How many grey knights are there?

[Secondwind]

The number at armageddon seems to vary from the readings of different fluff - some have said 100 others have gone up to 300. I'd say that 200-300 sounds more sensible. The reason there probably wasnt more of the GK's there was most likely cause the rest were busy. Armageddon is important but if you loose 20-40 other worlds inorder to bring more grey knights for a single battle it might not be worthwhile.

 

The number of 3000-6000 GK's seems sensible to me because there are normal marine chapters rivalling in size or are larger.

The grey knights are typically going to be very spread out normally forming up as 5 to 15 marines in what id think is 90% of cases. If you think of it in this way then if you had 6000 grey knights and you had them all in 5 man squads you have the potential to defend 1200 worlds, 10 man squads 600 worlds and thats not even counting in for all the marines who are involved in larger conflicts, being transported to a new zone, incorrect information or are involved near or in the eye of terror... You could easily bring the actual battles on planets that grey knights are involved with at any one time to 300-500 which considering the supposedly huge size of the imperium seems rather small.

 

note: thats also taking a best case scenario of 6000 grey knights, if you think the imperium is smaller or just less grey knights go for 3000 and youll see that number shrinks alot.

 

 

Kaled: I disagree and agree in what you've said, I think what I was trying to get across was not too clear. I believe grey knights are like other astartes that they are independant though I stand corrected with what you say that inquisitorial authority does stand over them.

 

I see it as space marines being powerful and independent enough in their military actions to make it difficult for the inquisitor if he "ordered" for this and that, forcing them to couch their orders as requests in a case of saving face, (think how often we say at the kitchen table - "could you pass me the salt" over "give me the salt" they both say the same thing but one is politer by giving the other person the option to refuse.) by claiming the forces were tied up elsewhere or using other means.

 

The inquisitor could hinder a chapter using his power to force a gene seed inspection etc. but would probably find his work suddenly becomes very very difficult due to a chapter probably having enough sway with dealings with other inquisitors. These are political means which will bipass any of the higher powers that most inquisitors can use against a chapter without solid evidence or backing or throw that inquisitor into disrepute.

 

 

 

--Ok enough about normal space marines what about grey knights? I see that they are in a similar situation as normal astartes yet are far greater embroiled in the political environment that the inquisition is. The job they do working alongside inquisitors has created many bonds over the centuries of hunting daemons so while they are in essence independent like regular astartes their bonds and operations with the ordo malleus has made them "attached" to the point of almost inseperability. Does that make inquisitors bosses? No I dont think so, I'm sure all inquisitors who live long enough learn fast that bonds and debts and earning respect with certain allies will be very beneficial in the long run and though you may be right and true, dealing with things incorrectly can easily cause a fall from grace -eg. Inquisitor Lord Karamazov codex WH.

 

P.S. Lastly I think most inquisitors will not order grey knights about simply because they dont need to, their jobs are usually for the same goal and any sensible requests will not be ignored, though some further requests may be issued if the GK's have a different opinion of the situation.

 

 

-Woah didnt mean to say so much, tired now ^^'

[Prathios]

I think estimations of 3000+ are way to high.

Admittedly I haven't read the novels but the one fact that stands out to me is the 300 at Armegeddon. If you had 3000 battle ready troops at your disposal, would you send only a force of 300 to fight what you know could be a major daemon incursion? They could have sent 500 or even 1000 and maybe more then 2 would have survived the fight.

 

If the Grey Knights can only spare 300 for a fight such as this, then the likelyhood of them having 3000+ up their sleeves seems rather unlikely. If they did, why aren't their records of GK's fighting in large numbers on worlds like Tallarn and Mordia where there was in fact large scale daemon incursions?

 

Further if you look at the fact that fluff wise, GK's are normally only commit a squad at a time, they could still cover 100 separate incidents at a given time whilst keeping half of the force in the fort ready for deployment with only a total size of 1000.

