The Last Church

[Sons of Horus]

quote? more like quotes actually. read realms of chaos.

 

edit: and also every other book that even briefly describes the warp.

[Astalon]

Doesn't really address my main point though, they were probably saying it doesn't conform to our knowledge of science, not science as a pursuit and descriptive/predictive power.

[Elurindel]

I thought the story was pretty good, all in all. Even if the Emperor is portrayed as something of a dick. He tracks down the last church, simply to examine the last priest like a bug on a windshield, before saying that some knowledge is best left forgotten as he orders the destruction of the church and all the books left inside.

Looking at that, and at Mechanicum, it's clear that he's really running off a script inside his own head, and doesn't much care for the people that burn as long as he can realise his vision of a galaxy under his command.

[Luc O' Luck]

It's not a Galaxy under his Command that he wants. It's a Galaxy with Humanity free of the dangers of the Warp. Everything is always means to an end.

[Prathios]

Doesn't really address my main point though, they were probably saying it doesn't conform to our knowledge of science, not science as a pursuit and descriptive/predictive power.

 

Actually Astalon I would argue that there may not be casual interactions. Because everything in the warp can be defined differently. What would be a causal interaction in real space under normal physical rules may not be required in the warp based on this thought process. Basically its the line of thinking that what if what we call red is really blue. Well in the warp what would be a casual interaction is really a peach tea. When the rules cease to apply the rules cease to apply.

[Astalon]

Doesn't really address my main point though, they were probably saying it doesn't conform to our knowledge of science, not science as a pursuit and descriptive/predictive power.

 

Actually Astalon I would argue that there may not be casual interactions. Because everything in the warp can be defined differently. What would be a causal interaction in real space under normal physical rules may not be required in the warp based on this thought process. Basically its the line of thinking that what if what we call red is really blue. Well in the warp what would be a casual interaction is really a peach tea. When the rules cease to apply the rules cease to apply.

 

 

I see what you're getting at. Do you want to say there are no causal relations in the warp?

 

I can't see how it matters if things are picked out differently in the warp to real space, the principle of sufficient seems to suggest that there must be causal interactions. The fact that warp travel occurs suggests this must at least be true, for it to be possible at all.

[Prathios]

Doesn't really address my main point though, they were probably saying it doesn't conform to our knowledge of science, not science as a pursuit and descriptive/predictive power.

 

Actually Astalon I would argue that there may not be casual interactions. Because everything in the warp can be defined differently. What would be a causal interaction in real space under normal physical rules may not be required in the warp based on this thought process. Basically its the line of thinking that what if what we call red is really blue. Well in the warp what would be a casual interaction is really a peach tea. When the rules cease to apply the rules cease to apply.

 

 

I see what you're getting at. Do you want to say there are no causal relations in the warp?

 

I can't see how it matters if things are picked out differently in the warp to real space, the principle of sufficient seems to suggest that there must be causal interactions. The fact that warp travel occurs suggests this must at least be true, for it to be possible at all.

 

Yeah let me clarify a bit more. For instance in the warp it is more than possible for an effect to be produced (say a nuclear missile becomes a potted plant for instance) but have no cause. It was a random event with no causal relationship. So yes I think causality is defunct in the warp. I don't believe the principle of sufficient reason applies either. Because again these principles, laws, and theories only work in a universe that adheres to strict rules. It breaks down inside a singularity or in this case in the warp.

 

If event X occurs (the potted plant turning into a whale for instance) there does not have to be a reason for this occurrence. Thus there is no causal relationship, and because there is no reason at all for this whale to be in existence (since it was just a potted plant and there is no reason for its changing to a whale) there is no justification for why it exists and thus the principle of sufficient breaks down as well.

 

Part of this is also due to the fact that say a simple law like Mass x velocity = force is true, correct? In the warp Mass x Velocity = rubber chickens. Because there is a total breakdown of everything we know as real and factual any law based on scientific principle gets flipped upside down. And because causal relationships don't apply there is no valid scientific explanation on a basic level for this change.

 

As for warp travel this is explained through the geller field. (which I would very much like an explanation on in some form for as of now no concrete explanation of how it works exists.) The field makes a small pocket of real space for a ship to occupy and inside the rules of physics apply. The astronomican is projected as a shadow (or in this particular case a beacon of white light) in the warp so its the only constant in the entire warp due to its grounding in real space and the nature of psychic interaction with the warp.

