My first battle Sister vs. new Guard

[Quasarcq]

We played an 1850 battle.

My 4 rhino BSSs, two jump cannies, 9 seraphim and 3 exos.

 

He had something like Command: master of Ord, Master of Fleet guy.

Two or 3 straight up lasgun platoons with no bells or whistles

A commasar with 4 ogryn

2 storm trooper platoon deep striking

that carbo/rambo dude

2 hell hounds and a basilisk

Thats what I recall

there was a lot on the board and it was difficult to make heads or tales of certain units, just a sea of mans.

 

Despite me killing some 90 models of troops, killing the basilisk and a hellhound there was still enough fire power between a platoon, a few command units the ogryns and the turn 4 storm troops that made a mockery of how much killing I had just done.

 

Looks like I'll be having the same problem as with orks. My sisters really don't like horde armies even though it would seem thats what they are made to take out. I kill lots of stuff, but the is just too much stuff to kill and shoot back at me.

 

Things that went wrong in the game:

My dozer bladed exorcist got immobilized in dangerous terrain... snake eyes

 

I should have known carbro had some high AP ranged attack.... demo=dead seraphim. Had I known I would have put Spirit on them. I asked the player and all I got was that he had a sniper attack. A little deceiving or omission I guess.

 

Also charging both jump cannies into the ogryn + commisar squad was a terrible idea. even with spirit, and HotE, one blessed weapon and a evicserator I dealt a few wounds but that was hardly anything. by the end of the game I had one cannoness locked in combat and maybe would have won in the end but still that was a waste to try something foolish.

 

Even with some of my blatant command blunders my small 10 women squads just could make it through all the saturation fire and forced cover saves from the storm troopers. These guys do very good mopping unit damaged 3+ units. By turn 4 what seemed like victory for me was turning into an epic fail.

 

This may only be my first game vs the new guard, but I don't expect it to get easier much.

[boreas]

That's what I feel too. My most common opponent is a very good 4th ed IG player. His main weakness is that he doesn't strive for the overall game goal (ie objective or kill points) but would rather kill some of my most flashy stuff. He's really into WH40k for the epic/cinematic feel than for the cold tactics.

 

Yet, I find that the word "saturation" best describes the new IG codex. He can basically field enough anti-tank and enough anti-infantry to bypass everything. My first game against his new codex was a tri-landraider/GK list vs an assemblage of new codex units. My list was: GKGM+retinue (3 w/ TH+SS), 10 PAGK, 10 PAGK, 3 landraiders.

 

He had 1 HQ command squad (with Astropath), 1 squad of Stromtroopers with 2 metaguns, 2 platoons (2 PCS and 2 x 20 IG with 1 flamer in each), 2 vet squads with 2 meltas (one in a Valk one in a Vendetta), 1 Devildog, 1 LR exterminator with Pask, 1 Vanquisher and 1 Colossus (St6 Ap3 ordnance).

 

We rolled Annihilation and Dawn of War. It was the most boring game I've ever played! I put nothing on the table, he had 2 guys and the HQ command squad. Basically, the game went like this: I took pot-shots with the GKLRs, he returned fire... I was lucky to stun the vanquisher most of the game while I killed the devil-dog on turn 2. On turn 3 The vendetta outflanked and didn't glance or penetrate with the 1 TL-lascannon shot it could take. I then stunned it. Next turn, it was immobilized and the LRs could move out of it's LOS. The vets inside spent the game trying to catch up with the LRs. On turn 3, the Valkyrie also outflanked near the crusader with the GKTs inside and dropped its vets and one hellfire missile. It scattered while the vets did nothing but destroy the MM on the LRC(ok, I was lucky there!). The GKT got out and assaulted both the vets and the valk. I won, but since I rolled really badly, only by two, so the vets stayed (much to my opponent's dimay!).The Valkyrie was destroyed. On his turn, I finished them and next turn I got back into the LRC. On his last turn (the game ended turn 5), the vanquisher immobilized the GKLRC and the Exterminator ripped a lascannon sponson off a GKLR...