 

This is a perfect example of why there is likely more than 3000. You only saw and heard about the 100GKT at Armageddon. What you didn't see is the six other daemonic invasions around the galaxy at the same time that never made the papers cause the other 3400 GK were already on it.

 

(Yeah I just pulled a number out of the aether but it made the point right?)

[Kaled100]

Secondwind - I agree with on on regular chapters, I think we're basically saying the same thing in different terms. However I still disagree on the independence of the Grey Knights. Going back to the early days of Slaves to Darkness, we can see that the intention was that the Grey Knights were not at all independent from the Ordo Malleus - they are as much a part of it as they are Astartes.

Although technically Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights are, to all intents and purposes, part of the Inquisition... and by tradition their Chapter Master has always been an Inquisitor of the Ordo rather than a Space Marine.

This is basically saying much the same as the quote I posted from Dark Heresy;

unlike most [Chapters], they do not act completely independently - they are commanded by the Ordo Malleus

These are some of the oldest and most recent quotes I can find concerning the relationship between the Grey Knights and the Ordo, and I can't find anything in between that outright contradicts that (not saying it doesn't exist though, and I can find a lot of vague quotes that could be interpreted on way or the other). It also ties in with the fact that the Grey Knights do not have a Chapter Master - they are commanded by the Ordo (and in a reciprocal arrangement, presumably as a symbol of the unity between the Grey Knights and Inquisitors, a Grey Knights Grand Master sits on the Inner Conclave).

 

The Grey Knights are the military arm of the Ordo Malleus, a scalpel to be wielded by the Inquisitors of the Ordo when conventional forces are not sufficient. When it comes to the actual planning and execution of the military operation, an Inquisitor would no doubt generally defer to the expertise and experience of the Grey Knight commanding the detachment but I don't see anything to support them acting independently of the Ordo. The closest I can see to that is some Inquisitor Lord despatching a detachment of Grey Knight on a mission and granting them authority to act as they see fit.

 

Going back to the question about the number of Grand Masters - it would seem to make most sense if there was one Grand Master attached to every major Ordo Malleus fortress (he wouldn't necessarily be present at the fortress, it would be more of an administrative posting). We know that one role of the Inquisitor Lords is to marshall the resources of the Ordo, and so it would make sense that the senior Malleus Inquisitor Lord in that area would look at the requests for aid from his Inquisitors and decide which to answer, and the corresponding Grand Master would then decide what forces under his command to actually dispatch. The two would work in partnership to combat threats from the enemy beyond - I don't see why there should be any sort of schism between the military and investigative wings of the Ordo, they're two parts of the same whole, dedicated to the same ends (and I think we at least agree on that last point).

[jeffersonian000]

I think people fail to realize that Inquisition is not an organized entity, but a sprawling administrative beast based on a "cell" system with an Inquisitor effectively on his/her own surrounded by only their hand selected acolytes and associates. In this the Grey Knights are both the same and different; they are same in that they too are divided up into smaller "cells" or strike teams, yet different in that they are highly organized with a very specific hierarchy. This means that we can look at Grey Knights as being just as independent as any other Inquisitor cell, yet more focused and with greater immediate resources at hand. They are the military arm of the Ordo Malleus, not the armed and armoured lap dogs of the Ordo Malleus. Where an Inquisitor’s cadre investigates, a Knight’s strike team will surgically strike. They work hand in hand rather than one for the other. This is supported in fluff by the mention that Grey Knight Grand Masters nominate one of their peers to sit of the highest council of the Inquisition as an equal, while the same can not be said for the Sisters of Battle or the Deathwatch.

 

As an aside, not to knock the Sisters, but they fulfill a different role than the Grey Knights, as they are the internal police force of the Administratum, under the Ecclesiarchy yet separate, and only on loan to the Ordo Hereticus as needed due more the two groups jurisdiction overlapping; i.e., they both ferret out heretics, mutants, and rogue psykers with the Sisters acting as a hammer to the Inquisitions anvil. The Deathwatch seems to be organized on a completely different level, with strike teams supported performing “black” operations that are closer to assassinations than the surgical strike we expect of the Grey Knights or the purifying flame of a Sisters of Battle mission.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Tyrak]

as they are the internal police force of the Administratum, under the Ecclesiarchy yet separate

 

The Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy are two different organisations. The Sisters are attached to the Ecclesiarchy, and affiliated with the Ordo Hereticus. There is no Administratum involvement other than for book-keeping.

