How many grey knights are there?

[chaplain belisarius]

How many grey knights are there and also how many grey knight grand masters are there?

 

thanks!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Short answer: No idea :)

 

Long answer: See above, but also....

 

We know that the title of 'Grandmaster' is plural in the case of Grey Knights, for three reasons. Firstly, a conclave of 3 Grandmasters was sent to Armageddon to send Angron back to the warp (each Grandmaster leading a contigent of about 100 Grey Knights. Also, in the novel 'Grey Knights' by Ben Counter, the first banishment of Gargatuloth is conduced by a similiar conclave of 3 Grandmasters (again, each leading a seperate contigent of 100 Grey Knights). In the first deployment (to cleanse Armageddon), there were only two survivors (which we can only assume were two of the three Grandmasters). In the 2nd deployment, no one came back, and the only body they could find was Grandmaster Mandulis.

Also, one GK Grandmaster sits on the Council of Terra, with the same authority as a High Lord.

 

- A rough estimate is around 6 Grandmasters, perhaps as many as 8 at any time. It's not a restrictive thing, and promotion to the rank only comes at the consent of the other Grandmasters.

 

Because the Grey Knights are non-Codex (they're a Chapter created entirely to aid the Ordo Malleus), it's reasonable to assume their numbers are not constrained by the Codex Astartes. Given that they have to deploy all across the Imperium in support of Malleus Inquisitors, and their crucial role at holding the Cadian Gate during the 13th Black Crusade, around 2,000-3,000 active battle-brothers would seem reasonable. Remember, their requirements and induction process are extremely harsh, weeding out all but the most powerful and resiliant psykers they select as initiates. They also draw upon significant resources in their creation, ranging from their Aegis suits and mysterious gene-seed, to the rare and custom-made Malleus strike-cruisers they deploy from.

 

- Around 2,000-3,000 would be expected, although the true number is completely unknown. Suffice to say, there are never enough, and the situation at the Eye is currently tying up most of the Chapter as they struggle to stem the tide of traitors and daemons pouring out.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Firstly, a conclave of 3 Grandmasters was sent to Armageddon to send Angron back to the warp (each Grandmaster leading a contigent of about 100 Grey Knights.

:P I thought it was Brother-Captain Aurellian and 100 GKTs.

 

Also, one GK Grandmaster sits on the Council of Terra, with the same authority as a High Lord.

 

No, he sits on the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition, the body that reports to the Inquisitorial Representative (he's the High Lord).

[Prathios]

I think Tyrak is correct. I don't think 400 GKT's were there at Armageddon. And if I recall there are only 4 GM's. I can't remember where I read it though. Again though as Tyrak said he sits on the inner conclave.

[Thaelion Hexis]

I thought it was Brother-Captain Aurellian and 100 GKTs.

 

That bit I am in agreement with. Anything beyond, I have no knowledge of. I recall the tale in White Dwarf, I think near the release of Daemon Hunters.

 

No, he sits on the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition, the body that reports to the Inquisitorial Representative (he's the High Lord).

 

Also correct, to my knowledge. Although I do wonder, is the Inner Conclave made of high ranking representitives of each Ordo, or is the Grand Master a member of a purely Malleus council? I am assuming it is the governing council of the Inquisition as a whole, reporting to the Inquisitorial Representative on Terra.

 

And if I recall there are only 4 GM's.

 

I was not aware of any fixed number. Merely those who reach the requirements, whome are naturally few in number.

 

As to the number of Grey Knights, that is one of The Imperium's secrets, for they are a secret order. I would say a few thousand. More than a single chapter, though obviously far less than Space Marines in general, due to the harshness of training, the specific qualities required etc.

[Melissia]

I'm feeling generaous, and thinking between three thousand and six thousand-- but really, this is entirelly conjecture.

[killersquid]

It is classified. I doubt there will be any solid information on how many there are. I guess one could always just make up a number if it is desperately necessary, but no matter how many there are it is not enough.

