Anti tank in 5th ed marine armies

[Brother Evar]

Just wondering what people do to take down armour theses days with the new SM dex. IMO it looks better to get in there with melta's on speeders, DP tac's + dreads, MM AB's and small melta bike units. Or at range with the trusty lascannon and ML? Or a mix of both? I just prefer that because I like fast mech lists with a min sized Dev unit w/ las + ML and MM AB's.

[Ming]

I think we'll see pretty quickly that against tank-heavy opponents the best thing will be to be up close and personal. Charge the line and use cover, get close and pop them or run into CC with something so they cannot template you. You will need some cheap long range firepower - quad las devs split into 2xLC combat squads comes to mind.

[Jackelope King]

Meltas. 100%.

 

The difficulty of popping tanks and vehicles in 5th Edition lies in the Vehicle Damage Chart, which only has a 1 in 3 chance of killing a vehicle you've scored a penetrating hit on, and penetrating hits aren't easy to come by.

 

So you want to maximize the number of potential penetrating hits you get by using melta weapons. They a multi-melta at 12" penetrates a Land Raider on an average roll, and the AP1 means that you'll kill half the tanks you score a penetrating hit on instead of 1/3. Absolutely huge. On average, that means you need to fire 3 multi-melta shots at 12" (one will miss, the two that hit will probably pen, but only one of them will probably destroy the target). These are the kinds of odds you want when you're shooting an armor value of 13 or 14.

 

For armor values lower than that, I still think the Lascannon firebase is probably good enough*. It scores penetrating hits consistently enough to make up for the lack of being AP1. I run at least one twin-linked lascannon Razorback most of the time to provide this threat to the usually weak-armored enemy transports. Being twin-linked makes up for only being S9 with 1d6 to roll for penetration, so it's likely to score a penetrating hit and do some damage. Las, of course, also has the big advantage of being able to relax in the back-field, far away from the retribution of the enemy after you blast their vehicles (especially important if you blow up the transport for an especially hard-hitting close combat squad). However, I stress that Lascannons are probably only sufficiently effective against lighter vehicles (sure a lucky roll can penetrate a land raider, but statistically, you need too many shots to be certain of a kill). Anything lighter (Plasma or Krak Missiles) are similarly only worth firing at the absolute lightest of vehicles, though Missile Launchers get one added benefit: they're one of the cheapest weapons to kit out a Devastator Squad with a quartet of, and don't turn the squad into one-trick ponies (if you're taking ablative wound bolter marines, they play very nicely with Missile Launchers).

 

*But a melta is almost always better, so long as you can protect the guy firing it.

[ShinyRhino]

I feel it's a combination of the two that will be most effective, though Jackelope's post is very very good.

 

The first thing that comes to my mind is two tactical squads trying to hold a lone objective. You know that the opponent is going to come after you with his armoured might. I'd go with one squad armed with las/plas, and one with melta/multimelta. Keep the las/plas squad as one, for the ability to soak wounds from long-range fire hoping to break you off the objective. Split the melta-armed squad into combat squads. Deploy the meltagun forward of the multimelta. This way, when a tank rolls into range of the meltagun, it is also in range of the multimelta. As it gets closer, it'll be within the 6" 'extra effect range' of the meltagun, and hopefully the 12" of the multimelta.

Or, you can do it just the opposite. You threaten further by placing the multimelta forward, but only get the one shot. The opponent has to weigh the benefits of getting closer to your objective against the risk of increased meltafire that his closing in generates.

 

It'll also be important to include a "hunter" unit that can take on tanks, be it in the form of attack bikes, meltagun armed bikers, or Landspeeders. The debate over which is "best" is covered thoroughly in other threads.

Having these hunters keeps your opponent from laying back andplinking you with lascannon shots from afar, or bombarding you with artillery. Send those hunters out to pop those Basilisks (and soon, Griffons), firebase Dreads, Las Preds, and Land Raiders. So long you're pushing them toward your lines, or holding them at bay with the threat of hunters, they're not taking your objective.

[kaiserstole20]

If I know I'm facing AV13-AV14 I usually do at least the following: 2x Dread w/Multi-Melta, 2x Tac Squads w/LC. I run the dreads forward and pop smoke so they have some cover until round 2 where the MM will become more deadly at short range (hopefully). I combat squad the Tacs and let the Lascannons try to stun the tanks while the rest of the squads move forwards towards objectives.

 

Lascannons are no more than long-range 'stun guns' until something more deadly can get into range. Still, every time you stun a tank you are temporarily taking it out of the fight so that's valuable.

[Combo]

ive actually been using lascannons as anti TEQ since fifth edition. the strength nine and ap 2 combined with long range makes them fantastic for taking out the small squads such as termies.

also good at taking down Fexs. multimeltas arnt as good because of there range.

 

I run a two missile two lascannon devastator squad and it does fantastic against deathwing armies B).

[jeffersonian000]

I've been experimenting with different builds recently, and have been using Lascannons and Missile Launchers for my anti-tank effort specifically for the range advantage; I'm finding Meltas to be too short ranged to be effective due to the fact that if they don't kill the target (primarily Dreads), the Target gets into close combat on its turn. Also, Missile Launchers are dual-roled for anti-horde, making them a slightly better option for me.

 

SJ

[Captain Idaho]

Lascannons are no more than long-range 'stun guns' until something more deadly can get into range. Still, every time you stun a tank you are temporarily taking it out of the fight so that's valuable.

