Veahirin Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 After reading this short story I was curious to see if anyone was converted to Imperial Truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I can't imagine why. I found the story amazingly ironic, a god was trying to talk someone out of believing in religion. Its actually kind of funny really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 We are not allowed to talk about real world religion and whatnot on the forums so a thread about whether a person now believes in the 'imperial truth' (atheism) or not because of a 40k story isn't exactly appropriate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I enjoyed the story, though I knew who the mysterious wanderer was when he arrived. And I've always been a firm believer of the Imperial Truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I advise people to think before writting in this subject since b&C does not allow discussion about real world religion. So basically as long as the book is discussed, that's fine, but don't step on the boundaries and put it into real world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veahirin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Just for clearification. I wasn't trying to see if someone was actually converted... Simply just wanted to see what everyone though about the Emperor and the way he presented himself and his ideals. +++SPOILER+++ Personally I thought that he was extremely harsh, granted he would calm down, but the priest was on the defence since moment one. I do agree with the first post though in that it was ironic that he was trying to convince the priest of no gods, but he himself is one. Also, I thought it funny that even though the Emperor is a powerful Farseer that the Priest had more foresight than him "Be careful that they don't set you up to bea god." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Just for clearification. I wasn't trying to see if someone was actually converted... Simply just wanted to see what everyone though about the Emperor and the way he presented himself and his ideals. +++SPOILER+++ Personally I thought that he was extremely harsh, granted he would calm down, but the priest was on the defence since moment one. I do agree with the first post though in that it was ironic that he was trying to convince the priest of no gods, but he himself is one. Also, I thought it funny that even though the Emperor is a powerful Farseer that the Priest had more foresight than him "Be careful that they don't set you up to bea god." I think this was a case of titans losing sight of what a common man sees. Sometimes it takes one in a position of no power to help those with much of it to succeed. Imperial Truth was never meant to be anything other than a strategic gamble. The Emperor himself clearly doesn't believe in it. After all his whole goal for 40,000 years was to defeat the chaos gods... So it really puts things in perspective when you look at it that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veahirin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 True, but I wonder how much his 'belief.' was to the chaos gods. If the emperor is like billions of humans then his belief in them would have fueled them even more in theory. Just a thought. Interesting idea, create a god through destroying religion... I don't remember that one in Art of War. -V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 lol if the emperor was a god then he wouldn't need the help of a 'mere mortal' lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 lol if the emperor was a god then he wouldn't need the help of a 'mere mortal' lol Thats not true at all, mythology is chalked full of gods requiring the aid of mortals. I think you confuse god with God. One is all powerful, omniscient, and untouchable. Not to mention perfect in every way as well. While the other is a supremely powerful being that still has inherent flaws. Nobody is claiming that the Emperor is the Judeo/Christian God. But rather a god. *edit* found this on the Merriam-Webster dictionary. 1god Listen to the pronunciation of 1god Pronunciation: \ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god Date: before 12th century 1capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe bChristian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind 2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship ; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality3: a person or thing of supreme value4: a powerful ruler Notice that definition one has the capitalized remark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1973608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
plaguereaper Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I loved that short story, it was very well written. and it looks like Graham McNeill did his research on anti-theism lol. i think it was very ironic, that the emperor believed so much that there were no gods, but he would be later worshiped as one. i also think that the priests thoughts at the ending shows that even the emperor is not completely right. in how religion at that point is not pure evil, but how the priest remembers the hope he gave people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I loved that short story, it was very well written. and it looks like Graham McNeill did his research on anti-theism lol. i think it was very ironic, that the emperor believed so much that there were no gods, but he would be later worshiped as one. i also think that the priests thoughts at the ending shows that even the emperor is not completely right. in how religion at that point is not pure evil, but how the priest remembers the hope he gave people. Thats the funny part, I don't believe the Emperor believed what he was saying. He was well aware of the chaos gods so... I think he was passionate about his mission to save humanity and this was huge step in his plan. But honestly I don't think he truly believed what he was preaching. He really wanted to sell it though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Caesar_ Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I agree with Prathios. The irony (and, perhaps, hypocrisy) of the Emperor's argument belies the fact that the Imperial Truth was never anything but another weapon in the Emperor's arsenal against the chaos gods. If I can get you to believe that the person/ideal you are loyal to is wrong or doesn't exist, then that person/ideal loses power as it loses its support. It's PSYOPS. As far as the story itself, I was once again reminded of why Graham McNeill is my least favorite BL author. The characters were terribly written. The Emperor came off as some arrogant teenager who used adolescent logic and historical oversimplification to argue his point whereas the priest simply acted as his stereotypical punching bag. They lacked any real depth just like the story. It could have been done so much better had it been written by almost anyone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 It's not really ironic. The Emperor realizes there are no gods. With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods". The Emperor is just the most