[Kaled100]

Although I do wonder, is the Inner Conclave made of high ranking representitives of each Ordo, or is the Grand Master a member of a purely Malleus council? I am assuming it is the governing council of the Inquisition as a whole, reporting to the Inquisitorial Representative on Terra.

Well, the Ordo Malleus is the only part of the Inquisition that has a formal hierarchy - there is no governing body of the Inquisition, even the Inquisitorial Representative technically has no more authority than even the most recently promoted Inquisitor (he does however have a lot more power due to his position at the centre of Imperial politics).

 

However, it is termed the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition, so my best guess based on the evidence is that it is a permament conclave that includes the Inquisitor Lords who may act as the Inquisitorial Representative (the position is often shared by a number of Lords), as well as their closest advisors such as a Grey Knight Grandmaster, a Deathwatch captain, emissaries from the segmentum conclaves and representatives from the various Ordos etc. The conclave would meet, debate Inquisitorial policy (if such a thing could be said to exist given the fractured nature of the Inquisition) and discuss any threats felt worthy of the attention of the High Lords. Then the Inquisitorial Representative would take the results of their discussion to the Senatorum (indeed, the role of Inquisitorial Representative is sometimes said to be little more than a messenger - he communicates the will of the Inquisition, not his own). I believe the Inner Conclave is not so much a governing body, but more a forum for debating issues that affect the Inquisition as a whole and one that has the ear of the High Lords.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Well, the Ordo Malleus is the only part of the Inquisition that has a formal hierarchy - there is no governing body of the Inquisition, even the Inquisitorial Representative technically has no more authority than even the most recently promoted Inquisitor (he does however have a lot more power due to his position at the centre of Imperial politics).

 

However, it is termed the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition, so my best guess based on the evidence is that it is a permament conclave that includes the Inquisitor Lords who may act as the Inquisitorial Representative (the position is often shared by a number of Lords), as well as their closest advisors such as a Grey Knight Grandmaster, a Deathwatch captain, emissaries from the segmentum conclaves and representatives from the various Ordos etc. The conclave would meet, debate Inquisitorial policy (if such a thing could be said to exist given the fractured nature of the Inquisition) and discuss any threats felt worthy of the attention of the High Lords. Then the Inquisitorial Representative would take the results of their discussion to the Senatorum (indeed, the role of Inquisitorial Representative is sometimes said to be little more than a messenger - he communicates the will of the Inquisition, not his own). I believe the Inner Conclave is not so much a governing body, but more a forum for debating issues that affect the Inquisition as a whole and one that has the ear of the High Lords.

 

I suspect it just means it's a standing conclave. Normally, conclaves are called as and when they are needed.

[jeffersonian000]

From my reading, I worked out that there is about 1 Grandmaster per 300 knights, or roughly 10 Grandmasters for their 3000+ suggested chapter size. This is based on the facted that 1 Grandmaster led 300 knights in one of the battles for Armagedon, and that GW tends to latch on to popular history such as the 300 Spartans.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Iapetus]

No, he sits on the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition, the body that reports to the Inquisitorial Representative (he's the High Lord).

 

not to get off topic, but that guy would be one hell of a special character for the inquisition...

[killersquid]

From my reading, I worked out that there is about 1 Grandmaster per 300 knights, or roughly 10 Grandmasters for their 3000+ suggested chapter size. This is based on the facted that 1 Grandmaster led 300 knights in one of the battles for Armagedon, and that GW tends to latch on to popular history such as the 300 Spartans.

 

SJ

 

 

I quite like the sounds of that actually, a very romantic ideal to it.

[Kaled100]

I suspect it just means it's a standing conclave. Normally, conclaves are called as and when they are needed.

Within the Inquisition, 'Conclave' refers to two things. The first are meetings called as and when necessary, but there are also permament regional Conclaves such as the Calixian Conclave, which consists of the Inquisitors working in the Calixis sector (these sometimes go by other names, such as the Ordos Helican). My impression is that the latter is just a standing form of the former, and the Inner Conclave is another permament Conclave.