[Melissia]

Correct. As the names suggest, the Administratum is essentially the main govermnetal organization, covering most non-religious, non-miltiary aspects of life. The Ecclesiarchy is the church, and is quite frankly equally powerful if not more powerful than the Administratum, with only a combination of the Adepta Soroeritas and some regulations put in place by Sebastian Thor keeping the authorities within the Ecclesiarchy from abusing this power more regularly than they already do. The Imperium of Man is highly religious, with even non-religious people giving lip service and money to the Ecclesiarchy because they're afraid of the consequences should they not do so (with the exception of Space Marine chapters, but even they would rather work alongside the Ecclesiarchy than against them to be sure).

[Kaled100]

I think people fail to realize that Inquisition is not an organized entity, but a sprawling administrative beast based on a "cell" system with an Inquisitor effectively on his/her own surrounded by only their hand selected acolytes and associates.

You're right, people don't tend to realise that (which is why I take pains to point it out pretty often), however while the Inquisition may not have a formal hierarchy, the Ordo Malleus is said to be far more rigid and organised, to the point of being controlled by a council of masters.

While that idea seems to be far less emphasised in the more recent fluff, is still gets the odd mention. This is why I tend to think of an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor as being a member of two organisations - as an Inquisitor he has absolute authority equal to that of every other Inquisitor, whereas as a member of the Malleus he gets access to the specialised resources of the Ordo, but has to take his place in a more formal hierarchy and may be 'ordered' to do things by the Inquisitor Lords who oversee the Ordo.

 

They are the military arm of the Ordo Malleus, not the armed and armoured lap dogs of the Ordo Malleus. Where an Inquisitor’s cadre investigates, a Knight’s strike team will surgically strike. They work hand in hand rather than one for the other.

While I would never suggest the Grey Knights are the 'armed and armoured lap dogs of the Ordo Malleus' and of course they do work hand in hand as opposed to being seperate organisations -at the end of the day the Inquisitor Lords are the ones who head the Ordo and have authority over both the Inquisitors and Grey Knights.

[Melissia]

By the weay, noticed this in a few peoples' posts... "the Inquisition" refers to all branches, not just the Witch Hunters/Ordo Hereticus. Daemonhunter Inquisitors are still, of course, Inquisitors, and part of the Inquisition. The Inquisition in general is not a nice organization, stop trying to make the Ordo Malleus look better by discluding the Order of the Hammer from the umbrella term of "Inquisition".

[jeffersonian000]

Who thinks the Inquisitor is nice? I love them because they are a bunch despotic fascists that stamp out every for or individuality that may or not cause a member of the flock of humanity to stray into the darkness of creativity and self discovery. Yet I can see through their eyes at the worlds around them, and know that each one truly believes he/she is doing the right thing for the good of the Empire. I can see them working is investigators, the order of the Soviet KGB or the US’s NSA, only with Judge Dread’s authority over life and death.

 

By the way, the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy are the same thing, which is where the break down occurs between the Empire and the Mechanicus. Be that as it may, it has no bearing on how many Grey Knights there are, nor as to their autonomy.

