Damocles Rhino Re-rolls

[henrythesecond]

I'm using Kar'sorro Khan as my Chapter Master, so tactics for most of my lists

are understandably based around Outflanking.

 

I have a 'Counts As' Tigurius to help with the Reserve re-rolls at 3k or larger,

but have been looking for a bit of help in smaller games and looked up the

Damocles Command Rhino from IA2.

 

Apologies for the direct quote but the rules in IA2 state:

Improved Communications: ... This allows the Space Marine player to re-roll

a reinforcement dice once per turn...

 

My question is, does 'a reinforcement dice' cover both Reserve rolls and Outflanking rolls,

still only allowing a single re-roll of either one or the other of course.

 

I realise there was no such thing as Outflanking when IA2 was written, but I'm curious as

to why it was referred to as a 'reinforcement' roll and not a Reserve roll? Were there other

methods of bringing troops into a battle after it had started apart from Reserves? Was the

phrase meant to cover those too? If so, is it too much to suggest it covers Outflanking?

 

Any have an opinion? Or even care? ^_^

[Frosty the Pyro]

I am fairly sure that reinforcement=reserves only, outflank is its own seperate kind of thing, and the outflank roll is closer to the scatter roll for deapstriking than the reserve roll (remember you roll reserves to see if it comes in, and then you roll outflank to see where it comes in, the parralel to deepstrike is easy to see, roll reserves to see if it comes in, roll scatter to see where it comes in). Any IA stuff is something you have to ask permision for anyway though, so you might be able to talk your oponent into house ruleing it, but I would not let you.

[henrythesecond]

Any IA stuff is something you have to ask permision for anyway though, so you might be able to talk your oponent into house ruleing it, but I would not let you.

 

Hi Frosty.

As far as I'm aware, you don't have to ask permission to use any Forgeworld products, including the Imperial Armour books.

 

It's considered good etiquette to inform your opponent if you intend to use Flyers, or indeed anything unusual, but Imperial Armour

is considered very mainstream in friendly games and requires no opponent consent to use. Without getting into the whole 'Forgeworld

isn't GW' debate, it even states in the IA books that you don't require your opponents permission to use them.

 

This would only be an issue of course in a pick-up game as Tournies have very specific rules packages and in a friendly game your

mates would tell you where to stick it if you were trying to pull any unfair stunts!!

 

Regards.

[Grey Mage]

Actually Henry ALL forgeworld items from imperial armor are opponents permission only. If you have the real books it should mention it, rather close to the beggining. Ill see if I can go find the page number.

 

They are not a codex addendum, even if they did do a free update on their site.

[Praeger]

Actually Henry ALL forgeworld items from imperial armor are opponents permission only. If you have the real books it should mention it, rather close to the beggining. Ill see if I can go find the page number.

 

They are not a codex addendum, even if they did do a free update on their site.

 

Sorry Grey but you are wrong as well.

 

SMALL forge world books are opponents permission.

 

BIG hard cover books are not.

 

Front few pages in each explains this <_<

[Grey Mage]

Really now? My copy of the taros campaign doesnt seem to have that. Page please?

[Scott-S6]

A more important question about the Damocles is: can you use the damocles' reserve re-roll while the Damocles is in reserve?

 

My first thought would be no, but the Improved Comms rule is copied directly from the Imperial Guard improved comms. The FAQ for the current (till the weekend) Guard codex says that improved comms does work while the unit that has it is in reserve.

 

So, given that precedent then I would have to say that it does.

[Kephri]

I think it does, as the ability does not say "while in play" or "while on the table". (which has it's own separate debate).

Its teleport beacon specifically says "deployed on the table".

 

I am fairly certain that Tigurius's re-roll can also happen when he is in reserve as his rule states "if he is in your army".

 

(I am sure that I did not use the exact phrasing, but I think I was close.)

[Brother Gothard]

I am fairly certain that Tigurius's re-roll can also happen when he is in reserve as his rule states "if he is in your army".

Correct. Under that reasoning I would assume the Damocles is the same, so long as "on the table" is not used.

[Maligoare]

I don't know if it answers the "on the table" issue, but with the release of Apoc (ok, a bit after) FW went through IA:2 and updated it for Fifth Edition rules. The pdf can be found here.

[Kephri]

I read the updated before I posted and it did not say specifically about the reserves roll. (But it was clear about it's teleport beacon only being usable when it was on the table)

[gainesdp]

Actually Henry ALL forgeworld items from imperial armor are opponents permission only. If you have the real books it should mention it, rather close to the beggining. Ill see if I can go find the page number.

 

They are not a codex addendum, even if they did do a free update on their site.

 

Sorry Grey but you are wrong as well.