 

not to get off topic, but that guy would be one hell of a special character for the inquisition...

Probably not, after all promotion to that position is not granted based on martial prowess (in fact, martial prowess is not necessarily a criteria for becoming an acolyte, nevermind an Inquisitor or Lord). For all we know the current Inquisitorial Representative might just be a weedy old man with a huge intellect and tons of political savvy who would be of little practical use on the battlefield.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Probably not, after all promotion to that position is not granted based on martial prowess (in fact, martial prowess is not necessarily a criteria for becoming an acolyte, nevermind an Inquisitor or Lord). For all we know the current Inquisitorial Representative might just be a weedy old man with a huge intellect and tons of political savvy who would be of little practical use on the battlefield.

 

Yeah, the Lord Inquisitors do consider being Inquisitorial Representative to be something of a chore, you have to spend your days keeping the bickering to a minimum. Plus your only drinking buddies are the Grand Master of Assassins and the Grand Provost Marshal. :D

 

If it was chosen on martial prowess, I'd say the least skilled (in combat) of the Grand Masters would get the job. You don't want the best warrior in the Imperium stuck behind a desk.

 

Alternately, it may not be a permanent position and they just have one Grand Master 'on call' nearby in case a meeting is called.

[Prathios]

Probably not, after all promotion to that position is not granted based on martial prowess (in fact, martial prowess is not necessarily a criteria for becoming an acolyte, nevermind an Inquisitor or Lord). For all we know the current Inquisitorial Representative might just be a weedy old man with a huge intellect and tons of political savvy who would be of little practical use on the battlefield.

 

Yeah, the Lord Inquisitors do consider being Inquisitorial Representative to be something of a chore, you have to spend your days keeping the bickering to a minimum. Plus your only drinking buddies are the Grand Master of Assassins and the Grand Provost Marshal. :P

 

If it was chosen on martial prowess, I'd say the least skilled (in combat) of the Grand Masters would get the job. You don't want the best warrior in the Imperium stuck behind a desk.

 

Alternately, it may not be a permanent position and they just have one Grand Master 'on call' nearby in case a meeting is called.

 

Actually Marshal Paul posted a thread based on this idea back in 07. His suggestion was that this GM was like an Inquisitor GM that gets all the "fun" cases. When the =][= gets a seriously tough case that they know is going to lead to bloodshed and worlds burning they put him on the case. Honestly I think Abnett could write a book based on this idea that could set the new standard since Eisenhorn. Its a very intriguing idea stemmed from a very unique individual. I'd love to see someone at the BL do something with this.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

I suspect it just means it's a standing conclave. Normally, conclaves are called as and when they are needed.

Within the Inquisition, 'Conclave' refers to two things. The first are meetings called as and when necessary, but there are also permament regional Conclaves such as the Calixian Conclave, which consists of the Inquisitors working in the Calixis sector (these sometimes go by other names, such as the Ordos Helican). My impression is that the latter is just a standing form of the former, and the Inner Conclave is another permament Conclave.

 

not to get off topic, but that guy would be one hell of a special character for the inquisition...

Probably not, after all promotion to that position is not granted based on martial prowess (in fact, martial prowess is not necessarily a criteria for becoming an acolyte, nevermind an Inquisitor or Lord). For all we know the current Inquisitorial Representative might just be a weedy old man with a huge intellect and tons of political savvy who would be of little practical use on the battlefield.

 

Quote 1 at least allows for the possibility that the guy doesn't have to be the "Kenny" of the Ordo simply based on the fact that conclaves are on an as needed basis. He would have a lot of time on his hands and could get involved in very specialized assignments as Prathios pointed out.

 

My gut says that a high level =][= would be pretty salty after all those years of service and would have the, shall we say - "intestinal fortitude" to do whatever he wanted and tell the rest of the administorum where they could stick it.