 

If we take the Inquisition’s cell system as a standard to measure by and apply it to a organization similar to a pre-heresy Space Marine legion, we get a picture of the Grey Knights life that goes something like this: Recruited, tested, augmented, mentored under a Justicar, earns terminator honours, leads/mentors as a Justicar, becomes a Brother Captain and now leads units rather than his own squad, becoming a senior enough Brother Captain that he is trusted to lead small groups of fellow Brother Captains with their entourage of Brother Knight squads, achieves Grand Master status with Brother Captains reporting to him and with him occasionally take a seat on the Inquisitorial council. A person of such stature can easily wield hundreds on fellow knights in battle as if they where a physical manifestation of his Nemesis weapon, command a battle barge and its attending fleet of strike cruisers, and effectively being a commander of a pre-heresy grand company of loyal Knight. If that is the case, then one Grand Master could very well command 300+ Knights with a small support fleet of his own. Now, if the Grey Knights have enough vessels to support operation in each Segmentum, they would have at least 5 such fleets in the field (1 per Segmentum), and 1 at home on/around Titan. This gives us a low number of approximately 1800+ Grey Knights at the lower end. And if there are 2 such fleets per Segmentum? We get our average number of 3000+.

 

Is there reason to assume a greater number than 10-12 “grand companies” of 300+ each led by a Grand Master?

 

SJ

[Kaled100]

By the way, the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy are the same thing, which is where the break down occurs between the Empire and the Mechanicus.

They are most definitley not the same thing - Tyrak & Melissa are correct. The Administratum is the arm of the Adeptus Terra responsible for levying tithes, distributing resources and generally the bureaucratic side of government. (The Departmento Munitorum is the part of the Administratum responsible for military affairs.) The Ecclesiarchy (also known as the Adeptus Ministorum) is not part of the Adeptus Terra, and maintains and promulgates the Imperial Cult. I.e. the Administratum is responsible for temporal affairs and the Ecclesiarchy for spiritual ones.

 

Back to the question of how many Grey Knights there are, the only quote concerning their size that I could find claimed that they were one of the largest chapters - as the Black Templars are generally held to be the largest, there would have to be less Grey Knights than Black Templars. (Not that that narrows it down much, but it puts a rough upper limit on estimates.)

 

Now, if the Grey Knights have enough vessels to support operation in each Segmentum, they would have at least 5 such fleets in the field (1 per Segmentum), and 1 at home on/around Titan. This gives us a low number of approximately 1800+ Grey Knights at the lower end. And if there are 2 such fleets per Segmentum? We get our average number of 3000+.

Why six rather than five? That puts two fleets in the Segmentum Solar - I hardly think Titan needs a Battlebarge and 300 Grey Knights to defend it, the Sol system is already the most heavily defended place in the Imperium.

[jeffersonian000]

Why six rather than five? That puts two fleets in the Segmentum Solar - I hardly think Titan needs a Battlebarge and 300 Grey Knights to defend it, the Sol system is already the most heavily defended place in the Imperium.

 

Quite simply, it would be the fleet of the Grand Master representing the Chapter on the Inquisitorial council. The fleet could be being refit, new brothers added to his "grand company", etc.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Why six rather than five? That puts two fleets in the Segmentum Solar - I hardly think Titan needs a Battlebarge and 300 Grey Knights to defend it, the Sol system is already the most heavily defended place in the Imperium.

 

Because we actually know that the GKs maintain a fighting strength on Titan. The issue would be whether there is another central grouping of GKs in the Segmentum Solar.

 

By the way, the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy are the same thing, which is where the break down occurs between the Empire and the Mechanicus. Be that as it may, it has no bearing on how many Grey Knights there are, nor as to their autonomy.

:RTBBB: It's quite clearly written in the fluff section :wallbash:

 

The Ecclesiarchy is the church, and is quite frankly equally powerful if not more powerful than the Administratum, with only a combination of the Adepta Soroeritas and some regulations put in place by Sebastian Thor keeping the authorities within the Ecclesiarchy from abusing this power more regularly than they already do.

 

Pre-Thorian reforms, the Ecclesiarchy was the biggest and most powerful faction. Post-Thorian reforms, it was replaced by the Administratum. At the moment, it's essentially playing politics with both hands tied behind it's back.

[Kaled100]

Because we actually know that the GKs maintain a fighting strength on Titan. The issue would be whether there is another central grouping of GKs in the Segmentum Solar.