 

SMALL forge world books are opponents permission.

 

BIG hard cover books are not.

 

Front few pages in each explains this :lol:

 

I'm not sure the answer is really that clear.

 

As far as I can tell:

 

1) Imperial Armor rules were made using the Vehicle Design Rules (VDR)

2) I didn't play back in the day, but according to the lexicanum, the VDR were part of Chapter Approved 2001 (i.e., published in 2001)

3) I can't find the damocles command rhino listed as part of any of the Imperial Armor books (I only have the first, but it isn't listed on the lexicanum in any of the content)

4) I can find the damocles command rhino on google, as a pdf on the Forgeworld site

 

So, is the Damocles Rhino in a published book (I honestly don't know, and don't want to jump to conclusions)? Second, in a cursory glance of the rules, I 'personally' don't think it seems very balanced for 60 pts (i.e., orbital bombardment + rerolling reserves + rererolling scatter and distance for teleporting units).

 

With all that said, regardless of what is printed in IA, it is always opponents permission whether someone plays (minus tournaments, where IA books are not generally allowed as far as I know). I'm not particularly convinced IA rules are really that balanced from my casual glance, but I'm not sure my opinion matters on that. Regardless, I think when using units from supplement books that the average gamer is not very familiar with, it's probably a good idea to err far on the side of non-power gaming, because as I said, it is always opponent permission when playing a casual game (i.e., if they don't want to play, you're not playing).

[Scott-S6]

The Damocles is in Imperial Armour 2 (this is where you'll find nearly all of the marine, inquisition and sisters of battle stuff). IA2 has just been updated to bring the points into line with the new SM codex and you can download all of the rules (i.e. the useful bits) for free. Search for Imperial Armour 2 Update.

 

I see more and more tournaments allowing IA stuff. In general it's a little bit overcosted compared to stuff in the codexes due to being written for third edition. As with anything new, many people claimed "overpowered", etc but in reality it's all a little bit too expensive. If you compare the tanks in IA1 to the tanks in the new guard codex, in general they are better and cheaper in the codex (it says a lot to me about the IA rules that a bunch of the IA tanks have now become mainstream with only very small tweaks). Having spent a lot of time playing against a guard player who has lots of IA stuff, it's fairly underwhelming. What it does do is add a tiny bit of realism (e.g. a main gun for the russ which is actually like a battle tank's main gun (unlike the battle cannon), co-axial weapons, etc)

 

My biggest problem with the IA rules is the appalling price of the books which, although very pretty (some of the photography is excellent), contain virtually no rules. They're also a pain to carry around and a massive pain to find rules when you want them (as you flip through page after page of the same model with different paint schemes). It's not even like the books are a great money spinner - they cost a fortune to make and print.

[henrythesecond]

@ GreyMage: As Praeger says dude, main IA books are not opponents permission.

 

@ gainesdp:

With all that said, regardless of what is printed in IA, it is always opponents permission whether someone plays (minus tournaments, where IA books are not generally allowed as far as I know). I'm not particularly convinced IA rules are really that balanced from my casual glance, but I'm not sure my opinion matters on that. Regardless, I think when using units from supplement books that the average gamer is not very familiar with, it's probably a good idea to err far on the side of non-power gaming, because as I said, it is always opponent permission when playing a casual game (i.e., if they don't want to play, you're not playing).

What you say is, of course, very true with any game, not just 40k. If your opponent wanted to (and was strange...) he could say "You're using Land Raiders? I'm

not playing you then...".

 

But the point with the IA books is that they shouldn't require opponents prior permission. While we all reserve the right not to play, we shouldn't be too surprised

or upset if an opponent wants to use an Imperial Armour variant of a Leman Russ, for instance (yeah, I'm aware most of 'em are in the new Codex anyway!).

 

The only caveat I would put on this is if an opponent started unpacking a ton of flyers, as they require quite specific units to counter-tactic. I'd probably still play,

but would consider it bad form he hadn't mentioned the flyers in time to allow me to respond in kind.

 

Regards.

[Grey Mage]

And I agree with that, You bring it, I kill it and vice versa... but this is the first time Ive ever heard of IA being considered part of the normal forces allowed in RT tournies, etc. Sorry to jump on you... its just I figured Id encounter that sometime in the last decade.

[Praeger]

1) Imperial Armor rules were made using the Vehicle Design Rules (VDR)

 

Not true.

 

2) I didn't play back in the day, but according to the lexicanum, the VDR were part of Chapter Approved 2001 (i.e., published in 2001)

 

Yep, but they actually did make almost perfect points values for all equivilant vehicles. And again, VDG was opponents permision, Forge worls where considered codex.