powerful thing ever to exist and the Chaos entities are just powerful creatures of the Warp, and he acknowledges this and tries to make sure everyone else does too. Even in 40k there's technically no magic per se, only science so far beyond the confines of the common comprehension of physics that it seems like magic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Caesar_ Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 It's not really ironic. The Emperor realizes there are no gods. With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods". The Emperor is just the most powerful thing ever to exist and the Chaos entities are just powerful creatures of the Warp, and he acknowledges this and tries to make sure everyone else does too. Even in 40k there's technically no magic per se, only science so far beyond the confines of the common comprehension of physics that it seems like magic. The Emperor always made it a point to hide the nature of the warp from humanity. The Imperial Truth was never an effort to enlighten humanity to the nature of the warp, but rather hide its nature and the Chaos gods from humanity. He also never made any effort to explain how he, a being with immense power, was not divine. Even the primarchs themselves were kept largely in the dark about the nature of the warp and the Chaos gods. So given the fact that the Emperor knew of the existence of the Chaos gods (sentient beings of great power, much like the gods of mythology), but preached that no such entities existed, then his argument in the story was at best ironic and at worst hypocritical. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Well it wasn't hypocritical really. He had a perfectly good reason NOT to tell them. Knowing about Chaos at all makes people susceptible to Chaos. It was more a case of "I'm not a god, I promise. I could explain it too you but that's really too complicated and dangerous. Just trust me." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Not knowing about Chaos also makes them susceptible, on the level that Chaos may seek them out, and on the level that if they find out about it, they both are unprepared for its dangers and may start to mistrust other things they have been told. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Aye, but knowing makes them arguably MORE susceptible since it can catch curiosity, and just being AWARE is sort of like being given the radio signal that Chaos broadcasts on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 True. On the other hand, either way, you have a radio. Least this way you know what you'll be getting into. For a being who believes in the ultimate triumph of humanity, the Emperor sure does sell us short. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 True. On the other hand, either way, you have a radio. Least this way you know what you'll be getting into. For a being who believes in the ultimate triumph of humanity, the Emperor sure does sell us short. :D as you say, the ultimate triumph of humanity. maybe in his eyes we still need a long, long way to go. and lets remember he sat through the last 30,000 years of humanity...i would have low expectations for us too. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods". What was the purpose of quotes and capitalization here... it doesn't make sense in context. Second, how do the warp gods not fit one of the four definitions of the word god? They are very clearly gods. If you try to say they are just powerful entities who live in the warp it makes you sound like your just calling a dog a canine. Powerful entities who live in the warp, exhibit nigh omnipotence, have eternal life, and represent abstract principles. Yeah that doesn't sound anything like a god at all. (sorry about the sarcasm I did lay it on pretty think :no: ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deus lo volt Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 The Imperial Truth doomed Humanity to its' present exsistence. It did nothing to prepare anyone when the confrontation with Chaos finally came. I really enjoyed the evoultion of Sinndermann in Horus Risng, False Gods, and Flight of the Eisenstein. In the end the most powerful Human to ever live couldn't even convert an old man. Uriah-1, Bob-0 :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods". What was the purpose of quotes and capitalization here... it doesn't make sense in context. Second, how do the warp gods not fit one of the four definitions of the word god? They are very clearly gods. If you try to say they are just powerful entities who live in the warp it makes you sound like your just calling a dog a canine. Powerful entities who live in the warp, exhibit nigh omnipotence, have eternal life, and represent abstract principles. Yeah that doesn't sound anything like a god at all. (sorry about the sarcasm I did lay it on pretty think :) ) "Chaos Gods" is a proper noun referring to the gods of Chaos. The quotes around "Gods" was to denote the false title. They're just powerful beings supposedly still grounded on 40k's scientific principals. Gods are inherently unbound by laws of science. Effectively the best definition of a god is "an immortal sentient force of unlimited magical* power". *magic - here being a a force totally independent of science Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 deus lo volt Posted Today, 04:43 PM The Imperial Truth doomed Humanity to its' present exsistence. It did nothing to prepare anyone when the confrontation with Chaos finally came. That's what I love about 40k. Nothing is ever the 'ultimate solution' to Humanity's problems, despite what the characters proposing it believe. The secular factions and the religious factions both have just as many advantages and just as many disadvantages, and that just leaves us arguing about which would have been better with no real answer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods". What was the purpose of quotes and capitalization here... it doesn't make sense in context. Second, how do the warp gods not fit one of the four definitions of the word god? They are very clearly gods. If you try to say they are just powerful entities who live in the warp it makes you sound like your just calling a dog a canine. Powerful entities who live in the warp, exhibit nigh omnipotence, have eternal life, and represent abstract principles. Yeah that doesn't sound anything like a god at all. (sorry about the sarcasm I did lay it on pretty think :P ) "Chaos Gods" is a proper noun referring to the gods of Chaos. The quotes around "Gods" was to denote the false title. They're just powerful beings supposedly still grounded on 40k's scientific principals. Gods are inherently unbound by laws of science. Effectively the best definition of a god is "an immortal sentient force of unlimited magical* power". *magic - here being a a force totally independent of science What makes you think that? I don't think there is anything in the concept of god which means they are unbound by laws of science. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/#findComment-1974731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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