That was my point - why would they have two groups based in the Segmentum Solar? There might be a fighting strength on Titan, but I imagine it would be far smaller than the amount based in an entire Segmentum, not of roughly equal size. I also don't see why the Grand Master for the Segmentum Solar couldn't be based on Titan and sit on the Inner Conclave whenever his duties allow. After all, it's unlikely he'd be there for every meeting and would probably be absent for years at a time (if the Inquisitorial Representative is often absent from the Senatorum, why shouldn't the Grand Master often be absent from the Inner Conclave?).

 

Is the consensus that a Brother-Captain commands around 100 Grey Knights? Because three Captains to one Grand Master to seems a little low to me (if we take the assumption that a Grand Master commands 300). I'd go for a ratio of at least one Grand Master to five Brother Captains each with 100 GKs, for a total of around 500 GKs per Segmentum which doesn't sound unreasonable. Or you could have more Grand Masters and have captains commanding a smaller number of knights...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I also don't see why the Grand Master for the Segmentum Solar couldn't be based on Titan and sit on the Inner Conclave whenever his duties allow. After all, it's unlikely he'd be there for every meeting and would probably be absent for years at a time (if the Inquisitorial Representative is often absent from the Senatorum, why shouldn't the Grand Master often be absent from the Inner Conclave?).

 

I'm not sure the Inquisitorial Representative is absent. The older fluff detailing how it worked had the five Lord Inquisitors, one for each Segmentum. The Inquisitorial Representative was one of these, but the position rotated between them every so often. The 'missing' Lord Inquisitor would be temporarily be succeeded by a senior Inquisitor Lord to keep his Segmentum tidy whilst the Lord Inquisitor was on Terra.

 

A similar situation could happen with the GKs, ie there is always one Grand Master on Titan (probably a good idea, seeing as someone needs to keep an eye on the Librarium Daemonica) as a rotating assignment, and the Grand Master present can sit on the Inner Conclave whenever it is called.

[Kaled100]

Apparently the Inquisitorial Representative is often absent and his vote is conferred by missive. The Inquisitorial Representative is elected from amongst the Inquisitor Lords of sectors surrounding Terra, and lords who have held the post are referred to as Inquisitor Lord Terran. I've heard the thing about him being one of the segmentum Lords, but I'm not familiar with the source -anyone know it?

[Prathios]

Who thinks the Inquisitor is nice? I love them because they are a bunch despotic fascists that stamp out every for or individuality that may or not cause a member of the flock of humanity to stray into the darkness of creativity and self discovery. Yet I can see through their eyes at the worlds around them, and know that each one truly believes he/she is doing the right thing for the good of the Empire. I can see them working is investigators, the order of the Soviet KGB or the US’s NSA, only with Judge Dread’s authority over life and death.

 

This is how I looked at them for a long time until something interesting hit me a while back. What they do actually is for the good of the Imperium. One of the main things that has to be acknowledged with 40k is that its a dangerous place to live. The men and women of the Imperium have to give up a great deal of the freedoms we all enjoy to simply keep breathing. Without watchdog groups like the Imperium snuffing out gene stealer cults and chaos daemon summoning groups the Imperium would have been destroyed thousands of years earlier. Inquisitors are cruel, hard, and despotic but its mostly (I say this cause there are some that would likely be this way anyway due to power corrupting) out of necessity.

 

Most of the horrible ugly fascistic principles of the Imperium are a reaction to the threats posed against it. It can't survive any other way. Can you even imagine how long it would take Nids, Orks, Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, or the Tau to overun Terra if every time a world was invaded the council of Terra had to debate it in a special hearing on human rights? "Now fellas, lets be fair, any action to stop the Tyranids may end up hurting someone, and we cant very well have that can we?" "Um, guys you can stop the debate, the worlds been destroyed by the Tyranids." "Ah, very good then. Just in time for tea."

[mrln68]

About the only thing you can be certain of is that there are more than a handful of them.

 

GW is horribly vague when it comes to things like this...

 

Even with the Angron story, the only thing which is for certain is that there were at least 100 GKT involved - and those were the ones who teleported directly into the center of things to face Angron. For all we know there were another 100 who were dealing with lesser chaos forces as well as a few hundred power armor GK who helped to secure the area.