 

Not trying to imply what you say isn't plausable (quote 2). I can totally see an =][= who was a torture / interrogation specialist and never did field work, spending a lot of time interrogating and reporting findings back to high profile politicos that would get tapped for the job...

[Kaled100]

Alternately, it may not be a permanent position and they just have one Grand Master 'on call' nearby in case a meeting is called.

That strikes me as the most likely option. Grandmasters probably spend a portion of their service at the Ordo Malleus fortress on Titan, and it would be they who would be called upon to speak at the Inner Conclave. Alternatively, a Grandmaster who is 'retired' from front-line duties, perhaps due to injury, might perform such a role (as well as training recruits etc).

 

Actually Marshal Paul posted a thread based on this idea back in 07. His suggestion was that this GM was like an Inquisitor GM that gets all the "fun" cases. When the =][= gets a seriously tough case that they know is going to lead to bloodshed and worlds burning they put him on the case.

But why send the Grandmaster, rather than 'ordering' an Inquisitor to look into it? There are plenty of Inquisitors (and Inquisitorial agents) who are perfectly capable of handling an assignment that is likely to turn to bloodshed. After all, Grey Knights are warriors, not investigators and if you already know a warrior is what's needed then surely you'd send a message to the nearest group of Grey Knights (or whoever) and let them deal with it rather than wasting time by sending someone from Terra. The only time I can see the Grandmaster being ordered to go in person is if it were some big event like the Black Crusades, and the Inner Conclave wanted someone they knew at the front-lines. Even so, any Inquisitors who sit on the Conclave are likely to already have networks of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of trusted and competent agents who could be dispatched instead.

 

The big problem I see with that idea is that Inquisitors tend to be very independant, often not even informing the regional conclave covering the area they are operating in about what they are doing. Therefore it's likely that by the time news reaches the Inner Conclave there would already be a cabal of Inquisitors who had banded together to deal with the problem. The Inner Conclave should be discussing the big picture, not individual investigations - debating threats that effect the entire Imperium not individual planets or sectors.

 

My gut says that a high level =][= would be pretty salty after all those years of service and would have the, shall we say - "intestinal fortitude" to do whatever he wanted and tell the rest of the administorum where they could stick it.

I meant physically weak, intellectually he'd have to be very strong and would definitely be able to tell the Administratum where to stick it. I see no reason why he should be a great warrior. Inquisitor Lords may have better stats in the codices, but that has absolutely no justification in the background - it's purely for gameplay reasons. Inquisitors do not necessarily recruit acolytes based on martial prowess, and neither is promotion to Inquisitor based on an acolytes skills as a warrior. An Inquisitor Lords role is to guide and oversee the rest of the Inquisition, and as such he would have less time for field work and combat training, thus it is reasonable to suppose that they would not be as good warriors as their younger more virile peers (of course there will be exceptions). The same would be doubly true for the Inquisitorial Representative - his skill at arms won't have garnered him that position, and he's going to spend a lot of his time in meetings, conclaves etc while his network of trusted agents carry out investigations for him.

 

Remember that the Inquisitors you see in games of 40k are a minority in the Inquisition - most Inquisitors prefer to work behind the scenes rather than lead huge armies. If you want to see the way most Inquisitors work, then you need to look at things like Dark Heresy and Inquisitor. Most Inquisitors run vast networks of agents, with trusted acolytes prosecuting their investigations under authority from the Inquisitor, and the Inquisitor himself only stepping in when necessary. Inquisitors are generally more like a senior member of the CIA than a general in the army.

[Prathios]

Actually Marshal Paul posted a thread based on this idea back in 07. His suggestion was that this GM was like an Inquisitor GM that gets all the "fun" cases. When the =][= gets a seriously tough case that they know is going to lead to bloodshed and worlds burning they put him on the case.

