Prathios Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods". What was the purpose of quotes and capitalization here... it doesn't make sense in context. Second, how do the warp gods not fit one of the four definitions of the word god? They are very clearly gods. If you try to say they are just powerful entities who live in the warp it makes you sound like your just calling a dog a canine. Powerful entities who live in the warp, exhibit nigh omnipotence, have eternal life, and represent abstract principles. Yeah that doesn't sound anything like a god at all. (sorry about the sarcasm I did lay it on pretty think :lol: ) "Chaos Gods" is a proper noun referring to the gods of Chaos. The quotes around "Gods" was to denote the false title. They're just powerful beings supposedly still grounded on 40k's scientific principals. Gods are inherently unbound by laws of science. Effectively the best definition of a god is "an immortal sentient force of unlimited magical* power". *magic - here being a a force totally independent of science What makes you think that? I don't think there is anything in the concept of god which means they are unbound by laws of science. Well yeah that and physics doesn't work in the Warp so technically the warp gods are unbound by the laws of science. Hell, there are planets in the warp shaped like, bowls, flowers, and other strange objects. In the eye of terror a bloodthirster can destroy a planet by growing bigger than the planet and hitting it with his axe. Im not making any of this up either this is a real instance from one of the books. I believe it was in a short story collection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1974802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods". What was the purpose of quotes and capitalization here... it doesn't make sense in context. Second, how do the warp gods not fit one of the four definitions of the word god? They are very clearly gods. If you try to say they are just powerful entities who live in the warp it makes you sound like your just calling a dog a canine. Powerful entities who live in the warp, exhibit nigh omnipotence, have eternal life, and represent abstract principles. Yeah that doesn't sound anything like a god at all. (sorry about the sarcasm I did lay it on pretty think :lol: ) "Chaos Gods" is a proper noun referring to the gods of Chaos. The quotes around "Gods" was to denote the false title. They're just powerful beings supposedly still grounded on 40k's scientific principals. Gods are inherently unbound by laws of science. Effectively the best definition of a god is "an immortal sentient force of unlimited magical* power". *magic - here being a a force totally independent of science What makes you think that? I don't think there is anything in the concept of god which means they are unbound by laws of science. Well yeah that and physics doesn't work in the Warp so technically the warp gods are unbound by the laws of science. Hell, there are planets in the warp shaped like, bowls, flowers, and other strange objects. In the eye of terror a bloodthirster can destroy a planet by growing bigger than the planet and hitting it with his axe. Im not making any of this up either this is a real instance from one of the books. I believe it was in a short story collection. Just because the warp exhibits those things doesn't mean they don't conform to the laws of science in the warp. Even a brief look at quantum physics reveals stranger things than the warp, and who says that doesn't conform to the laws of physics? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1974820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deus lo volt Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 deus lo volt Posted Today, 04:43 PM The Imperial Truth doomed Humanity to its' present exsistence. It did nothing to prepare anyone when the confrontation with Chaos finally came. That's what I love about 40k. Nothing is ever the 'ultimate solution' to Humanity's problems, despite what the characters proposing it believe. The secular factions and the religious factions both have just as many advantages and just as many disadvantages, and that just leaves us arguing about which would have been better with no real answer. Agree, great post! :drool: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1974855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods". What was the purpose of quotes and capitalization here... it doesn't make sense in context. Second, how do the warp gods not fit one of the four definitions of the word god? They are very clearly gods. If you try to say they are just powerful entities who live in the warp it makes you sound like your just calling a dog a canine. Powerful entities who live in the warp, exhibit nigh omnipotence, have eternal life, and represent abstract principles. Yeah that doesn't sound anything like a god at all. (sorry about the sarcasm I did lay it on pretty think ;) ) "Chaos Gods" is a proper noun referring to the gods of Chaos. The quotes around "Gods" was to denote the false title. They're just powerful beings supposedly still grounded on 40k's scientific principals. Gods are inherently unbound by laws of science. Effectively the best definition of a god is "an immortal sentient force of unlimited magical* power". *magic - here being a a force totally independent of science What makes you think that? I don't think there is anything in the concept of god which means they are unbound by laws of science. Well yeah that and physics doesn't work in the Warp so technically the warp gods are unbound by the laws of science. Hell, there are planets in the warp shaped like, bowls, flowers, and other strange objects. In the eye of terror a bloodthirster can destroy a planet by growing bigger than the planet and hitting it with his axe. Im not making any of this up either this is a real instance from one of the books. I believe it was in a short story collection. Just because the warp exhibits those things doesn't mean they don't conform to the laws of science in the warp. Even a brief look at quantum physics reveals stranger things than the warp, and who says that doesn't conform to the laws of physics? Exactly. There's plenty of instances of Imperial science and for that matter Eldar science harnessing the powers of the Warp. The Animus Speculum, Geller Fields, Warp Drives, Force Weapons, Psychic Hoods, D-Cannons etc etc etc etc. All the Warp is is a scientific phenomenon beyond the scope of basic