the target. This emphasized part is so important as to be the coffin nail for Thanatoes's argument.

 

The example of the Terminator Captain vs the Power Armour Captain also points out the same flaw. Allow me to repeat it:

Suppose the Marneus Calgar had FNP. He has the option to ride around in either Power Armour or Terminator Armour (Antilochus suit, or whatever). In either case, he has FNP. Now, Marneus-in-Power-Armour gets shot with an AP3 weapon. If Thanatoes is right, he wont get to roll his FNP save. Now, Marneus-in-Terminator-Armour gets shot with the same AP3 weapon. If Thanatoes is right, he WILL get to roll his FNP save.

 

What is the difference here? Well, by Thanatoes's reading, whether a model gets to roll a FNP save depends on the armour he is wearing, not the strength of his body. The qualifying mechanic for Feel No Pain is not Attacker-AP vs. Defender-Armour, its Attacker-Strength-Rules-or-AP vs. Defender-Statline. You can place the emphasis on the Defender's armour save if you want, but its a poor reading of the rules. The emphasis is placed on the Attackers AP regardless of the Defender's save.

[Grey Mage]

Hmmm, mighty defensive arent we DemetriiTZ.

 

By your logic, if you somehow managed to give FNP to a guardsman he would be able to use a FNP save vs a heavy bolter??? Interesting.

 

If you think about it in a logical, non knee-jerk way you can see how it would work.

 

Lets go through it.

 

The entry states "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice"

 

Ap3 vs Armour 3. Do they get a save? NO they do not. They can never and will never get a save. So how can they fill the criteria of getting an "UNSAVED" wound.

 

The word "unsaved"...lets take a look at it. It implies that you attempted a save and failed it. They didnt use the word "unsaveable" for a reason.

 

No... it quite literally means "not saved". That something was not done does not imply that it was possible to begin with. I have never gone on a walk to the moon and come back via scottland and hawii. This does not mean if I put on my running shoes I can go to the moon and return via scotland and hawii. Yet it remains undone

 

By your logic, Plaguebearers would never, ever get a Feel No Pain save versus anything, because they have no armor save, and Nob Bikers aren't really the big problem everyone else in the world thinks they are, because we've all collectively overlooked how effective a crappy little S5 AP4 Whirlwind blast would be on them?

And yeah.. QFT on the bikers there. Yeesh.

[Ming]

Sometimes i feel like a discussion killer so here it goes.

 

A captain has a command squad and apothecary, so he has FNP. He is in 3+ armor, and has the 4+ rosarius.

 

He is shot and wounded with a AP3 weapon. He has to take the 4+ invulnerable save. He fails the save, poor guy. He then rolls a FNP dice, on a 4+ he ignores the wound. He rolls a 5, so lives to drink about it.

 

The rest of the command group is not so lucky. Having no invulnerable saves to an AP3 weapon, they cannot roll a save. The marines that were assigned wounds take the wounds and die...

 

Next plant fall the Captain takes along a librarian with force dome. Now his whole entourage has a 5+ invulnerable save. FNP can help them all against AP3 weapons but not anything with lower AP or with S8 and higher.

 

Captain and entourage gets hit by a S8 AP- barbed strangler. Except for those lucky enough to pass their 3+ saves, they all FEEL THE PAIN...just for an instant though, being instant death and all....

[Captain Malachi]

The rest of the command group is not so lucky. Having no invulnerable saves to an AP3 weapon, they cannot roll a save. The marines that were assigned wounds take the wounds and die...

But that's just plain wrong. They do get their FnP save as long as it isn't Ap1-2, S8+ or some other weapon that always ignores saves (monstrous creatures or power weapons in CC for example). Unless it ALWAYS ignores the save, no matter what save you have, you get the FnP roll.

 

I honestly don't even see the confusion here. I really can't see how you can think that an AP3 weapon ignores FnP in any case.

[Thantoes]

The 3 main arguments against me are.

 

1. The word "unsaved" refers to wounds that are unsavable as well as failed armour saves. If someone could point me to the relevant page where is says that unsavable wounds are refered to as "unsaved" I would be greatfull and would go a long way to turning me around on this.

 

2. That the word "ever" in the line "no armour save can ever be taken" in fact refers to every item of armour in the whole game. People have even gone to the trouble of italicising and bolding it to punctuate this. However I think its an opinion, nothing more. My opinion is that a powered armoured marine wont ever be able to take an armour save vs AP3. The line is ambiquous enough that it could go either way. I just feel that the fact that "no armour save can ever be taken" against a weapon of an AP equal to or less than means that AP3 weapons falls into this category.

[Legatus]

Sometimes i feel like a discussion killer so here it goes.

 

[examples of situations]

I assume you wanted to make some sort of point somewhere there...

 

1. The word "unsaved" refers to wounds that are unsavable as well as failed armour saves. If someone could point me to the relevant page where is says that unsavable wounds are refered to as "unsaved" I would be greatfull and would go a long way to turning me around on this.

