LR Helios + PotMS + WW + 5th Ed

[Vassakov]

Ok, I have searched on this one, but there didn't seem to be a concenus on the issue. Nor does it appear to have been discussed in light of 5th Edition, and the most recent copy of C:SM.

 

So, here it is - in what order can you fire the Helios' weapons, at what targets and what with.

 

The cheesiest combo I can see is (assuming the Helios remains stationary) fire 2x TLLC at one target using the standard firing rules and then declare the WW will fire as per PoTMS at the supporting infantry.

 

The rules flow chart would go something like: Declare for LC fire therefore WW cannot fire (as per pg 58 of the BRB, under Ordnance Weapons) --> PotMS allows for the firing of an additional weapon, at a seperate target - nowhere is ordnance not permitted, however it is hardly a normal weapon.

 

Personally, I have no qualms with this, as (a) it appears to be RAW and RAI (even though possibly unintended) and more significantly - the wretched thing costs more than a standard Raider, is inferior in carrying capacity and will invariably spend the entire game as a mobile bunker. What do you, more learned men think?

[werewolf_nr]

I think you have made a fair assessment of the rules and 5th edition in general here. I would agree that the WW launcher could be the "one more weapon than it is normally able to" fire. In the end, it is Apocalypse and rules always get a touch funny there.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Seems legit. All I have to say about the tactic itself is :D

[nighthawks]

The firing of an ordinance weapon, without a special rule to the contrary, forbids the firing of ALL other weapons. So fire it, and use the PoTMS to fire "one more weapon" in the form of an LC. I can't see where PoTMS overrides the very inclusive language given in the BRB P.58.

[Aidoneus]

As far as I can tell, you have a choice: either fire one ordnance weapon, or fire all other weapons (assuming you're stationary). So you choose to fire your non-ordnance weapons (2 godhammers). Then, after that, you use PotMS to fire 1 additional weapon. PotMS doesn't say anything about what type of weapon you can fire, or about what other weapons the vehicle has fired already. So I don't see anything wrong with Vassakov's explanation.

[nighthawks]

only that the firing, at all, of an ordinance weapon excludes all other firing. thus to use PoTMS to fire the WW launcher means that 1 too many weapons has been fired (ord + 1 via PoTMS is the maximum).

[Aidoneus]

I think order matters here. When you declare the two lascannons are firing, no ordnance has been fired, and so it's perfectly legal. Then, after that, you use PotMS to fire the WW. Since nothing says PotMS cannot be used to fire that weapon, and nothing says that firing other weapons precludes ordnance, it's legal.

 

Remember, "a denies b" is NOT the same as "b denies a" or even "a and b deny each other."

[Praeger]

This is great!!!

 

Now my Ork looted vehicle can fire its 2x big shootas BEFORE firing its ordanace as its the ORDANACE when fired that stops my big shootas!!!

 

Or my Whirlwind can now fire its storm bolter as well!!!

 

Sorry guys - please re-read the section on shooting which state that all shooting happens at the same time. Dosnt matter if its at difrent BS, or if rolled at difrent times, all shooting is assumed to happen at the same time, and ordance fire stops other weapons being fired. End of story really.

[Aidoneus]

Now my Ork looted vehicle can fire its 2x big shootas BEFORE firing its ordanace as its the ORDANACE when fired that stops my big shootas!!!

 

Or my Whirlwind can now fire its storm bolter as well!!!

Well, no. These vehicles don't have PotMS. That's what makes all the difference. Of course one vehicle's shots all fire at the same time normally, and so there is no "order" like I was talking about before. But with Machine Spirit it's different. See below.

 

Sorry guys - please re-read the section on shooting which state that all shooting happens at the same time. Dosnt matter if its at difrent BS, or if rolled at difrent times, all shooting is assumed to happen at the same time, and ordance fire stops other weapons being fired. End of story really.

Of course shooting does not all occur at the same time. Once you fire with one of your units/vehicles at an enemy unit, he then takes saves and removes models. Then you fire another unit, and so on. Which models he removed due to one unit's shots will effect future units' abilities to shoot. For example, if he removes models carefully the first time a unit is shot in the round, he can prevent other units from having line of sight. Also, by removing models, he prevents future units from hitting as many models with blast/flamer templates. So clearly there is a sequential order here, and arguing that there is not is preposterous.

 

Because PotMS fires separately, it acts like another unit shooting. Sure, it uses a gun from the same vehicle, but it is clearly not the same vehicle shooting, because it can target a different unit, can fire an additional weapon, etc. After all, you can fire the tank's guns, go on and fire other units, and then come back and use PotMS. So clearly it's separate. And therefore, it follows the sequential ordering, unlike one tank (your looted vehicle and whirlwind) firing multiple weapons by itself.

[Praeger]

Because PotMS fires separately, it acts like another unit shooting

 

No, what it acts like is a special model being able to fire differently from the rest in the squad he is in. Such as Long Fangs.

 

Sure, it uses a gun from the same vehicle, but it is clearly not the same vehicle shooting, because it can target a different unit, can fire an additional weapon, etc.

 

Sorry, but it is the same vehicle shooting. It has special rules but it is still the same vehicle. Just like a heavy weapon in a tac squad is difrent from the marines firing bolter's, but is still part of the unit.

 

After all, you can fire the tank's guns, go on and fire other units, and then come back and use PotMS.

 

Please provide a rules quote.

 

Sorry but dont think you really understand the shooting phase.

 

Step 1 - check LOS - ALL MODELS IN LOS CAN SHOOT

 

Notice this is not done in a BS step or by weapon step, if at the start they can see they can shoot. Also notice in the expanded rules this nice little note:

 

a player may choose not to fire certain models.....This must be declared before checking range, as ALL MODELS IN THE UNIT FIRE AT THE SAME TIME

 

Step 3 - Roll to hit

 

Iv ignored step 2 as its not needed here. Step 3 has more important detail to it.

 

Notice the area entitled "fast rolling" which says this:

 

When a unit fires, all of its weapons fire at the same time, SO YOU SHOULD REALLY ROLL ALL OF ITS TO HIT DICE TOGETHER. Sometimes there will be different weapons OR DIFFERENT BS IN THE SAME UNIT, in which case we find it easier to use different coloured dice.

 

Now iv also checked over the vehicle rules and can see nothing that states differently to this.

 

So we are left only with the POTMS rules which allow it to fire 1 additional weapon, and if desired at a different target.

 

Does this go agaisnt the normal rules? Yes - in the effect that it can fire at a difrent target. Does it go against any other rules? No. So what does this mean?

 

1 - when using POTMS you MUST declare BEFORE rolling any dice. Pick which unit it will be firing at.

 

Why? all rolls are done AT THE SAME TIME and this is AFTER targets and range have been chosen and checked. POTMS does not in any way say this is done differently.

 

2 - roll the dice AT THE SAME TIME.

 

So now that we have cleared that up by looking at what the rules actually say, please again tell me why this would work any differently from a whirlwind?

[shatter]

All models in a unit fire (and are rolled for) at the same time. Weapons on armor are the same.

 

Regardless, ALL exceptions for PotMS listed are for superseding movement and firing constraints. You can't add exceptions.