physics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1974910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I'm not sure you guys understand the whole point of Chaos. The warp plays by NO rules. There is no "warp" science. To even try and contain something in a box like the warp shows that you do not grasp the point. Harnessing the warp with D-cannons and such is simply channeling some of the energy of the warp into a real space area. This proves nothing. Geller fields simply make a pocket of realspace inside the warp where physics still apply. So it is possible to create things that interact with the warp. I find it odd though in mentality that seeks to confine everything into the realm of human understanding, it seems arrogant to me. There are simply things that don't play by our rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1974967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I'm not sure you guys understand the whole point of Chaos. The warp plays by NO rules. There is no "warp" science. To even try and contain something in a box like the warp shows that you do not grasp the point. Harnessing the warp with D-cannons and such is simply channeling some of the energy of the warp into a real space area. This proves nothing. Geller fields simply make a pocket of realspace inside the warp where physics still apply. So it is possible to create things that interact with the warp. I find it odd though in mentality that seeks to confine everything into the realm of human understanding, it seems arrogant to me. There are simply things that don't play by our rules. Science isn't just the realm of human understanding though. All it is is instantiating something in nomic, that is to say law-like behaviour. Even if, ostensibly, that behaviour is lawless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1974972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veahirin Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 True, We must remember that when we say 'science,' we are refering to a mutable thing. Not that anyone would disagree in this chat, but simply we cannot classify something based on its relation to a mutable object unless we maintain the relative discrepency. i.e. the chaos gods don't become less god-like if they follow more scientifc laws simply because science has progressed. if we maintained that god-hood was acting outside of the scope of known science then we would be considered gods to the ancient caveman in many ways. blah blah blah, I hope this made sense to someone. -V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1974993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Exactly, thus to be a true god a being would have to be infinity beyond any understanding of science from now til any point in the future. In reality Chaos ISN'T chaos at all. "Chaos" is actually VERY ordered and bound by rules. In fact Chaos is probably one of the biggest misnomers I've ever seen. "Slightly less predictable than real-space stuff" is a more accurate name, but "Slightly less predictable than real-space stuff Space Marines" doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "Chaos Space Marines". Hell, Khorne's demons are probably more well organized and disciplined than the Space Wolves. Weirdly the Khorne Berzerkers are really the only chaotic thing about the Blood God. The Warp apparently follows somewhat understood scientific rules to the point that it can be harnessed for combat and travel and many other things besides. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1975026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 I actually agree with Prathios on the Warp. it is not in any way scientific of logical or whatever. it was specifically stated in the earlier fluff (i think it was realms of chaos) that the warp is anti-reality and i don't think magic is 'reality' therefore they fit the title. the whole idea of the warp is that it is completely unbound by any science and cannot be comprehended EVER. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1975170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 the whole idea of the warp is that it is completely unbound by any science and cannot be comprehended EVER. That's not strictly true, actually. There have been multiple instances of humans (normally psykers) comprehending the full nature of the warp. Of course, the fact that their heads exploded a split-second after comprehending the warp has nothing to do with this. :cry: Comprehension is theoretically possible for a human. You just have to be protected by the Warp in order to survive it. Other than that, comprehension and human life are mutually exclusive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1975368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 little mechanicum spoiler. so maybe Jonas Milus was one of these people who were able to do so. I mean we was theoretically able to obtain all the knowledge of the universe through the Akashic Reader. And once again he died shortly after ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1975448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 The Emperor understands it. But then he's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond normal human too. Hell, he probably took Cliff Notes for the AdMech on what they needed to know to harness the Warp so that their heads WOULDN'T explode. And then maybe some AdMech guys got curious and started researching further and their heads DID start exploding. As a result a high ranking Magos decided it would be safer if no one tried to understand anything and they started all the Machine God worship stuff. Wouldn't it be weird if The Imperium' biggest flaw was a matter of practicality? The Old Ones understood all the science behind the Warp too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1975630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The Old Ones were not human ;) and would you kindly point out where it is stated that the emperor understands the warp i have never seen that before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1976159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The Old Ones were not human :D and would you kindly point out where it is stated that the emperor understands the warp i have never seen that before. Science doesn't just apply to humans understanding though does it, so if the old ones got it, then it shows it is not anomolous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1976225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The