 

Now the real brain teaser is in interaction between real space and the warp. When this occurs I think you do have causal relationships. Such as the example that the Emperor projects the astronomicon into the warp X which causes a beacon in the warp Y. There is even limited spatial relationship with the warp and real space. This spatial relationship however is not constant and thus follows the chaotic pattern already described.

[Astalon]

@ Prathios: thanks for the expansion on your point.

 

I accept your position on things coming in to existence, as i believe you have done more reading on the warp than i have. I'm still confused in the area of relations between things that are in one shape or another, say demon x touches demon y, i assume they must expect something stable to occur otherwise it would be impossible for them to exist in the warp. I think this because their actions cannot be made in a way to achieve certain ends or even secure their own continued existence, whereas it seems that many demons continue to exist over a long period of time.

 

Its an interesting fact about the gellar fields, i didn't realise that's how they worked. Still some principle must apply in getting to the warp, prior to trying to continue to exist within it.

[Prathios]

@ Prathios: thanks for the expansion on your point.

 

I accept your position on things coming in to existence, as i believe you have done more reading on the warp than i have. I'm still confused in the area of relations between things that are in one shape or another, say demon x touches demon y, i assume they must expect something stable to occur otherwise it would be impossible for them to exist in the warp. I think this because their actions cannot be made in a way to achieve certain ends or even secure their own continued existence, whereas it seems that many demons continue to exist over a long period of time.

 

Its an interesting fact about the gellar fields, i didn't realise that's how they worked. Still some principle must apply in getting to the warp, prior to trying to continue to exist within it.

 

Ok so say demon x touches demon y, well did he really? If demon X is more powerful than demon y he can enforce his view of the warp upon demon y and therefore did touch him. If demon y is more powerful than he can decide that no, in fact demon x is a fruit salad. Its also dangerous to use words like impossible when dealing with the warp. The very fact that the principle of sufficient isn't required should point to that. A demons existence is based on its willpower or at least its perceived willpower. It also depends on the wills of the more powerful daemons above it. I actually have read a short story where a lord of change is made into an axe because the will of a bloodthirster was greater than his own. The lord of change had no say in the matter.

 

As for the geller fields yeah, I think most principles work until they make full translation to the warp. I have no way to fully back this up other than logical conclusion based on how these transitions are described. However I have read of what occurs when a geller field goes down. It's not pretty. One of the more interesting things is how time can occur in pockets. One other thing of interest is that (this is totally conjecture but again is based on observation and logic) the will of the crew of the ship or rather their belief that they are still on a starship may be all that keeps it intact. Other times the ship is just flat atomized or displaced in time or morphed into something else entirely.

 

However any cases you can present on the principles involved in translation or in the case of a failed geller field are appreciated because this is an area that more difficult to explain for me. After sixty BL books I still can't quite figure out how the ship makes transition or even guides itself by the astronomicon. Or even what system of propulsion they use, though standard drives would work inside the geller field. Oh and one other thing, geller fields arn't foolproof, the influence of the warp can be so strong that at times it can influence things inside the field. How is this explainable?

[Astalon]

@ Prathios: thanks for the expansion on your point.

 

I accept your position on things coming in to existence, as i believe you have done more reading on the warp than i have. I'm still confused in the area of relations between things that are in one shape or another, say demon x touches demon y, i assume they must expect something stable to occur otherwise it would be impossible for them to exist in the warp. I think this because their actions cannot be made in a way to achieve certain ends or even secure their own continued existence, whereas it seems that many demons continue to exist over a long period of time.

 

Its an interesting fact about the gellar fields, i didn't realise that's how they worked. Still some principle must apply in getting to the warp, prior to trying to continue to exist within it.

 

Ok so say demon x touches demon y, well did he really? If demon X is more powerful than demon y he can enforce his view of the warp upon demon y and therefore did touch him. If demon y is more powerful than he can decide that no, in fact demon x is a fruit salad. Its also dangerous to use words like impossible when dealing with the warp. The very fact that the principle of sufficient isn't required should point to that. A demons existence is based on its willpower or at least its perceived willpower. It also depends on the wills of the more powerful daemons above it. I actually have read a short story where a lord of change is made into an axe because the will of a bloodthirster was greater than his own. The lord of change had no say in the matter.

 

As for the geller fields yeah, I think most principles work until they make full translation to the warp. I have no way to fully back this up other than logical conclusion based on how these transitions are described. However I have read of what occurs when a geller field goes down. It's not pretty. One of the more interesting things is how time can occur in pockets. One other thing of interest is that (this is totally conjecture but again is based on observation and logic) the will of the crew of the ship or rather their belief that they are still on a starship may be all that keeps it intact. Other times the ship is just flat atomized or displaced in time or morphed into something else entirely.