But why send the Grandmaster, rather than 'ordering' an Inquisitor to look into it? There are plenty of Inquisitors (and Inquisitorial agents) who are perfectly capable of handling an assignment that is likely to turn to bloodshed. After all, Grey Knights are warriors, not investigators and if you already know a warrior is what's needed then surely you'd send a message to the nearest group of Grey Knights (or whoever) and let them deal with it rather than wasting time by sending someone from Terra. The only time I can see the Grandmaster being ordered to go in person is if it were some big event like the Black Crusades, and the Inner Conclave wanted someone they knew at the front-lines. Even so, any Inquisitors who sit on the Conclave are likely to already have networks of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of trusted and competent agents who could be dispatched instead.

 

The big problem I see with that idea is that Inquisitors tend to be very independant, often not even informing the regional conclave covering the area they are operating in about what they are doing. Therefore it's likely that by the time news reaches the Inner Conclave there would already be a cabal of Inquisitors who had banded together to deal with the problem. The Inner Conclave should be discussing the big picture, not individual investigations - debating threats that effect the entire Imperium not individual planets or sectors.

 

 

 

Actually it would be for cases that they knew full well would get to hairy for a human. Why send an Inquisitor to his unnecessary death, inquisitors are a valuable resource. So the idea was that at these meetings the GM would simply take the most important of the cases himself and deal with it using the only force that could actually get the job done. And saying they are warriors is true but the Emperor did not create his finest to be stupid. They have been many things including detectives and diplomats. So its by no means a stretch.

[Kaled100]

Actually it would be for cases that they knew full well would get to hairy for a human. Why send an Inquisitor to his unnecessary death, inquisitors are a valuable resource.

But why send the Grandmaster? Why not just send in whichever force are best placed to respond? Just because an Inquisitor is present, doesn't mean he has to be at the front line of the fighting or put at unnecessary risk. He could stay up in orbit and let his forces handle the investigation and ensuing combat - see Dark Adeptus for an example of what I mean.

 

So the idea was that at these meetings the GM would simply take the most important of the cases himself and deal with it using the only force that could actually get the job done.

What cases? It's not as if cases are handed down through the hierarchy of the Inquisition with the Inner Conclave or Inquisitorial Representative having sight of all investigations that are ongoing and picking and choosing who is assigned to what. As I said, the Inner Conclave is there to debate the threats to the Imperium and decide what action needs to be taken and report to the Senatorum - it shouldn't be getting involved in individual investigations.

[Secondwind]

In regards to the number of GK's i'd say the guess of 3-6 thousand sounds about right to me.

 

To answer what we have gone onto in regards to the inner conclave etc. I think I need to explain some of my thoughts regarding how Grey Knights operate. First up the GK's are attached to the ordo malleus only to the point of getting the job done effectively if GK's could do it better on their own they probably would. In many ways they are still independant though as they are still space marines and no matter how powerful an inquisitior you are if you can only "request" for grey knight forces, you can not order it like you could imperial guard.

 

The chapter structure of the GK's supports how squads work so spread around the galaxy and there is no central head figure ala chapter master due to this widespread nature. As such you need many leaders who can operate independently and together to keep the chapter operational - the role of the Grand Master.

 

The Grand Masters I see are exceptional leaders who will recieve the requests for aid by any inquisitor and decide if, and who, to send to deal with the matter. They also tend to the co-ordination of larger Grey Knight forces in some of the toughest larger scale conficts where failure is not an option or it is decided that it will need a grand masters skills to accomplish.

 

The position on the inner conclave of the inquisition I think will be to show "face" and to defend / represent the chapter in matters that involve it. I see this as a way of showing mutual support in the "higher" inquisitorial lords (who have clearly gotten there with having lots of lesser inquisitors backing, supporting grey knight efforts, wide information networks etc - all of which are useful for the chapter) for as superhuman GK's are they still have to deal with "normal" humans and the annoying political nature of the inquisition.