 

There are also probably more GK strike forces than the half dozen or so speculated about here. The Codex mentions that the GK are often the first on the scene of a daemonic incursion and by the time normal Imperial forces arrive, the problem has been eliminated. Other than being in the right place at the right time - it may be likely that there is a rapid strike force of say 300 mixed GK for each Sector not Segmentum.

 

And the final clue to the size of the GK that I can think of is in the bit of fluff about the Flame Falcons. An entire Chapter of "hardy and courageous, even for Space Marines" Space Marines were killed off by the GK at the behest of an Inquisitor who thought they might be tainted. And it they weren't caught in the battle field by surprise, they were all at their homeworld - which would have likely been fortified against the Ork and Eldar pirates who were in the same neighborhood as Lethe. I would guess that in order to handle the task the GK probably outnumbered the Flame Falcons 2 to 1 in order to avoid devastating casualties [The Flame Falcon's were not chaos...so the normal anti-chaos benefits of the GK wouldn't have been too helpful]. Perhaps that force represented the combined forces of a Segmentum...

 

Anywho, as far as other records...just because there isn't any fluff saying that they were on Tallarn - doesn't mean they weren't there (In fact there is a picture in the IA book of a GK Dreadnought on Tallarn...). The Order is super secret - and even normal Space Marines who fight with them have there brains scrubbed and need to be bottle fed by a servitor till they learn to eat again. I don't think there are too many witnesses to what gets done by the GK (except when you have a Chapter Master...like on Armageddon).

 

You could also choose to follow the GK numerical theme...666 (Chapter 666, 666 tests and trials, 666 words in there chant...). A Grand Master is in charge of 666 GK Marines. Another way to look would be 6 Grand Masters, each of which have 6 Brother Captains under them, who in turn have 6 Justicars under them, who each lead a squad of 10 GK.

 

I prefer the higher numbers rather than the lower numbers - after all, they are one of the oldest chapters in the Imperium and they have never been forced to split or otherwise regulated due to size.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I would guess that in order to handle the task the GK probably outnumbered the Flame Falcons 2 to 1 in order to avoid devastating casualties [The Flame Falcon's were not chaos...so the normal anti-chaos benefits of the GK wouldn't have been too helpful]. Perhaps that force represented the combined forces of a Segmentum...

 

At the risk of starting a debate over the Flame Falcons, a Grey Knight is just as badass whether you're a Daemon or a Necron. The only difference is that Daemons will recoil from Grey Knights in pain due to their purity.

[Kaled100]

There are also probably more GK strike forces than the half dozen or so speculated about here.

You misunderstand - the speculation was that perhaps each Grand Master is in command of the Grey Knights in a segmentum, not that there are only five (or six) strike forces. There would be loads of small strike forces spread across each segmentum - some would be only a single squad, others larger and led by a Brother-Captain. Occasionally, should the threat be sufficiently great, the Grand Master would gather as many Knights as he could muster and take to the field himself - not that he was always at the head of such a large force.

 

The Codex mentions that the GK are often the first on the scene of a daemonic incursion and by the time normal Imperial forces arrive, the problem has been eliminated. Other than being in the right place at the right time - it may be likely that there is a rapid strike force of say 300 mixed GK for each Sector not Segmentum.

I'd suggest that them being first on the scene is due to the fact that daemonic intrusions are often likely to be uncovered by the Ordo Malleus, who would call in Grey Knights first - and we know that their fleet is piloted by some of the best navigators in the Imperium, hence them arriving first. I don't think the idea of a strike force per sector is tenable - we don't know how many sectors there are, but it's a lot. The Calixis sector has around 200 systems/planets/orbital facilities of note, and IIRC there's only something like one squad of Astartes in the entire sector. 300 Grey Knights per sector would easily be able to deal with any and all daemonic threats in the Imperium and we know that's not the case - they're spread very thinly.