 

However any cases you can present on the principles involved in translation or in the case of a failed geller field are appreciated because this is an area that more difficult to explain for me. After sixty BL books I still can't quite figure out how the ship makes transition or even guides itself by the astronomicon. Or even what system of propulsion they use, though standard drives would work inside the geller field. Oh and one other thing, geller fields arn't foolproof, the influence of the warp can be so strong that at times it can influence things inside the field. How is this explainable?

 

Interesting stuff. Although if a being's will is involved there is some kind of explicable relationship between the warp and demon.

[Prathios]

Actually, if there is one constant with the warp it is that it is always psycho reactive. Even people who are not in the warp cast their feelings, hopes, emotions into the warp. It will always react to this in some form or fashion. Now how it reacts is once again very random. But it can reflect things. If a world has a planet wide battle with millions dying it can churn up the warp like a storm. Of course the warp is even more influenced by the four great powers. They are capable of churning entire sections of the warp up so bad no travel is possible through it. There are lots of angles to consider here.

[Veahirin]

I like the way this thread is going... Here is my two cents.

 

Though the warp is mostly unpredictable, I would argue that there are some immutable laws that govern interactions within it. As you stated, the rule of dominating wills. If it were truly unbound something with a lesser will could lose to something with no will or Khorne could be turned into a potted plant by a Nurgling (Little shop of horrors anyone?).

 

In essence the warp is random, but it does follow a few laws, though its laws are entirely different than the laws in "normal space." The warp remindes me of Games Workshops version of the Chaos Theory. I.e. it is entierly random, except for the fact that in the midst of the randomness there is something that seeks order.

 

-V

[Astalon]

I think i'm largely in agreement with Veahirin.

 

The fact the warp is, in some way, responsive to emotions means it does have an underlying constant nature. Even if that just is to respond to emotions of sentient being, even if not in a uniform manner.

[Solomongrundy]

I agree with Prathios. The irony (and, perhaps, hypocrisy) of the Emperor's argument belies the fact that the Imperial Truth was never anything but another weapon in the Emperor's arsenal against the chaos gods. If I can get you to believe that the person/ideal you are loyal to is wrong or doesn't exist, then that person/ideal loses power as it loses its support. It's PSYOPS.

 

As far as the story itself, I was once again reminded of why Graham McNeill is my least favorite BL author. The characters were terribly written. The Emperor came off as some arrogant teenager who used adolescent logic and historical oversimplification to argue his point whereas the priest simply acted as his stereotypical punching bag. They lacked any real depth just like the story. It could have been done so much better had it been written by almost anyone else.

 

 

Agreed, the emperor for all his wisdom certainly did not take philosophy 101. It was a poor one sided argument.

[Solomongrundy]

little mechanicum spoiler.

 

 

so maybe Jonas Milus was one of these people who were able to do so. I mean we was theoretically able to obtain all the knowledge of the universe through the Akashic Reader. And once again he died shortly after :P

[Solomongrundy]

With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods".

 

What was the purpose of quotes and capitalization here... it doesn't make sense in context. Second, how do the warp gods not fit one of the four definitions of the word god? They are very clearly gods. If you try to say they are just powerful entities who live in the warp it makes you sound like your just calling a dog a canine. Powerful entities who live in the warp, exhibit nigh omnipotence, have eternal life, and represent abstract principles. Yeah that doesn't sound anything like a god at all. (sorry about the sarcasm I did lay it on pretty think :P )

"Chaos Gods" is a proper noun referring to the gods of Chaos. The quotes around "Gods" was to denote the false title.

 

They're just powerful beings supposedly still grounded on 40k's scientific principals. Gods are inherently unbound by laws of science. Effectively the best definition of a god is "an immortal sentient force of unlimited magical* power".

 

*magic - here being a a force totally independent of science

 

 

What makes you think that? I don't think there is anything in the concept of god which means they are unbound by laws of science.

 

Well yeah that and physics doesn't work in the Warp so technically the warp gods are unbound by the laws of science. Hell, there are planets in the warp shaped like, bowls, flowers, and other strange objects. In the eye of terror a bloodthirster can destroy a planet by growing bigger than the planet and hitting it with his axe. Im not making any of this up either this is a real instance from one of the books. I believe it was in a short story collection.