Emperor understands it. But then he's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond normal human too. Hell, he probably took Cliff Notes for the AdMech on what they needed to know to harness the Warp so that their heads WOULDN'T explode. And then maybe some AdMech guys got curious and started researching further and their heads DID start exploding. As a result a high ranking Magos decided it would be safer if no one tried to understand anything and they started all the Machine God worship stuff. Wouldn't it be weird if The Imperium' biggest flaw was a matter of practicality? The Old Ones understood all the science behind the Warp too. The Necrons are the most advanced race in the galaxy and they understand the warp too. They understand that it doesn't play by their rules so they want it shut down. Chaos isn't a misnomer. And simply tossing that out there without specific examples or some kind of sound theory doesn't really work for me. perhaps you would like to start a thread on this? What makes chaos true to its namesake is that sometimes it behaves very much like a realm with rules, but just when you think you know what the rules are they change. Hell Tzeentch puts plots and schemes in play that end up screwing himself over and he does so on purpose to stay true to his nature. Problem is you cannot tell which is which until they play out. But once again if you want to call it a misnomer you need to first define Chaos. Not your definition, the textbook definition. @Veahirin You make an interesting point but the chaos gods cannot be viewed through a scientific lens. So that mutable quality cannot ever contain something that is beyond science. The only constant in the warp is there are no constants. This means that no matter how advanced the science is it cannot contain the warp. Science requires laws and rules that cannot apply in the warp. Again though because science has advanced does that make the gods from various cultures not gods since we can explain the phenomena that they were created to explain? I'd like to see this arguement made with any seriousness. Say Zeus was not a god cause they didn't know any better. Its mythology, if it says they're gods they're gods. Same applies here. We are told the gods of the warp are gods of the warp. It only furthers the argument that they fit the definition for god that I have already provided. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1976475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 What makes chaos true to its namesake is that sometimes it behaves very much like a realm with rules, but just when you think you know what the rules are they change. I see the warp rather like a combination of Wikipedia and a living rulebook. Everyone is constantly trying to change it to fit what they think, and everyone's opinions are at cross-purposes. The inhabitants of the warp are forever changing it to suit their purposes (which are not constant either), changing things to the the way they want, someone else changing them again, then trying to change it back to how it was. Just imagine that, but on an infinite scale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1976569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The Emperor understands it. In The Lighning Tower it is said that "he knows that he doesn't know". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1976573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Its strongly suggested the warp just is the culmination of desires, fears, thoughts of material species. Which is why it can be changed by things like the Eldar's fall creating Slaanesh. The gods are sentient paragons of various desires and emotions, this is not to say that they are not gods. As i have already said though it doesn't indicate the warp is not law like in the widest scale, even if that is beyond anyone's comprehension. As i've already said science is just a description and predictor, totally irrespective of a certain species understanding of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1976613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veahirin Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 The Emperor understands it. But then he's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond normal human too. Hell, he probably took Cliff Notes for the AdMech on what they needed to know to harness the Warp so that their heads WOULDN'T explode. And then maybe some AdMech guys got curious and started researching further and their heads DID start exploding. As a result a high ranking Magos decided it would be safer if no one tried to understand anything and they started all the Machine God worship stuff. Wouldn't it be weird if The Imperium' biggest flaw was a matter of practicality? The Old Ones understood all the science behind the Warp too. The Necrons are the most advanced race in the galaxy and they understand the warp too. They understand that it doesn't play by their rules so they want it shut down. Chaos isn't a misnomer. And simply tossing that out there without specific examples or some kind of sound theory doesn't really work for me. perhaps you would like to start a thread on this? What makes chaos true to its namesake is that sometimes it behaves very much like a realm with rules, but just when you think you know what the rules are they change. Hell Tzeentch puts plots and schemes in play that end up screwing himself over and he does so on purpose to stay true to his nature. Problem is you cannot tell which is which until they play out. But once again if you want to call it a misnomer you need to first define Chaos. Not your definition, the textbook definition. @Veahirin You make an interesting point but the chaos gods cannot be viewed through a scientific lens. So that mutable quality cannot ever contain something that is beyond science. The only constant in the warp is there are no constants. This means that no matter how advanced the science is it cannot contain the warp. Science requires laws and rules that cannot apply in the warp. Again though because science has advanced does that make the gods from various cultures not gods since we can explain the phenomena that they were created to explain? I'd like to see this arguement made with any seriousness. Say Zeus was not a god cause they didn't know any better. Its mythology, if it says they're gods they're gods. Same applies here. We are told the gods of the warp are gods of