 

And the final clue to the size of the GK that I can think of is in the bit of fluff about the Flame Falcons. An entire Chapter of "hardy and courageous, even for Space Marines" Space Marines were killed off by the GK at the behest of an Inquisitor who thought they might be tainted. And it they weren't caught in the battle field by surprise, they were all at their homeworld - which would have likely been fortified against the Ork and Eldar pirates who were in the same neighborhood as Lethe. I would guess that in order to handle the task the GK probably outnumbered the Flame Falcons 2 to 1 in order to avoid devastating casualties [The Flame Falcon's were not chaos...so the normal anti-chaos benefits of the GK wouldn't have been too helpful]. Perhaps that force represented the combined forces of a Segmentum...

Perhaps. But more likely the Inquisition bombarded the Flame Falcons from orbit and then sent down the Grey Knights to mop up the survivors. I'd also suggest that there were other Inquisitorial forces there, but the presence of the Grey Knights meant the others were forgotten - either that, or the other forces merely contained the Flame Falcons while the Grey Knights hunted them down. You say the Flame Falcons were not chaotic - but has it ever been explained what caused them to burst into immolate? Even if it it were not chaotic, it's probable the Inquisitor thought it was - hence he called in the Grey Knights.

 

I prefer the higher numbers rather than the lower numbers - after all, they are one of the oldest chapters in the Imperium and they have never been forced to split or otherwise regulated due to size.

I don't think their age is relevant - the most trusted and honourable legions were still forced to split, and the Grey Knights were founded around the same time as the legions were split into chapters so it's likely that they too were not allowed to be too large (even if they now are larger than a normal chapter. They were never forced to split or had their size regulated because there are never enough of them.

[Dilgar]

I would definetely make the number 6000+...the simple fact that if 300 GKs traced Ghargatuloth to Khorion 9 (in the Grey Knight book which I just started to read so don´t spoil it ;))and before this they would have fought a dozen battles just to find out that 'it' was there means that they would have been even more before.

 

The fact that they "could only gather up so many GKs from nearby sectors" only enhances the fact that there has got to be lots more. The fact that every GM had 100 troops under his command couldn´t have been anything else then the simple coincidence, besides which author would write a number like 287 on an epic battle as that?

 

Also this is only one deamonic threat out of dozens of threats in a world with million planets, and it happened a thousand years ago(41k fluff), and one would think an organisation as the GK would atleast keep it´s number the same if not trying to raise it.

 

Off for a weeks holiday :P

[Melissia]

The Grey Knights would not have been split up by simple reason of the Inquisition Said So. :P

 

Besides, if the Grey Knights are descended from the Emperor's own gene-seed, then the Emperor-- who was still intelligable at the time of the splitting up of the chapters IIRC-- would have given them favor and let them stay together,methinks.

[Kaled100]

I would definetely make the number 6000+...the simple fact that if 300 GKs traced Ghargatuloth to Khorion 9 (in the Grey Knight book which I just started to read so don´t spoil it :P)and before this they would have fought a dozen battles just to find out that 'it' was there means that they would have been even more before.

Hmmm, it does suggest there are more than 5-6 Grand Masters. Although it doesn't say that they each command 100 Grey Knights (Malquiant only commands 70). And it doesn't say that it was the 300 Grey Knights who had spent so long tracking Ghargatuloth - the impression I get is that it was much smaller forces, with the large fleet (the largest the Ordo Malleus could assemble, and gathered from across the Segmentum Obscurus) called in for the final assault.

 

The operation is certainly not a normal one though - Khorion IX is at a convergence of thousands of Tzeentch's plots, and even the Grand Master says he has never seen anything like it in his centuries of service - so I'm not sure it's a good basis on which to draw conclusions about the overall number of Grey Knights. It does suggest there are at least three Grand Masters in the segmentum, and at least 300 Grey Knights, however the Grey Knights do seem to have a very high ratio of officers to troops - as well as the three Grand Masters, there's also at least one Captain present.

[S'jet]

delete ;<

[Grey Mage]

Perhaps that force represented the combined forces of a Segmentum...