"Unsaved" refers to a wound that was not saved. You are infering additional meaning that is not correct. The word implicates that you look at the situation after any applicable saves have been taken, so the point where the model would lose it's wound. It is not the point after the enemy has rolled successfuly to Wound. It is the point after regular saves. Even if the model has no save available, you will still arrive at the point after saves where the model loses the wound, the "unsaved" wound.

 

2. That the word "ever" in the line "no armour save can ever be taken" in fact refers to every item of armour in the whole game. People have even gone to the trouble of italicising and bolding it to punctuate this. However I think its an opinion, nothing more. My opinion is that a powered armoured marine wont ever be able to take an armour save vs AP3. The line is ambiquous enough that it could go either way. I just feel that the fact that "no armour save can ever be taken" against a weapon of an AP equal to or less than means that AP3 weapons falls into this category.

"Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken"

 

Can there ever be an armoru save taken against an AP3 weapon? I know you instantly want to state an if, but the rule has no "if".

[Captain Malachi]

1. The word "unsaved" refers to wounds that are unsavable as well as failed armour saves. If someone could point me to the relevant page where is says that unsavable wounds are refered to as "unsaved" I would be greatfull and would go a long way to turning me around on this.

I'll ignore your second point as we're clearly not going to agree on that. But this point is easy, it's called the definition of unsaved. We don't need to point to anywhere in the rulebook, it's the dictionary you need to look at. If something can't be saved, then it will be unsaved. The only other option is saved, and that clearly can't happen if it can't be saved in the first place.

[Thantoes]

I honestly don't even see the confusion here. I really can't see how you can think that an AP3 weapon ignores FnP in any case.

 

I dont know. Perhaps I am too thick to understand something so blatently obvious. Or perhaps I feel that the wording is pretty ambiguous and could support my case and is, infact not blatently obvious.

 

Still, I am willing to debate it with what I believe are at least semi valid points. If I am wrong then I will have learned something and it will benefit me and enrich my game and hobby. I also hope that the next person, such as the OP who comes along with the same question will be able to read the thread and see both sides of the argument.

 

@ming. The captain wouldnt get FNP if he failed his invulnerable test. The rules for FNP quite clearly state "Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken" Invulnerable save =/= armour save

 

*edit* took out a line that could have been a litte OTT or considered a personal attack, also added in some addition info

[Captain Malachi]

@Thantoes: I'm not attacking anyone here, I was simply pointing out I don't get it. It's just too clear to me. I'm also aware that I tend to come off pretty abrasive, so I apologise if I ever offended you or anyone else, it wasn't my intention to do so.

[Lord Humongous]

The word "unsaved"...lets take a look at it. It implies that you attempted a save and failed it. They didnt use the word "unsaveable" for a reason.

 

Near the end of the paragraph they list some weapons that will negate FNP. Note how they are all weapons that will never invoke an armour save. AP1, AP2, power weapons and then the word "ETC" which means that the list is not all inclusive.

 

No, there is no such implication. If a model is "unpainted", you must have attempted to paint it but failed? Obviously no. "Un" means "it never happened", not "it could have happened, but did not".

Thus, any wound you take that gets past your save (for whatever reason) is an "unsaved wound"- even if you never rolled a save for that wound. You don't have to try to save something for it to be unsaved- you just have to not make a successful save, for whatever reason.

The reason they didn't use the word "unsavable" is because FNP works against wounds that could have been saved just as well as those that could not. The rules do list many specific wound sources that negate FNP, all of which never allow an armor save for ANYBODY. It would be very odd oversight not to put "weapons whose AP deny the target an armor save" on that list, as opposed to only those very unusual sources of wounds that deny ALL armor saves to EVERYBODY.

 

It specifially says that FNP wont work against weapons where no Armour Save is possible. If you can show me how you will get an Armour save with a marine vs an AP3 weapon then I will concede your point.

 

Wrong. It specifically says "Neither can it be used... against any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken". Which is entirely different in meaning from your paraphrasing. A marine can't make an armour save vs an AP3 gun, but a terminator can; thus an AP 3 gun is not one "against which no armour save can ever be taken".

 

By your logic, if you somehow managed to give FNP to a guardsman he would be able to use a FNP save vs a heavy bolter??? Interesting.

Yes, exactly. It IS more interesting that way. Putting a pain boy in with orcs that have a 6+ save would be really stupid if any AP6 or better gun denied them FNP, but since it does work against most guns, it is in fact... interesting. There's also a cities of death stratagems that can grant any unit FNP, which again would be quite uninteresting if so many units got no benefit from it.

[Gornall]

1. The word "unsaved" refers to wounds that are unsavable as well as failed armour saves. If someone could point me to the relevant page where is says that unsavable wounds are refered to as "unsaved" I would be greatfull and would go a long way to turning me around on this.