 

Which GM sits on the inner conclave? I dont think it matters, I believe that it will probably be constantly changing according to how the meetings occur and who is needed where the vast majority of grand masters will be out in the field with a few dealing with chapter organisational duties but I think they will all be able to take on any role they are required to do.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Alternately, it may not be a permanent position and they just have one Grand Master 'on call' nearby in case a meeting is called.

That strikes me as the most likely option. Grandmasters probably spend a portion of their service at the Ordo Malleus fortress on Titan, and it would be they who would be called upon to speak at the Inner Conclave. Alternatively, a Grandmaster who is 'retired' from front-line duties, perhaps due to injury, might perform such a role (as well as training recruits etc).

 

The Grey Knights maintain a fighting strength on Titan, it could well be that a Grand Master is always 'holding the fort' there.

 

Actually it would be for cases that they knew full well would get to hairy for a human. Why send an Inquisitor to his unnecessary death, inquisitors are a valuable resource.

 

Why send the Grey Knights, they are an even more valuable resource? Why even use Space Marines, they are a valuable resource too. :D

 

If it has been brought to the attention of the Space Marines/Inquisition/Grey Knights, then it's well past the run of the mill attritional IG campaign. These are situations where the Imperium has to stand and fight. The value of the resources put into it only matters when it is time to count the cost.

[Kaled100]

In many ways they are still independant though as they are still space marines and no matter how powerful an inquisitior you are if you can only "request" for grey knight forces, you can not order it like you could imperial guard.

Nice post - I think that's a pretty good assessment of how the Grey Knights operate. However, Inquisitorial authority does apply to the Astartes, and technically an Inquisitor can order a chapter master around just as he would a guardsman, administratum adept or astropath. In practice though, the Astartes value their independence and generally answer only to their chapter and the Emperor. While an Inquisitor is within his authority to order them around, it's generally better to tread softly and 'request' their assistance. Angering a chapter is only likely to result in the Inquisitor suffering a nasty 'accident'. Just thought it was worth making the distinction clear.

 

EDIT: Rereading what you've written I think you're ascribing too much autonomy to the Grey Knights. The chapter is duty bound to the Ordo Malleus - to quote Dark Heresy 'unlike most [Chapters], they do not act completely independently - they are commanded by the Ordo Malleus'. The Grey Knights are the military arm of the Ordo Malleus, I haven't been able to find any source that gives the Grey Knights similar independence to other chapters. Although an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor is likely to treat a member of the Grey Knights more as an equal than a sub-ordinate out of respect for their prowess, it seems to me that the Inquisitor is the one with the authority.

[Eltnot]

I think estimations of 3000+ are way to high.

Admittedly I haven't read the novels but the one fact that stands out to me is the 300 at Armegeddon. If you had 3000 battle ready troops at your disposal, would you send only a force of 300 to fight what you know could be a major daemon incursion? They could have sent 500 or even 1000 and maybe more then 2 would have survived the fight.

 

If the Grey Knights can only spare 300 for a fight such as this, then the likelyhood of them having 3000+ up their sleeves seems rather unlikely. If they did, why aren't their records of GK's fighting in large numbers on worlds like Tallarn and Mordia where there was in fact large scale daemon incursions?

 

Further if you look at the fact that fluff wise, GK's are normally only commit a squad at a time, they could still cover 100 separate incidents at a given time whilst keeping half of the force in the fort ready for deployment with only a total size of 1000.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

If the Grey Knights can only spare 300 for a fight such as this, then the likelyhood of them having 3000+ up their sleeves seems rather unlikely. If they did, why aren't their records of GK's fighting in large numbers on worlds like Tallarn and Mordia where there was in fact large scale daemon incursions?

 

Galaxy's a big place, y'know.

 

And it's 100 GKTs on Armageddon. The Space Wolves made up the rest.

[Melissia]

Indeed, remember that unlike normal chapters the Grey Knights protect the entire galaxy, not one part of it.