 

Just because the warp exhibits those things doesn't mean they don't conform to the laws of science in the warp. Even a brief look at quantum physics reveals stranger things than the warp, and who says that doesn't conform to the laws of physics?

 

So if something does not conform to the law of science can you still call it science? If you can, than science is God and faith in science is a religion, and you can explain everything away with, "I don't know but I know that Science has the answer." Kinda anathema to what science is suppose to be.

[Astalon]

With all his might and power he is not all powerful and likewise neither are the Chaos "Gods".

 

What was the purpose of quotes and capitalization here... it doesn't make sense in context. Second, how do the warp gods not fit one of the four definitions of the word god? They are very clearly gods. If you try to say they are just powerful entities who live in the warp it makes you sound like your just calling a dog a canine. Powerful entities who live in the warp, exhibit nigh omnipotence, have eternal life, and represent abstract principles. Yeah that doesn't sound anything like a god at all. (sorry about the sarcasm I did lay it on pretty think :D )

"Chaos Gods" is a proper noun referring to the gods of Chaos. The quotes around "Gods" was to denote the false title.

 

They're just powerful beings supposedly still grounded on 40k's scientific principals. Gods are inherently unbound by laws of science. Effectively the best definition of a god is "an immortal sentient force of unlimited magical* power".

 

*magic - here being a a force totally independent of science

 

 

What makes you think that? I don't think there is anything in the concept of god which means they are unbound by laws of science.

 

Well yeah that and physics doesn't work in the Warp so technically the warp gods are unbound by the laws of science. Hell, there are planets in the warp shaped like, bowls, flowers, and other strange objects. In the eye of terror a bloodthirster can destroy a planet by growing bigger than the planet and hitting it with his axe. Im not making any of this up either this is a real instance from one of the books. I believe it was in a short story collection.

 

Just because the warp exhibits those things doesn't mean they don't conform to the laws of science in the warp. Even a brief look at quantum physics reveals stranger things than the warp, and who says that doesn't conform to the laws of physics?

 

So if something does not conform to the law of science can you still call it science? If you can, than science is God and faith in science is a religion, and you can explain everything away with, "I don't know but I know that Science has the answer." Kinda anathema to what science is suppose to be.

 

As i have stated at length in later discussion in this topic science is the description of causal relations in an effort to make a predicition based on them. If something has causal laws there is science to describe it given sufficient capability of understanding, reasoning and experiment.

[Verythrax Draconis]

I think that tale just prove how foolish and 'human' the emperor really is. He's not the 'farseer' everybody says he is, and he is completely jaded by his own power. Based on this is easy to understand how he commited the mistakes that led down to the heresy, imperial cult, and so on.

 

Uriah owned him hard. In fact, the emperor only embarasses himself. Too bad they both didn't knew that the future reserved, otherwise, the emperor wouldn't even bother to start that conversation in first place <_<

 

The characters were terribly written. The Emperor came off as some arrogant teenager who used adolescent logic and historical oversimplification to argue his point whereas the priest simply acted as his stereotypical punching bag. They lacked any real depth just like the story. It could have been done so much better had it been written by almost anyone else.

QFT.

 

Yes, the atheistic arguments of the emperor were so cliche (and easy to refute) that it hurts. A serious atheist that brings that kind of argument to a discussion is asking to be beaten up. And the priest was so naive to not be able to refute those hurts even more.

[Prathios]

I think that tale just prove how foolish and 'human' the emperor really is. He's not the 'farseer' everybody says he is, and he is completely jaded by his own power. Based on this is easy to understand how he commited the mistakes that led down to the heresy, imperial cult, and so on.

 

Uriah owned him hard. In fact, the emperor only embarasses himself. Too bad they both didn't knew that the future reserved, otherwise, the emperor wouldn't even bother to start that conversation in first place :D

 

The characters were terribly written. The Emperor came off as some arrogant teenager who used adolescent logic and historical oversimplification to argue his point whereas the priest simply acted as his stereotypical punching bag. They lacked any real depth just like the story. It could have been done so much better had it been written by almost anyone else.

QFT.

 

Yes, the atheistic arguments of the emperor were so cliche (and easy to refute) that it hurts. A serious atheist that brings that kind of argument to a discussion is asking to be beaten up. And the priest was so naive to not be able to refute those hurts even more.

