Grey Knights In SM Armies

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

So, are they really as useful as they once were?

 

You see, I was wondering if adding a unit of either Terminators or that HS squad would be a good thing, especially with psycannons to get the drop, as it were, on that thrice-cursed Changeling. And then I began to wonder if it was a good idea at all, since they do cost quite a few points, and I risk losing them to a sustained round of Flamer fire.

 

Ideas, comments, anything?

[Uncle Mel]

in the DH codex page 21 it shows you can't take DH heavy support as allies in a SM army, so that solves your problem right? ;)

 

if you want you could add a squad of 3 terminators + 2 brother captains and have 3 psycannons but that would be a huge points sink :P

 

start off with a normal termy squad and see where it goes, just proxy it in some test battles.

 

mel

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Ah, I see, I had forgotten that. :P But then again, in Apocalypse... ;)

 

Anyways, what about other GK units? Are any of them good? Say, the FA option?

[Gentlemanloser]

They're not as useful now, due to Chapter Tactics, and the new Wargear.

 

If you want Termies, Fleeting/Stubborn S8 3++ SM Terminators seem much more attractive. And for thier Expense, the points you spend on PAGK could be spent on Scoring Sternguard in Drop Pods.

[number6]

I know a space marines player who likes taking a Troops PAGK unit (typically 8 models, 1-2 psycannons) for fighting orks. I agree with his assessment that GKs truly shine at thinning infantry hordes. I've always had excellent luck with them against Orks myself. Similarly, they will be handy against Daemon armies, as it's a virtually 100% infantry force. You just can't let them get charged by the dedicated Daemon assault units (e.g., bloodletters, daemonettes, bloodcrushers). But against the vast majority of the daemon army, GKs can shoot them down in a hurry, so they can come in handy.

 

It's for the shooting that I would actually recommend PAGKs over GKTs for allies. It'll save you some points, too. GKTs are mostly an assault unit, but normal Marines can cover that base plenty well on their own. What PAGKs bring to the table is superior dakka and the threat of a crap-ton of S6 melee attacks. It's that combination that makes them more valuable than GKTs, IMHO. Plus, Troops PAGKs are, well, Troops! :P

[Aidoneus]

I agree with Number6 on taking PAGKs over GKTs, and his reasons for doing so.

 

Another nice option is an inquisitor (lord or not) with a psycannon, shooty retinue, including 2 mystics. They'll either shoot down daemons/drop podding marines, or cause them to deploy much less aggressively, which is still a big advantage. Plus, that much dakka is always useful.

 

My suggestion:

 

Inquisitor Lord: Psycannon

9 Henchmen: 1 Plasma Cannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Sages, 3 Mystics, Familiar

214pts

 

It's a bit pricey, true. You could always drop a mystic and the familiar, drop the lord to a regular inquisitor, change the plasma cannon to a heavy bolter, and (only if you swap out the plasma cannon) drop the second sage. All of those changes will bring you down to 147pts. Either way, keep 'em in cover and near something that can kill armour (land raider, predator annihilator, lascannon devs, etc.), and have fun.

 

If you take the Inq Lord, and really want something for that changeling, you might consider a vindicare. Not my favorite assassin, but he should suit your purposes.

[jeffersonian000]

I normally run a pure GK army list, however, recently I've been allying a squad or two of GK's into a Space Marine list is an "combined Ordos task force". In doing so, I've been running Redeemers and a Librarian with Gate and Might of the Ancients attached to a 7 Knight PAGK squad. The ability to gate out of an AV14 vehicle, dakka upon arrival, and still have 17 S6 attacks (5 powered) at I4 if charged isn't all that bad.

 

SJ

[DevianID]

There is some controversy about gate of infinity out of vehicles and out of combat that was on the official rules forum--I just would caution not to count on being able to do it. As for PAGK, they do make a good land raider troop, and attaching the librarian and giving him the s6 power weapon is pretty fluffy too. Do you put 2 incinerators on the PAGK to really light things up with the redeemer?

 

Also, I am of the opinion that in an army list with mastercrafted thunderhammers and 3++ SS termies, if you are looking for close combat then you will take them over anything else, GKT included. The problem then becomes, do you take PAGK for troops or do you take tac squads in rhinos? The tac squad comes with a transport, grenades, has more bodies, and gets special/heavy weapons (twin linked with Vulkan) and a Pfist, plus can combat squad, while the PAGK get only 8 bodies, stormbolters instead of just more regular bolters, and s6. So, in terms of which brings more power, the tac marines have the grey knights beat 6 to 2, thus tac marines have more going for them than Grey Knights. But, in the right situation, Grey Knights are still really good.

 

Also, if you simply want to beat daemons, then you can take sanctuary on an inquisitor, put him in a raider, and park near an objective with your army huddled 3 inches around. Its no fun for you or your daemon opponent, and it only costs 40ish points plus your raider.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The problem then becomes, do you take PAGK for troops or do you take tac squads in rhinos? The tac squad comes with a transport, grenades, has more bodies, and gets special/heavy weapons (twin linked with Vulkan) and a Pfist, plus can combat squad, while the PAGK get only 8 bodies, stormbolters instead of just more regular bolters, and s6. So, in terms of which brings more power, the tac marines have the grey knights beat 6 to 2, thus tac marines have more going for them than Grey Knights. But, in the right situation, Grey Knights are still really good.