Perhaps. But more likely the Inquisition bombarded the Flame Falcons from orbit and then sent down the Grey Knights to mop up the survivors. I'd also suggest that there were other Inquisitorial forces there, but the presence of the Grey Knights meant the others were forgotten - either that, or the other forces merely contained the Flame Falcons while the Grey Knights hunted them down. You say the Flame Falcons were not chaotic - but has it ever been explained what caused them to burst into immolate? Even if it it were not chaotic, it's probable the Inquisitor thought it was - hence he called in the Grey Knights.

 

I prefer the higher numbers rather than the lower numbers - after all, they are one of the oldest chapters in the Imperium and they have never been forced to split or otherwise regulated due to size.

I don't think their age is relevant - the most trusted and honourable legions were still forced to split, and the Grey Knights were founded around the same time as the legions were split into chapters so it's likely that they too were not allowed to be too large (even if they now are larger than a normal chapter. They were never forced to split or had their size regulated because there are never enough of them.

Its possible they bombarded the monastery and then dropped in... of course most monasteries are designed to withstand this kind of trauma, and as you said yourself people allowed to fight alongside the GK are few and far between... the simplest option is that there are many more GK than their are marines in a normal chapter.

 

As to your second point here... would that be the 6 thousand some odd Black Templars or the 3 thousand some odd Space Wolves your talking about here? Or how about the 60-80 chapters that take orders from the Grand Master of the DA? The entire idea of their being 1k chapters of 1k marines is propoganda that the fluff itself doesnt support. As for the GKs being force into a number... well its even less likely. Considering their origins, their bosses, and their secrecy its unlikely they are force into these constraints. Id go so far as to say that their primary limiting factor is the number of people who are capable of being marines who have the psychic potential and willpower needed to complete the training to become Grey Knights.

[Kaled100]

the simplest option is that there are many more GK than their are marines in a normal chapter.

More than a normal chapter, yes I agree. But that doesn't mean there were 1000+ marines gathered to destroy the Flame Falcons - that seems hugely unlikely given that deployments of 100+ are incredibly rare. The Inquisition has plenty more troops it could deploy, with the Grey Knights spearheading the force.

 

As to your second point here... would that be the 6 thousand some odd Black Templars or the 3 thousand some odd Space Wolves your talking about here? Or how about the 60-80 chapters that take orders from the Grand Master of the DA? The entire idea of their being 1k chapters of 1k marines is propoganda that the fluff itself doesnt support.

I'm curious, where is that number of 3000 Space Wolves from? It's often quoted, but no one has ever been able to give me a source for it. The same for 6000 Black Templars. These chapters are said to be larger than average, but I didn't think their numbers had ever been specified. The Grey Knights are said to be one of the largest chapters, so if the Black Templars are the largest then there are less Grey Knights than Black Templars.

 

I'm also curious about your number of 60-80 Dark Angels successors - to quote their Index Astartes entry;

'...the Dark Angels gave rise to three successor Chapters... There are no known aberrations in the Dark Angels' gene-seed, which makes the reluctance of the High Lords of Terra to utilise it in the founding of new chapters perplexing. No doubt there are other successor Chapters of the Dark Angels, but their names and where they were founded are unrecorded.'

Thus I'd always thought that there were less Dark Angels successors than 60-80.

 

As for the GKs being force into a number... well its even less likely. Considering their origins, their bosses, and their secrecy its unlikely they are force into these constraints. Id go so far as to say that their primary limiting factor is the number of people who are capable of being marines who have the psychic potential and willpower needed to complete the training to become Grey Knights.

You misunderstand - I wasn't suggesting that they number no more than 1000, but that at the time they were founded legions were being chopped down to chapters of about 1000 men. As the Grey Knights were at that time relatively new and untested, it seems likely that initially the Inquisition would have subjected them to the same limit as the rest of the Astartes. Then, over time they would have grown as they proved their worth and devotion. These days the limiting factor is no doubt obtaining enough suitable recruits who can survive the training.