 

The game ended at turn 5 after 80 minutes total, which is very short for a 1750pts game. I had lost: the MM on the GKLRC and it was immobilized and one sponson on a GKLR. He had lost: the Valkyrie, the Vendetta, the Devildog and a squad of veterans. So I won 4 KPs to none... His problem was that I hid my LR as much as possible, so he had to expose his units to my lascannons. Otherwise, there would have been to game to speak of...

 

My second game was with sisters. I can't do as complete a battle report, but suffice to say that I won by a thread. And then, it was because he'd completely forgotten to merge his basic platoons, hence handing me too many KPs. That and he rolled so bad, so very bad! Cheap autocannons make a mockery of rhinos, cheap(ish) lascannons do the same of exorcists. 4 St8-9 AP3 blasts as well as AP3 guns and Ap3 template (hellhound varient) make a mockery of power armour...

 

Phil

[Melissia]

Wait, rethink strategy? Do we really need to?

 

Run/Drive up and set them on fire has worked for me so far... unfrotunately the list does not have too much versatility. We need to get into flamer / rapid fire range, or assault them, because Guard are far more shooty than even the Sisters.

 

 

Is a changing of tactics needed, perhaps? Quite possibly-- changing of strategy? No. In the end, we will ntill need to shoot them, set them on fire, blow up their tanks, and beat them up like schoolyard bullies. And to do any of these we need to get up close. Changing HOW we get into their face and set them on fire is a good thing, but we won't really change our overall strategy much. We don't have access to lots of deep striking, or infiltrating, or long-ranged weaponry other than the heavy bolter and exorcist missile launcher or... well... anything to really adapt our strategies with in a way taht would actually positively effect a Sisters Vs. Guard game.

 

 

Cover saves may become more important perhaps.

[boreas]

I think deep-striking seraphims with inferno pistols might become a must to get to their tanks. The main problem? My opponent will always play a master of the fleet (-1 to my reserves) as it's really too cheap to pass up! I think allying IG gunline (a platoon with lascannons (at least 3 lascannons, up to 6 if possible) will help deal with the AP3 ordnance will we drive up our rhinos(as much as possible while they get shot to pieces). Charging when possible (ie firing the Heavy flamer and meltagun, but not the bolters) worked for me as most of his army was in cover. With some luck, you don't kill enough guards on your turn and break them on their turn...). Triple exorcist doesn't feel cheesy anymore!

 

Phil

[Grand Master Iapetus]

Triple exorcist doesn't feel cheesy anymore!

 

Phil

 

 

Or, from Malleus perspective - 3 (or more) LRs...

 

I felt the same way after the Ork codex came out, and again with the Guard.

 

The only comfort is they are finally giving the good guys some cheese love too...

[Imperator Mos]

I think a HB Retributor squad would be a good place to start, followed swiftly by a Callidus. More Seraphim wouldn't hurt either.

 

We need to make small changes at first, becuase not only are we just learning this new 'dex, the IG players are too. So I guess the best piece of advice is know thy enemy, set down with the new book and find out what makes it work, and where its weak spots are. From waht i can tell, it's the same old IG story, poor Ld, and CC. Hence my reason for the Assassin. Get in there and kill his commanders so he cant use orders or leadership, then go ahead and get in H2H and make him break.

[boreas]

Don't forget the low leadership. In the game I played, the Callidus assassin' neural shredder worked wonders against the massed IG on his side. It managed to kill half the Company Command squad and 3 Rough Rider on the turn it came in. It then tied up the CCS for 2 turns. Also, Divine pronouncement on an Inquisitor-Lord in a chimera can almost assuredly break one infantry unit per turn (bye-bye, lascannon squad!).

 

Phil

[Melissia]

If you're going for deep striking seraphim, I'd reccomend BP+power weapon on the veteran. Need as many power weapon attacks as possible for when the Seraphim assault, and it's cheaper than an eviscerator anyway. One might also consider an inferno pistol instead of the BP, to add to the squad's anti-tank ability.

[Aidoneus]

Deep-striking guns that need to be within 3" to do their job seems like a losing proposition to me.

 

Sitting back and shooting with Retributors seems like a losing proposition to me.

 

More Exorcists, for once, seems like a losing proposition to me.

 

I'd go with maybe 2 Exorcists, 'couple cannonnesses (1-2 jump), possibly a fairly small squad of seraphim, and then as many SoB squads in Rhinos/Repressors as you can take.

