Valdenaar Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Now I'm a hardcore reader and I have read every HH book cyrrently released and for a long while a question has been on my mind: Where are the Librarians? I mean we know the Thousands Sons have got them and maybe the Dark Angels accroding to Descent of Angels but where are the rest of them. IF the Council of Nikaea banned Space Marine Librarians alltogether and not just the use of sorcery as some sources say then how come one of the bits of fluff says the World Eaters began their devotion to Khorne by killing all of theirs. Angron couldn't stand psykers to begin with, so if his Legion was one of the few allowed to have them the question is quite simply why? Of course I know that 40K fluff has a tendancy to contradict itself but all the same it is stange. Another thought: If the Legions all had Librarians before the Council of Nikaea and the Emperor banned them then what the hell did they do with them? You can't exactly return an Astartes psyker to the ranks can you? Your thoughts guys? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaemonPrinceDargor Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Another thought: If the Legions all had Librarians before the Council of Nikaea and the Emperor banned them then what the hell did they do with them? You can't exactly return an Astartes psyker to the ranks can you? Apparently you can.The Council of Nikaea bans the use of 'Sorcery'. All Librarians are absorbed back into the ranks and ordered not to use their psychic gifts, as are the Primarchs. Magnus is given a severe warning to cease his research by the Emperor. The World Eaters bit of background could still be valid - after all, the marines would know which of their number had been Librarians before they were banned from using their powers. Or, of course, the World Eaters could have ignored the ruling of the council - they were already ignoring the Emperor's ban on use of neural implants on their marines. The full quote in False Gods states that all Legions had Librarian Departments before Nicaea, but were then banned from having them. Source, http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crus...hp?showtopic=53 Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1975941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The Council of Nikaea bans the use of 'Sorcery'. All Librarians are absorbed back into the ranks and ordered not to use their psychic gifts, as are the Primarchs. Magnus is given a severe warning to cease his research by the Emperor. At the moment, that's not true. Index Astartes: Siege of the Emperor's Palace (the current account of the Siege of Terra, since the HH series hasn't got that far yet) tell us that the Imperial Fist and Blood Angels Librarians were present at the Siege, and they were the ones who prevented the Inner Palace from being breached by the sorceries of the Thousand Sons (the heavy siege equipment used to breach the outer wall couldn't be brought up through the rubble) by nullifying them. Unless they seriously change the plot of the Siege of Terra when the HH series gets to it, the Council of Nikaea logically can't have banned Librarians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1975977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The Council of Nikaea bans the use of 'Sorcery'. All Librarians are absorbed back into the ranks and ordered not to use their psychic gifts, as are the Primarchs. Magnus is given a severe warning to cease his research by the Emperor. At the moment, that's not true. Index Astartes: Siege of the Emperor's Palace (the current account of the Siege of Terra, since the HH series hasn't got that far yet) tell us that the Imperial Fist and Blood Angels Librarians were present at the Siege, and they were the ones who prevented the Inner Palace from being breached by the sorceries of the Thousand Sons (the heavy siege equipment used to breach the outer wall couldn't be brought up through the rubble) by nullifying them. Unless they seriously change the plot of the Siege of Terra when the HH series gets to it, the Council of Nikaea logically can't have banned Librarians. there is a difference between psychic powers and sorcery. psychic powers are an innate talent, that can become more powerful with careful practice. sorcery can be learned, and includes bargains with greater powered beings for abilities. so while the Council may have banned sorcery, i dont see it as possible to ban librarians. mind you, this is an personal opinion, and am waiting for the siege and tidbits about the COuncil to be revealed to either grow or crush this. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1975990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Well as i understand things, those with psychic powers had something done to them to prevent them from using their abilities. Garro and Loken come to mind... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1976235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Lord Lorne Walkier Posted Today, 09:52 AM Well as i understand things, those with psychic powers had something done to them to prevent them from using their abilities. Garro and Loken come to mind... Oh for God's sake, take the Garro-and-Loken discussion back to it's own thread. :) Besides, Loken and Garro were not previously Librarians. Whatever speculation about them is being bandied about, they do not fit this category. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1976285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Coucil of Nikea banned the Librarians and nearly of the Legions didn't use them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1976868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyp100 Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Russ, Angron and Mort HATED psykers. They had psykers after the 1k were using them awesomely, but Russ and Mort complained, so the Emperor banned them, or so I remember. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1976909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Librarians are not sorcerors. The Council of Nikaea, according to IA: Librarians, banned sorcery. Librarians are the compromise position. Also, the World Eaters used to have Librarians. They either kill them all for Khorne or the Librarians are the one who tally the skulls taken for Khorne. Depending on what you read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1976947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaemonPrinceDargor Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Sure the IA says so,but the Horus Heresy novels that came after it retconned the old fluff to the Emperor banning all Librarian divisions in the Legions.As i said earlier,the full quote in False Gods states that all Legions had Librarian Departments before Nicaea, but were then banned from having them.The librarians were replaced by Chaplains. Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1976997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 DaemonPrinceDargor Posted Today, 11:14 PM Sure the IA says so,but the Horus Heresy novels that came after it retconned the old fluff to the Emperor banning all Librarian divisions in the Legions.As i said earlier,the full quote in False Gods states that all Legions had Librarian Departments before Nicaea, but were then banned from having them.The librarians were replaced by Chaplains. Certainly, which is why I'll be interested to see where they take this now that they've created this gaping hole in the continuity. EDIT - Not that GW doesn't do that all the time or anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1977005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdenaar Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 I can understand a few Legions breaking the rule but I don't think Angron would have psykers in his Legion just to spite the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1977017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I can. Angron hated the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1978168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 The point being, an awful lot went on that the Emperor had either no control over or else was unaware of. Angron fitting his troops with neural implants, Magnus' continued dabbling with sorcery - even the fact that Horus could turn 7 legions and their Primarchs to his cause and almost completely escape notice while doing so is proof of this. I can quite easily believe that many of the legions employed them, especially those of the more estranged Primarch's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1978375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caducus morbidus Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Actually IIRC the Death Guard were before Heresy gathering librarians. Remember Typhon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1978901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 So the Horus Heresy novels claim that the Librarians were absorbed back into the ranks of the Space Marines. Despite the fact that that makes no sense in universe or out. The series often violently contradicts what we know about the entire 40K universe. Add in the lousy plots, and I'm thinking I'll stick with the interpretation that actually, y'know...makes any sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1979302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 So the Horus Heresy novels claim that the Librarians were absorbed back into the ranks of the Space Marines. Despite the fact that that makes no sense in universe or out. The series often violently contradicts what we know about the entire 40K universe. At least it fills the gap between the Council of Nikaea banning Librarians, and them still being around to stop the Thousand Sons Sorcerers from breaching the Inner Palace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1979304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaemonPrinceDargor Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 If i recall correctly,in Flight of the Eisenstein the Death Guards are discussing the presence of the Sisters of Silence on their ship and saying something along the lines of "The is no psyker taint here,what are they looking for" etc.That to me means that DG definitely had no librarians as well as the fact that Mortarion was one of the main accusers of Magnus in the council of Nikaea. Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1979310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 At least it fills the gap between the Council of Nikaea banning Librarians, and them still being around to stop the Thousand Sons Sorcerers from breaching the Inner Palace. Et tu, Tyrak? IA: Librarians makes it quite clear that Librarians aren't banned at Nikaea. Sorcery is banned. Huge difference. Librarians are actually endorsed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1979414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 IA: Librarians makes it quite clear that Librarians aren't banned at Nikaea. Sorcery is banned. Huge difference. Librarians are actually endorsed That's what I previously thought, but apparently it's been retconned to banning Librarians too, which is what created this gaping hole in the continuity in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1979846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 At a rough Guess i'd say inititially the Emperor banned just Librarians but had plans of bringing them back he knew that psykers could be dangerous but also knew how important they were. So when the HH erupted desperate times called for desperate measures and so the Librarians were probably allowed back to doing what they could. And so afterwards all it took was for Primarchs to allow them to continue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1979926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 I think its just a case of an author not knowing the difference between a librarian and a sorceror... and just figuring it was traitor/loyalist words for the same thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1982119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Well, the big problem is is that this "Librarians banned outright" thing comes from the Collected Visions, which was written by Merret. This, coupled with the Imperial Webway crud, points (to me at least) to some unravelling sanity on his part. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1982235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Well unfortunately this person of unravelled sanity is the figurehead behind the entire HH series project, so there you go! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-1983148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdenaar Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 Hah now even the HH series is contradicting itself massively. Fallen Angels (still reading it at the mo) states that the Dark Angels have a Librarian division. AFTER the start of the heresy which naturally happened AFTER the Council of Nikaea, according to the HH series, banned the use of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/#findComment-2038511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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