the warp. It only furthers the argument that they fit the definition for god that I have already provided. Well, said. Though Im not quite sure if you were in agreement with me or playing devils advocate. From what I remember I was only stating that we cannot define godhood from a relative standpoint to science in its current form. We can, however hand out the title freely based on other criteria, i.e. great hair. In a more practical application we could describe god-hood in relation to the Chaos gods as 'god-hood through the enactment and manipulation of scientific principles at will." This would set them on a parallel path with any scientific progession as well as seperate them from the mortals, because mortals need technology to manipulate and enact scientific laws (i.e. flight) where-as gods can do it by shear force of will. P.S. I sent a PM to you regarding your Zues question... Since it borders on real life I thought it better. -V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1976998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The Emperor understands it. But then he's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond normal human too. Hell, he probably took Cliff Notes for the AdMech on what they needed to know to harness the Warp so that their heads WOULDN'T explode. And then maybe some AdMech guys got curious and started researching further and their heads DID start exploding. As a result a high ranking Magos decided it would be safer if no one tried to understand anything and they started all the Machine God worship stuff. Wouldn't it be weird if The Imperium' biggest flaw was a matter of practicality? The Old Ones understood all the science behind the Warp too. The Necrons are the most advanced race in the galaxy and they understand the warp too. They understand that it doesn't play by their rules so they want it shut down. Chaos isn't a misnomer. And simply tossing that out there without specific examples or some kind of sound theory doesn't really work for me. perhaps you would like to start a thread on this? What makes chaos true to its namesake is that sometimes it behaves very much like a realm with rules, but just when you think you know what the rules are they change. Hell Tzeentch puts plots and schemes in play that end up screwing himself over and he does so on purpose to stay true to his nature. Problem is you cannot tell which is which until they play out. But once again if you want to call it a misnomer you need to first define Chaos. Not your definition, the textbook definition. @Veahirin You make an interesting point but the chaos gods cannot be viewed through a scientific lens. So that mutable quality cannot ever contain something that is beyond science. The only constant in the warp is there are no constants. This means that no matter how advanced the science is it cannot contain the warp. Science requires laws and rules that cannot apply in the warp. Again though because science has advanced does that make the gods from various cultures not gods since we can explain the phenomena that they were created to explain? I'd like to see this arguement made with any seriousness. Say Zeus was not a god cause they didn't know any better. Its mythology, if it says they're gods they're gods. Same applies here. We are told the gods of the warp are gods of the warp. It only furthers the argument that they fit the definition for god that I have already provided. Well, said. Though Im not quite sure if you were in agreement with me or playing devils advocate. From what I remember I was only stating that we cannot define godhood from a relative standpoint to science in its current form. We can, however hand out the title freely based on other criteria, i.e. great hair. In a more practical application we could describe god-hood in relation to the Chaos gods as 'god-hood through the enactment and manipulation of scientific principles at will." This would set them on a parallel path with any scientific progession as well as seperate them from the mortals, because mortals need technology to manipulate and enact scientific laws (i.e. flight) where-as gods can do it by shear force of will. P.S. I sent a PM to you regarding your Zues question... Since it borders on real life I thought it better. -V Isn't that what i've been saying all along, people are taking science to mean what human comprehend at any given time. Whereas i've mentioned many times science is just what governs how things work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1977024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veahirin Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 @Astalon Or in other words, gods aren't ignoring of scientific law. But are rather merely the enactors of a higher one? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1977031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 @Astalon Or in other words, gods aren't ignoring of scientific law. But are rather merely the enactors of a higher one? Yes in the sense that science is just the desciption of causal interactions at any level, therefore gods aren't exempt from science but this doesn't make them any less powerful or divine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1977037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veahirin Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 So then based on that description we could say that the warp is purely science... Since it is all casual interactions all the time. And if then the warp is based on science then it can be conquered/tamed by technology. -V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1977086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 except that the warp isn't based on science at all. you cannot argue that it is because official fluff states it is the opposite. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1977337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 If you find the quote where it says its not based on science i'd be interested to see it. Even so, it'd be based on a misunderstanding of what science is. As long as there are causal interactions there is a science to describe it. I don't think anyone would claim the warp isn't causal, as it bears relation to the emotions etc of 'real' species as i said earlier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167436-the-last-church/page/2/#findComment-1977372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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