 

Flamers are going to be better for you than heavy flamers. Dual flamer units are very nice, as long as you have some melta-toting stuff nearby (this is where those seraphim/canonnesses might come into play).

 

Basically, you need to make it to his lines with as much stuff as you possibly can, get everything out as one and just rip into his lines, and then hopefully charge in next turn. It's a very single-minded way to play, and I personally don't see it being very fun, but frankly it's the only way I see to get the job done.

 

Bottom line is that with more than 12" between you, he wins. With less than 12" between you, you win. Simple as that.

[boreas]

I still hesitate:

 

On one hand: 6 Seraphims, 2 inferno-pistols + VSS w/eviscerator+brazier. More expensive, but good anti-tank(IP) and anti-troop (Brazier) on the turn they come in. Good Anti-tank on subsequent turns. Eviscerator can instakill Heavy-weapons (they are now a single 2-wounds model) and HQs.

 

On the other hand: 6 Seraphims, 2 Hand-flamers + VSS w/bolt pistol and power-weapon, meltabombs for everyone. Less expensive, but no anti-tank(IP) on the turn they come in. Good Anti-tank on subsequent turns. The hand-flamers will burn hordes of guards...

 

Phil

[Melissia]

Or something more like this:

 

7 Seraphims, 2 Inferno Pistols, VSS w/BP+PW

 

One more model (another TLBP shot, +3 attacks on the charge), has inferno pistols for tank hunting, lots of attacks for anti-infantry. Slightly cheaper than the expensive squad, slightly more expensive than the cheaper squad.

[DevianID]

I can say that from my experience playing AS the new IG, land raiders are no longer the kings of the battlefield. Why? Command squads with 4 melta guns can move in a transport, disembark, use the order to become twin linked, and fire 4 point blank twin linked BS4 melta shots into a raider. If the enemy popped smoke, then you can instead force a reroll on the 4+ obscured save. Vets near a command squad can do the same, but with 3 meltas insead of 4. Even if the squad inside wipes the command squad out in the next turn, without the raiders armor and mobility the squad will quickly be cut down with the abundance of small arms.

 

Versus sisters, IG only need to deal with the 3 exorcists to dominate the armored exchange, and with a plethora of infantry to protect the tanks from rhino melta squads, the gap between IG and sisters will only widen. Straken or Creed go a long way to making guard amazing--furious charge plus counter attack or fearless in big combined IG squads with commisars and 5 power weapon sargs are an amazing deterant to enemies that get too close, well that and the 100-150 shots such units can take.

 

Finally, I think the humble griffon batteries or manticore tanks, with the barrage rules for hitting side armor and picking the highest on 2d6 for armor pen, plus the low cost, represent things that the DH and WH have no answer to. If only the orbital barrage was better!

 

Anywho, with all the theoryhammer doom and gloom aside, you actually dont really have to worry about guard all that much. This is because the new guard builds are VERY expensive and painting intensive, and all the best rules are found in expensive new models no one owns yet. Also, guard are weak against a first turn rhino rush, followed by selective assaults by dedicated assaulters, or ninja armies that deploy nothing and stay in reserve for as long as possible (thank you Officer of the Fleet) until they can run on and steal objectives. By the time IG armies are put together and IG players figure out how to play, the antiguard metagame will be in place.

[ripath]

I had a 500 point game against the new guard codex.

My list

BC with incinerator

8x GKPA

7xGKPA

I've won quite a lot with this list so I felt confident that it would work.

His list

Min command squad

2 vets squads

2 wolf's bane hellhounds

Yes his list is legal even after checking his codex.

Two templates and all I had left was 1 gkpa and my bc. I killed nothing that game. :mellow: The worst part is that he didn't even use his fancy new hellguns and vendettas against me.

[DevianID]

Yeah, Banewolf's AP3 wound-on-a-2 template are pretty much the defination of why you want to play a mechanized force in 5th edition... and of course pure grey knights are left in the cold.

[Quasarcq]

It's been a long weekend so I'm just catching up on the posts. One thing I left out about the game was that it was capture/control: 4 objectives (mission 1) and pitched battle. I think in a KP battle I would have won. But wasn't counting KP so I don't know.