 

 

Again I'll say, I don't think that the Emperor believe anything he said in the first place. He was simply enforcing his own tactic of Imperial Truth. However I wont argue that the material brought to the table by both parties was astronomically weak. I've debated this topic before myself and the stuff I can come up with off the top of my head sounds more informed and well reasoned than anything the supposed "Lord of Mankind" or the last priest on earth could spout.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Again I'll say, I don't think that the Emperor believe anything he said in the first place. He was simply enforcing his own tactic of Imperial Truth. However I wont argue that the material brought to the table by both parties was astronomically weak. I've debated this topic before myself and the stuff I can come up with off the top of my head sounds more informed and well reasoned than anything the supposed "Lord of Mankind" or the last priest on earth could spout.

 

Well, to do the 30k times any justice:

 

- The priest, due his situation (and the world situation as a whole) is very understandable if he didn't have any higher argument to counter-attack. He was just a simple-minded believer, that happened to be the last. It's not like he was a great religious thinker or anything...

 

- ...and of course, knowing that his rival was there with an army outside, he was not exactly in a comfortable situation to discuss anything.

 

- the emperor arguments, even being that low, could work well on the common folk, where even the details and intricacies of our religions are lost in someway, even if the religions survived that far. But he was at least a bit naive to insist on those if he new more than that, when Uriah showed a knowledge a bit more advanced than that.

 

- And the emperor argument about religion causing wars is the silliest ever used, considering the bloodshed he caused that far. He could say everything for the sake of argument, but that.

 

- And finally yes, Graham could do MUCH better than that. Even if the Dark Age of Technology caused the humanity to be complete oblivious to philosophy and common sense, they both sounds very silly. But well, considering that even on our actual university the level is not much better than that, I can understand how he could be so subpar on writing something that he have no clue about. He could at least use some research and consulting first.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Yes, the atheistic arguments of the emperor were so cliche (and easy to refute) that it hurts. A serious atheist that brings that kind of argument to a discussion is asking to be beaten up. And the priest was so naive to not be able to refute those hurts even more.

 

Agreed. Although I found it interesting that despite the writers (being true to form :D ) having the priest give up and roll over after about ten seconds, they then got him back up again. No clear answer to humanity's problems once again. Good BL - None of this "This is right because we say so and because it fits where we want our story to go". :mellow:

[Brother Captain Kezef]

A colleague ate work is a devout born again, myself I'm a pagan and we had this debate on faith. We came to the conclusion that as a species, Humanity needs something to believe in, we need faith in something, anything in order to feel whole.

 

I loved the last church story, especialy as it comes after scions of the storm. Black library is leaving the realms of fan fiction and definitely charting a course into the perils of literature.

 

You have a Man that TRULY believes that religion is a curse, in fact his faith is in his anti-faith yet for all his power and majesty he can't see the irony or recognise the Human desire for belief. he focuses on all the negatives and forgest one important question.

 

If religion is so bad, why do Humans still create it?

 

It serves to show that the Emperor lost the Horus Heresy in the end. He defeated Horus and saved Humanity from chaos yet created a religion, the very thing he was trying to stop. If he's still alive on the golden throne, the reality fo what his Imperium has become has probably driven him insane.

[Grey Mage]

True. On the other hand, either way, you have a radio. Least this way you know what you'll be getting into.

 

For a being who believes in the ultimate triumph of humanity, the Emperor sure does sell us short.

You two sound like americans debating sex ed. in schools.... if they dont know it cant hurt them... if you tell them theyll be better prepared.... or more likely to do so... *shrugs*

 

Yes, the atheistic arguments of the emperor were so cliche (and easy to refute) that it hurts. A serious atheist that brings that kind of argument to a discussion is asking to be beaten up. And the priest was so naive to not be able to refute those hurts even more.

 

Agreed. Although I found it interesting that despite the writers (being true to form ;) ) having the priest give up and roll over after about ten seconds, they then got him back up again. No clear answer to humanity's problems once again. Good BL - None of this "This is right because we say so and because it fits where we want our story to go". :P

Charisma... the emperors charisma score is 335. He ups it next level too.

[Prathios]

Think about this though. The Emperor's firm denial of godhood combined with humanities desire to have religion sired the only system upon which the human race could survive. Without the Imperial Cult and the central authority this sets up (unquestionably) humanity would be a scattered and broken people. Perhaps the Imperial Truth was designed to wipe out all "other" religions so that when the time came humanity could unite around him. This may make him look egotistical but everything he did was for the sole purpose of saving humanity and even as a corpse he continues to do so. But just think about that, would humanity be able to weather the storm arrayed against it if it did not have such a powerful unifying force as the Imperial Cult? I think not.