 

That is true now we have to take less because of their extreme costs in our Codex. But if you take 3 or more Lascannons you can do some damage at range and get a few kills here and there.

 

Taking a mix of weapons is a good idea. The extremely heavy armoured units need melta weaponary and powerfists (except the AV14 all round vehicles), while Lascannons concentrate on anything AV12 or less. AV13 needs a melta weapon ideally, though a Lascannon works in a pinch.

 

Trick is concentrating the right weaponary at the right time. Relying on short range weapons is always risky, which is why I always have some close ranged weapons that can back my army up. Lascannons fit the bill for this.

[CompanyOfTheFallen]

mhm, isn't the vindicator another good AT weapon as well? Ordance does get the 2. AP-roll, doesn't it?

[kaiserstole20]

mhm, isn't the vindicator another good AT weapon as well? Ordance does get the 2. AP-roll, doesn't it?

 

Yes they do, and they are good anti-tank IMO.

[Resv]

Vindicators can toss out quite a bit of damage but they are hampered with weapon scatter as well as range. Since they can't move and fire in the same turn you make yourself vulnerable to a whole myriad of bad things. Don't get me wrong though, they have great potential and I have seen them used to destroy unit after unit but they do have down sides.

 

I think the best anti-tank in the codex is the humble Attack Bike armed with a Multi-Melta. Full 12 inch move and then 24 inches of range really adds up at only 50 points. They may not be the most survivable unit to small arms but they don't really have to be. Used in reserve or well hidden you should be able to strike with them by turn 2. Also two wounds a model can save them against a blast weapon should the need arise.

[kaiserstole20]

Vindicators can toss out quite a bit of damage but they are hampered with weapon scatter as well as range. Since they can't move and fire in the same turn you make yourself vulnerable to a whole myriad of bad things. Don't get me wrong though, they have great potential and I have seen them used to destroy unit after unit but they do have down sides.

 

I think the best anti-tank in the codex is the humble Attack Bike armed with a Multi-Melta. Full 12 inch move and then 24 inches of range really adds up at only 50 points. They may not be the most survivable unit to small arms but they don't really have to be. Used in reserve or well hidden you should be able to strike with them by turn 2. Also two wounds a model can save them against a blast weapon should the need arise.

 

IIRC, the cannon on a demolisher is Ordnance, but Ordnance Barrage so I think it can move and fire but it can only fire the cannon. I may be wrong on that though.

 

As for the MM Attack Bike I definitely agree.

[Tonoshi]

Vindicators are allowed to move 6" and fire the Demolisher Cannon only. I usually avoid shooting at vehicles with my Vindicators though. Attack Bikes with MM and Bikers with Meltas are great for Anti-Tank roles in my experience.

[Giga]

One great thing about lascannons is that, apart from being excellent against light vehicles (particularly transports), the lascannons also enable you to pop wounds in monstrous creatures or to effectively snipe things like nob bikers and obliterators.

 

Meltas, while great, are sort-of specialized to kill vehicles.

[Bannus]

Keep in mind that the rear armor of many vehicles is a humbling 10 - which can be threatened by massed bolter/bolt pistol fire evne a Marine's bare hands. So a unit drop podded in behind a tank can be very dangerous with specializing in anti-tank capability.

[Gornall]

One great thing about lascannons is that, apart from being excellent against light vehicles (particularly transports), the lascannons also enable you to pop wounds in monstrous creatures or to effectively snipe things like nob bikers and obliterators.

 

Meltas, while great, are sort-of specialized to kill vehicles.

 

Definately... if you try and use meltas on these targets, you put yourself either in charge range, or very close. Heaven help you if you don't kill it. Lascannons allow you to pop these things at range and hopefully either bring them down or cripple them before they get too close.

[Giga]

Definately... if you try and use meltas on these targets, you put yourself either in charge range, or very close. Heaven help you if you don't kill it. Lascannons allow you to pop these things at range and hopefully either bring them down or cripple them before they get too close.

Exactly. I play against tyranids very often, and tbh I'd be screwed if I had to rely on meltas to take out all those 2+ and 3+ save carnifexes. Likewise, I'm often fighting against other marines (chaos and loyalist), and being able to pop their transports before they can pop mine is a great thing because, in my humble opinion, when fighting marine vs marine battles it's all about who gets to rapid fire first. This is where lascannons and missile launchers really shine because of their 48" range.

 

In the end, I believe an all-comers SM force should have a combo of long range high str weapons (lascannons, missile launchers, even plasma cannons and autocannons), and short-range high str stuff (meltas, plasmaguns/pistols & assault cannons). This is one of the reasons I love the classical land raider; for 275 pts, you get an unstoppable transport, that has both lascannons and a multimelta. :cuss

[Cameron Magnus]

I have never had any melta gun bits to put on my tac squads. But I do enjoy the speeder mounted Multi Meltas striking rear and side armors. I have my new bike squadron with attack bikes though and that is making my opponents worry.

 

Las Cannons were effective in earlier editions when they didnt cost as much and when the enemy needed to move inside your range. Tau opponents destroy my dev squads now and Eldar always screw me with those special rules.

 

those dirty Xenos.

[jeffersonian000]

I have never had any melta gun bits to put on my tac squads. But I do enjoy the speeder mounted Multi Meltas striking rear and side armors. I have my new bike squadron with attack bikes though and that is making my opponents worry.

 

A quick and dirty conversion for meltaguns is to cut off the fuel tank of a flamer and mount it to the barrel of a bolter so that it looks like a melta's barrel. Looks great from a distance and easy to do.

 

SJ