 

At least in objective games its gonna be though. At the start of the game I had no trouble closing the distance. There were a lot of regular troop squads running up the board at me, mostly being meat shields. All 4 of my Sisters squads killed 4 10-20 man squads the turn they disembarked. It was beautiful. What got me was the second wave of remainder infantry sitting on an objective near his table edge, those deep striking storm troopers with DS re-roll, and the ogryn squad. The hellhounds were a pain too since my exo with LOS did little more than shake em or get one weapon destroy result. I didn't really have a chance to get any squads back in rhinos.

 

I believe after learning the guard's new tricks things may work out better. At least that's what I'm hoping.

[Toogeloo]

There are certain things that you MUST do when playing against horde armies with Sisters.

 

First off, you need as much terrain as you can muster to force your opponent Line of Sight issues and difficult terrain tests.

Secondly, you need to take a flank or both flanks. Do not attempt to go down the middle because you are just asking to be swarmed.

Thirdly, you need to stay together. There is safety in numbers when it comes to Sisters.

Finally, stay in your Rhinos until you know you can safely hop out with out taking a beating the following opponent turn. (this is most important).

 

When playing against Nids or Orcs, it is usually better to play defensive, but when you play against Guard, you must be aggressive and rush the hell out of him.

 

 

Remember that you can drive your rhinos 6 inches and still fire 2 models out the top hatch. A heavy flamer and regular flamer will melt guardsmen where they stand, and you will keep yourself somewhat protected in the Rhino (as opposed to being triple tapped into oblivion by survivors on the next shooting phase). Meltaguns can be fired out of top hatches to take care of Hellhound and Leman variants. This tactic isn't 100% safe, but it's better than being triple tapped to death or taking a Ordnance Blast from Lemans, Basilisks, and Masters of Ordnance and losing all your girls.

 

Against Guard, with Seraphim, use Hit and Run to your advantage. First off, stay in cover for as long as you can. One trick is if you line yourself up to do as small of an assualt as possible (you want to make it so that only 1 of your Seraphim girls can actually assault and only a couple get their licks in), this is so you don't force your opponent to fall back. This keeps your girls safe from return fire on the next shooting phase, and on the next assault phase, you either mop up your opponent, or Hit and Run up to 18" away and get within range of tanks or more important squads (eg. Command).

 

Don't waste your Exorcist Shots on Leman Russes, you will probably just beat your head against the wall. Target Sentinels, Hellhounds, Basilisks, Chimera, and Valkeries... these targets are softer and will be just as beneficially removed as a Leman is. Make sure your Exo's are always in or behind cover, and if you must move them, make sure that a potential Immobilize doesn't remove their ability to shoot targets in the shooting phase. Leman Russes should be taken out with Inferno Pistols, Meltaguns, and Evicerators for their double punch power.

 

 

If you are feeling gutsy for a Deep Strike, I would do it with a single Canoness model with Inferno Pistol. The smaller footprint is less likely to hurt you in drift. Seraphim should never deep strike, it takes away too much of their effectiveness.

[Corpse.]

I fiddled with a bit of something.

 

2 Guardsmen vs 1 sister, no big challenge.

 

300 guardsmen vs 100 sisters, well you will need 50 more to compete.

 

120 sisters can fit inside 1500 point game easily. Problem is that your pewter, he's plastic. Harder to obtain. If he plays horde, you can beat him at it. You can amass heavy bolters with ease, his HB's arent as good against you.

 

Sisters point for point are superior to most models when melee isnt an issue. If you use transports to narrow line of sight of his units say 3 transports in a line, your sisters on one side, he will have issues trying to bear down on you with his entire force.

 

Transports are the key, make his numbers a weakness. It always works, unless he blows them up and they become craters, then you need another to replace its spot.

 

Just keep trying. 10 bolterbabes can kill 50 guardsmen if used in the right situation. Its up to you to get them in that situation. (2 shots a turn, rapid fire from turn 2 to turn 5 = 50 shots, topping leadership you will make some of them run, by turn 6 roughly 40 dead and 10 running)

 

I havent seen a SoB player lose against the new guard yet, except for one player. And he always brings 400 models to the table every game.... Lots of power weapons and melee guardsmen~.