 

Tactical squad pros:

- 9pts cheaper on average

- Some free special/heavy weapons, and cheap upgrades to the better ones (plasma, melta, plasma cannon, lascannon)

- Cheap transport options (Rhino, drop pod)

- Sarge powerfist kills vehicles more easily and can instant-death T4 characters

- Sarge can take combi-weapon or plasma pistol to supplement squad firepower

- Combat Tactics+ATSKNF > 'Fearless'

 

Tactical squad cons:

- Weak in assault, reliant on Sarge to make up combat res difference with his powerfist kills

- Mobile firepower is at 12" or less, at longer ranges squad has to be stationary to contribute any firepower

- Can be pinned

 

Grey Knight pros:

- 'Fearless'

- Has storm bolter standard, thus granting a mobile firepower threat range of 30"

- Has WS5 and S6 in close-combat, +1A for every model over Tactical Marines (due to True Grit)

- Incinerator and psycannons, while expensive, give the unit a greater edge against most infantry, and make them extremely effective at combating Daemons

- Justicar has 3A's with a S6 power weapon at WS5/I4

- 'Rites of Exorcism' means Daemons without frags go at I1 when assaulting Knights and roll for their assault range like they are going through difficult terrain. Combined with their S6 attacks, this means they can clean up depleted Bloodletter/Bloodcrusher packs and even badly maul Daemon Princes/Greater Daemons before they can swing back. Has to be seen to be believed.

- Has 'Shrouding' for deflecting long-range firepower

- Has 'Aegis' for deflecting 'offensive' psychic powers (great as a backup if your Libby/Grandmaster/Malleus Lord dies)

 

Grey Knight cons:

- Big squads are necessary for effectiveness, they easily reach 275pts+, often 300pts+ a squad

- No dedicated transport options

- Will die as fast as Tactical Marines to 36"- shooting

- Only 0-2 in IG/SM armies

- Lack the ability to engage FNP or 2+ save infantry, nor are they able to kill walkers or Landraider with shooting/assault

 

 

I reckon you can use both. The Tactical squads can supply meltas/plasma guns and plasma cannon to cover the PAGK weaknesses, while the PAGK form a screening line to hose down incoming assault units and finish them in off in combat.

[Aidoneus]

Darius makes an excellent comparison. I do think his points estimate is a little high (225pts for basic 8-man squad, won't go over 300pts until you have 10 men and 2 special weapons, or maybe some wargear). Also, with the mobile mid-range firepower, they don't really need a transport.

 

Keep in mind too that you'll need 2 Troop choices from the parent list before you can even consider allies, so you're going to have your 2 tac/scout squads already. The PAGKs can then come in and supplement that space marine core, filling niches of mobile anti-infantry firepower and hard-as-nails at taking an assault.

[steel hurricane]

i need clarification about including GK terminators in a SM force,

in the DH rules it clearly states that in a DH army cannot be included SM allies if there are any GK included,

 

but in the case of a principal SM force including DH as allies can i include GK terminators as a QG guard / Special Choice?

[Aidoneus]

no idea what QG guard means, but here's what I think you want to know:

 

with a DH parent list, you may only take space marine allies (think of them as inducted space marines) if no grey knights are present. That is, you will build you core up with an Inquisitor lord and storm troopers, perhaps take daemonhosts or assassins, and then inducted space marines.

 

with a space marine parent list, you may freely ally-in any daemonhunters units you want, up to the listed number of units from each force org category. In this case, it's perfectly allowable to have grey knights alongside your space marines.

 

As a side note, it works the same way with sisters of battle in the WH codex.

[steel hurricane]

ok thanks this is what i wanted to know

:(

 

for the HQ guard i meant GKT followers for a Brother Captain for example, sorry for the terms but i'm quite new to 40k.

 

i red many threads on the army list section not finding much about SM in DH lists , it is that bad to mix them?

[Aidoneus]

oh "HQ"! That makes sense! Your original post said "QG" and I was very confused. :( All better now.

 

There's nothing wrong with allying-in grey knights, it just depends on what you're looking for. Space marine armies tend to use their squads for very specific roles, and then the whole army works together as a well-oiled machine. Grey Knight armies, on the other hand, feature individual units that are good at many things, but not fantastic at any one thing, so it's a very different approach. I personally think a unit of two of GKs in a spacie army fills an much needed mobile-fire / anti-infantry role, but there are certainly unit in the spacie codex (bikers, for example) that can fill that role as well. In the end, it's basically just a preference thing.

[steel hurricane]

sorry for the "QG" thing i slipped to Italian a little (QG = quartier generale aka Head Quarter :( ) and thanx for the reply ,

well as stated in previous posts of mine, i purchased many things from a friend (SW mainly, SM, veichles and inquisitions little force reinforced with 20 cadians i plan to paint as stormtroopes)

so i'm trying to find the usefulness of all, trying at the same time to understand better the 40k world since i'm primarily a WFB player since 1995. i have a small DH force not easy to be ran alone , so including them (i have also torquemada and stern with followers, a daemonhost, 3 GKT, and some Delaque necromunda team that can be used somhow maybe one of them as a Vindicare) in a SM force can be at least very fun and good looking when i find the time to paint ;)