 

3) I can't find the damocles command rhino listed as part of any of the Imperial Armor books (I only have the first, but it isn't listed on the lexicanum in any of the content)

 

1 - its there.

2 - dont ever trust a 3rd party source.

 

4) I can find the damocles command rhino on google, as a pdf on the Forgeworld site

 

Point? You can find many PDF files there that are for the exact same models/units in forge world books.

 

So, is the Damocles Rhino in a published book (I honestly don't know, and don't want to jump to conclusions)? Second, in a cursory glance of the rules, I 'personally' don't think it seems very balanced for 60 pts (i.e., orbital bombardment + rerolling reserves + rererolling scatter and distance for teleporting units).

 

With all that said, regardless of what is printed in IA, it is always opponents permission whether someone plays

 

So you are saying it is up to you if I can play with my Orks? Do I need your permision to play Eldar? The forge world books are the equivalant of chapter aproved and codex's - no permision needed, just the rules with you.

 

(minus tournaments, where IA books are not generally allowed as far as I know).

 

Most tournaments allow them as long as they come with the corect forge world book (big not small etc)

 

I'm not particularly convinced IA rules are really that balanced from my casual glance,

 

Oh, they are more then fair - most are overpriced for what they are.

 

Regardless, I think when using units from supplement books that the average gamer is not very familiar with, it's probably a good idea to err far on the side of non-power gaming, because as I said, it is always opponent permission when playing a casual game (i.e., if they don't want to play, you're not playing).

 

1 - its not power gaming in any way shape or form.

2 - if i needed my opponents permison to play things he did not know about, then most games would be marine vs marine

3 - if you dont know the rules thats fine, thats why you MUST have the rules on hand even if you are playing stock standard foot slogging marines.

 

in a cursory glance of the rules, I 'personally' don't think it seems very balanced for 60 pts (i.e., orbital bombardment + rerolling reserves + rererolling scatter and distance for teleporting units).

 

Well it is fair for a couple of things:

1 - it takes up your 2nd HQ slot. Might seam like nothing, but most marine player really want that 2nd slot.

2 - its only a single re-roll per turn.

3 - orbital takes a HEAVY slot which costs more points (min +60)

4 - easily destroyed.

 

In play this is a VERY fair unit, hard when used right, but easy to take out if your smart.

[gainesdp]

A few responses,

 

1) If you read Imperial Armor I (foreward, first few pages), it is fairly explicitly stated that the rules for the vehicles were designed with the VDR in mind (i.e., conforming to them was considered a sign of balance).

 

2) Glad the damocles rhino is published; I wasn't certain.

 

3) As stated before, the popular conception is that IA is an addendum to the codices. That may be partially wrong, but bottom line, if I bring my monopoly game, and you bring your star wars supplement to the monopoly game, I may just want to play regular monopoly. That doesn't make me a jerk, you a jerk, or monopoly rules stupid, but simply put, they may not be familiar with the star wars supplement, and they don't want to deal with esoteric units and rules (I'm sure we're just scratching the surface here with the damocles rhino). Arguing that they don't need your permission to play you because of a paragraph in the book is a losing argument.

 

4) Whether you like it or not, I think the popular perception is that IA is an addition to codexes, not codex itself. IA is not mainstream in my area at least, and while I don't think they'd have trouble finding a game, they may have trouble playing the same person twice if they tell them the rhino is their HQ unit and has orbital bombardment, reroll deep strike scatter + distance, and reroll one reserve roll a turn. Oh, and it costs 60 points. I really, fundamentally disagree whether that is balanced (i.e., does that work with drop pod armies, does that work with Gate of Infinity, does it work with outflanking as asked initially).

[gainesdp]

Regarding tournaments, I looked up whether some recent ones allowed IA:

 

1) S.I.E.G.E. - semi-regional SE US - Imperial Armor not allowed. S.I.E.G.E.

 

2) 'Ard Boyz 2008 - WD294 Armored Companies is allowed (Whether that is part of IA, I don't know). Ard Boyz

 

3) Adepticon 2009 - IA not allowed in the tournament or championship portion (I didn't look at all the other rules packets) Adepticon

 

4) Warhammer GT 2008 (No 2009 GT) - Doesn't appear to allow IA. Games Workshop

 

5) Necronomicon 2009 - IA rules not allowed Necronomicon

 

So, I'm not sure what tournaments are allowing IA (I didn't find any, I suppose I could have kept looking). It also appears GW itself is not allowing IA in its tournaments, but I won't make any assumptions based on that (i.e., it could just be GW wants to make less money....)

[Grey Mage]

Or it could be that forgeworld knows it makes awesome models, and that people will want them anyways, and that the rules are only there to give you an excuse to use your $90 paperweight of death?