[WAR]

As a foot slogger sister player i fear the stormtroopers but even that can be avoided (AoF) I now I will be out nubered by 30 models at 1750 but tactics and flamers will win out. Come on we have power armour and a bolter for 11 points and a stormtrooper is 16 points.

[boreas]

As a foot slogger sister player i fear the stormtroopers but even that can be avoided (AoF) I now I will be out nubered by 30 models at 1750 but tactics and flamers will win out. Come on we have power armour and a bolter for 11 points and a stormtrooper is 16 points.

 

I really don't fear stormtroopers... Actually, playing stormtroopers against Sisters is a bad choice. I fear the combination of cheap Autocannons and AP3 blasts. At 1750pts, a good Guard opponent will have quite a few of those. Combine that with orders, and your rhinos (if you go the mech way) or bid squads (if you go the footslogging way) will fall pretty quickly. Add a few lascannons to the mix and your exorcists are vulnerable...

 

I think my next go at them will include: Deepstriking Canoness/Seraphims. This way, they don't have to spend as much faith getting to the enemy line. Heavy bolter retributors. In cover, they are not so fragile anymore and can clean out lots of infantry. Repressors as they combine the heavy flamer of the immolator (although not that sweet move 12" and shoot!) and the capacity to fire from the top hatch. Inquisitor w/ Divine Pronouncement. Callidus assassin.

 

Phil

[Warp Angel]

Is a changing of tactics needed, perhaps? Quite possibly-- changing of strategy? No. In the end, we will ntill need to shoot them, set them on fire, blow up their tanks, and beat them up like schoolyard bullies. And to do any of these we need to get up close. Changing HOW we get into their face and set them on fire is a good thing, but we won't really change our overall strategy much. We don't have access to lots of deep striking, or infiltrating, or long-ranged weaponry other than the heavy bolter and exorcist missile launcher or... well... anything to really adapt our strategies with in a way taht would actually positively effect a Sisters Vs. Guard game.

 

You're funny, but right, Melissa.

 

I put together a tactica on fighting guard and understanding their new limitations over in Tactica Astartes. It's a unit by unit/force org assessment that needs to be applied based on what your opponent has chosen to field.

 

Krak grenades are your friends against vehicle squadrons. Multiple melta shots work wonders too. Guard are the only army where you can regularly count on killing/damaging more than one vehicle with one unit's shooting.

 

A squad of 10 sisters with krak grenades will reliably wreck or significantly degrade 450 points of Leman Russ squadron or 350 points of artillery squadron before they shoot.

 

READ the squadron rules. They are often as much or more of a liability than they are a benefit. An assault or shooting against one vehicle is spread out against the whole squadron BEFORE damage results are rolled. Vehicles in a squadron do not provide each other cover. They have to all shoot at the same target. Immobilized results kill all but the last vehicle in a squadron.

 

Mechanization and/or speed is a big deal. You need to get your units into rapid fire/flamer range intact and quickly.

 

Command squads need to die as quickly as possible.

[boreas]

READ the squadron rules. They are often as much or more of a liability than they are a benefit. An assault or shooting against one vehicle is spread out against the whole squadron BEFORE damage results are rolled. Vehicles in a squadron do not provide each other cover. They have to all shoot at the same target. Immobilized results kill all but the last vehicle in a squadron.

 

That is very true! good commanders will try to avoid "squadding" their tanks. If not, try to target these first! Hitting a vehicle squad with multiple meltas can result in mass destruction. That's why I now specialize my basic squads. I used to use: 9 sisters (meltagun, Heavy flamer)+ VSS (book, eviscerator)+rhino) as multi-use squads. I'll try combining: 9 sisters (heavy flamer)+VSS (book, bolt pistol+power weapon)+Rhino and 9 Sisters(2 meltaguns)+VSS (book,Eviscerator)+Rhino. The first squad will go after infantry-intensive areas whereas the second one will go tank hunting. By thus cutting the average squad cost, I might be able to squeeze an extra squad in 1750 pts.