 

Page 39 BRB "Determine Assault Results:

 

To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of UNSAVED wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents. The side that caused the most is the winner.

 

If your premise that unsaved=failed saves was correct (I am arguing it's not), then power weapons would have no result in combat. Neither would wounds given to models with no possible save, as they would not be taking saves, therefore NOT failing saves, therefore taking NO unsaved wounds. Fearless Kroot anyone?

 

My argument is that GW uses this terminology for combats and shooting: Hits, Wounds, (possible saves), and then UNSAVED Wounds. Unsaved Wounds encompasses both failed saves and wounds that had no saves possible and therefore went through to completion. This definition of "unsaved" is consistent with the BRB, indicating that Marines still get to take FNP against AP3 weapons (unless they're Str 8).

 

FYI... Cassius can take FNP on Krak Missile shots. ;)

[Thantoes]

Well I am home now and have read through the BRB, looking at assault, shooting and special rules and while I still think the wording is ambiguous and that there are merits to my arguments, I can see the sense of how you are all arguing the issue. I dont agree with it but think I will have to go along with it.

 

Boo to having to concede but there you go. Also, I would rather have an argument here than during a game

[Legatus]

Also, I would rather have an argument here than during a game

A very reasonable attitude.

[Isiah]

A good outcome all round here then. Thantoes I like your philosphy :tu: and your attitude to the conclusion.

[werewolf_nr]

FNP is spelled out nicely in this edition. AP3 should allow.

[Grey Mage]

Sometimes i feel like a discussion killer so here it goes.

 

A captain has a command squad and apothecary, so he has FNP. He is in 3+ armor, and has the 4+ rosarius.

 

He is shot and wounded with a AP3 weapon. He has to take the 4+ invulnerable save. He fails the save, poor guy. He then rolls a FNP dice, on a 4+ he ignores the wound. He rolls a 5, so lives to drink about it.

 

The rest of the command group is not so lucky. Having no invulnerable saves to an AP3 weapon, they cannot roll a save. The marines that were assigned wounds take the wounds and die...

 

Next plant fall the Captain takes along a librarian with force dome. Now his whole entourage has a 5+ invulnerable save. FNP can help them all against AP3 weapons but not anything with lower AP or with S8 and higher.

 

Captain and entourage gets hit by a S8 AP- barbed strangler. Except for those lucky enough to pass their 3+ saves, they all FEEL THE PAIN...just for an instant though, being instant death and all....

 

Sorry, not only does that not work, but it doesnt work with the idea that if you ignore that units armor you ignore their FNP save aswell. Why? Because an invulnerable save is NOT an armor save. So the Captain would not be able to use FNP either.

[Lord Humongous]

Boo to having to concede but there you go. Also, I would rather have an argument here than during a game :devil:

 

Indeed, that's the prime reason I read forums like this. Although more often its an ugly surprise / missed opportunity than an argument. What you don't know CAN hurt you.

[ZouaveCapt]

Aren't we also focusing a bit too much on Armor Save = Save. There are also cover saves, which you might elect to take over an armor save (say, if your scouts had FNP, and had a 3+ cover save vs. a 4+ armor save. Now, of course, the scouts aren't even going to take an armor save, they'll attempt a cover save, which they fail. That counts as an unsaved wound, with no relation at all to your armor save. I think one of the fallacies in this argument is linking "unsaved wound" and "un-armor saved wound"...

 

Seems like its been decided though, but thought I'd toss that out for consideration.

[shatter]

Goodness.

 

GW was talking about phase resolution.

1 hits

2 wounds

3 wounds taken

 

Between 2 and 3 is a save phase.

 

Get some? ok. Failed some? Yes? Didn't get to roll? Yeah, a couple.

Unsaved. OKAY WAITS! I HAVE TEH FNP!

 

That is simply the hit/wound resolution procedure they were describing and FNP's place in it.

 

FNP failure exceptions? Sure: AP1, AP2, ID and specific armour ignoring stuff. That's it.

 

However, something inside me really wants to rationalise it into something like... i have the protection to roll A save for that shot but it failed, gimmie my FNP. Rules don't say it that way.

 

As an side, this morning I whispered 'the emperor loves me' and rolled 12 dice. They were all sixes. The odds are mad and I can't stop thinking about it. It's not like it's something I do every morning either. In FACT, I'd never done such a thing before. Playing with dice pointlessly was something I did as a teenager practicing with a d20. (lol)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

FNP is only denied if;

 

- The weapon causes Instant Death (ie it's double your Toughness, or has a special rule which makes it inflict ID regardless)

- The weapon is AP1 or AP2

- A close-combat attack that ignores armour saves (neatly covering all power weapons, MC attacks and other weirder stuff that comes to the same thing)

 

In all other situations, you get your FNP save. Enjoy, you dirty Nurgle and Nob Biker players <_< :cry:

 

Thats it. Show's over. Mods can lock this thread now.