 

Phil

[Warp Angel]

READ the squadron rules. They are often as much or more of a liability than they are a benefit. An assault or shooting against one vehicle is spread out against the whole squadron BEFORE damage results are rolled. Vehicles in a squadron do not provide each other cover. They have to all shoot at the same target. Immobilized results kill all but the last vehicle in a squadron.

 

That is very true! good commanders will try to avoid "squadding" their tanks. If not, try to target these first! Hitting a vehicle squad with multiple meltas can result in mass destruction. That's why I now specialize my basic squads. I used to use: 9 sisters (meltagun, Heavy flamer)+ VSS (book, eviscerator)+rhino) as multi-use squads. I'll try combining: 9 sisters (heavy flamer)+VSS (book, bolt pistol+power weapon)+Rhino and 9 Sisters(2 meltaguns)+VSS (book,Eviscerator)+Rhino. The first squad will go after infantry-intensive areas whereas the second one will go tank hunting. By thus cutting the average squad cost, I might be able to squeeze an extra squad in 1750 pts.

 

Phil

 

If the guard does spread his vehicles out, he runs into the issue of Force Org limitations. It's a funky balance and a hard generalling choice.

[Melissia]

Even still, keep in mind that tanks are more expensive for the Guard now, and so they may very well opt NOT to go tank heavy. A couple tanks, an arty squadron, and then infantry (perhaps mechanized!) may be more popular depending on your location.

[boreas]

My most common opponent will usually go for an artillery squadron (indirect firing, so he can keep them hidden), 2 russes, 1-2 flyers (valks with 3-melta veterans) and 1-2 hellhound varient. Then at least 4 Heavy weapons squad (2x3 lascannons and 2x3 autocannons). Command squads with Master of the fleet(this one, for 30pts, is too good to pass up) and astropath (if he's got reserves). Finally, a few squads in chimeras, possibly outflanking with Al-Rahem.

 

All in all, a varied and balanced list without any maxing. Yet, it has lots of Anti-tank (lascannons, meltaguns), anti-transport (autocannon and multilaser), anti-troop (hellhounds, chemdogs, AP3 ordnance). No gimmicks, no using special rules (ie paying sponsons to use the lumbering rule), maybe a special character or two. With most of those getting cheaper (autocannon, average guard) or more effective (hellhound varients, Orders giving +1 to penetrate ou twin-linking stuff), it's definitely hard for us, even with our very cost-effective troops.

 

The best thing, as Melissia pointed out is still to rush, melt, flame. Only thing different, I'd say, is that I'll assault a lot more. Specialize your squads, cut down on "bling" (tooled inquisitors, DCA). Use faith "defensively" (Spirit of the Martyr more than Divine Guidance!). Try to overwhelm him with multiple transports (ie 2x canoness w/celestians in rhinos, 4x Sisters in rhinos, 2x dominions in immolators). Don't be afraid to convince your opponent to let you use the new point costs in the FW Imperial Armour vol. 2 update as 15pts less per rhino can add up pretty quickly!

 

Phil

[Eltnot]

The best thing, as Melissia pointed out is still to rush, melt, flame. Only thing different, I'd say, is that I'll assault a lot more. Specialize your squads, cut down on "bling" (tooled inquisitors, DCA). Use faith "defensively" (Spirit of the Martyr more than Divine Guidance!). Try to overwhelm him with multiple transports (ie 2x canoness w/celestians in rhinos, 4x Sisters in rhinos, 2x dominions in immolators). Don't be afraid to convince your opponent to let you use the new point costs in the FW Imperial Armour vol. 2 update as 15pts less per rhino can add up pretty quickly!

 

Phil

Agreed here with the several people that have mentioned this.

 

Normally when I rush, I tend to find that not all of my vehicles will get up there at the same time. So what I do is run small squads of Celestians with meltaguns in Immolators into the enemy lines first. Their task is to get out and blow up transports, or if my squads arrive at the same time, they get out of the stationary Immolator and assault a unit after another squad has shot it. The purpose of this is to tie up units and prevent them from assaulting the more vulnerable BSS. The combat can also often be used as cover.

 

Adding Repressors will also go a long way towards assisting versus IG. The ability to flame guardsmen after dropping off their cargo, greatly increases the threat that the vehicles will cause as well as further kills. Of particular use, will be using them to push through towards heavy weapon teams, located towards the rear.