Raven Angel Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Well it is certain that we don't have all the info. I would think that at least all Librarians would be seen as needing additional training inorder to insure that they would know the difference between their power and sorcery. If one ignorse the religous overtoons of the IA and looks at the apperant aftermath of the edicts (yes there where more than one) of Nikaea and the role Chaplains are supose to play in this maybe there was a reeducation program in place. Remeber the Emperor is a Psyker too and to outlaw them would be to outlaw himself. I think he may have had his moments of nievate but I don't think he was that stupid as to indanger his own position as the ruler of mankind from a legal standpoint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2038541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Remember though that Chaplains were added to make sure Librarians didn't use their powers. Not use sorcery, but their standard powers. Collected Visions did indeed outlaw psychic powers at Nikaea, not just Sorcery. As I've said elsewhere though, seeing as the Collected Visions states that the Emperor believes the biggest threat to Humanity is untrained psykers, this idea really, really makes no sense whatsoever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2038687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Guys, guys. There is a difference in use, and having. Just by having something in your army doesn't mean that you actively have to use them in battle. TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2038833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 All I'm saying is that from a tactical and stratigic point of veiw that outlawing the use of all psykic powers is an untenuable position for the Emperor as he knows more than most what situations would actually requier there use. Also when one considers how the high lords never revers any of the Emperors decrees after his accent then if he had outlawed psykers why do we have them now in imperial armies? The land raider edict still stands. Why change this one? I think this is just a case of they screwed up and pride won't let them go back and fix it. IA setup makes the most since and keeps everything in contiuity. If you place it in the time frame Nikaea had to happen after Ulinor but well before Davin As magnus was on Ulinor and Nikaea is the last time he and the Emperor stood face to face. The Librarians would need additional training to ward themselves against sorcery and many of them might have been reticent to use there powers wondering if any of them were sorcerus powers? The Chaplains would be making sure they didn't backslide making them rare if present at all in the armies running up to the HH. Which makes since as the Librarians would have noticed something like the warp taint of Erebus and others like him. By pushing them too the side instead of removing them completly we see how Chaos has manipulated the situation again but also why they return so soon after things go to crap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2039214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Also when one considers how the high lords never revers any of the Emperors decrees after his accent then if he had outlawed psykers why do we have them now in imperial armies? The land raider edict still stands. Why change this one? I think this is just a case of they screwed up and pride won't let them go back and fix it. IA setup makes the most since and keeps everything in contiuity. With the only current account of the Siege of Terra (Index Astartes: Siege of the Emperor's Palace), Librarians are present in both the Blood Angels and Imperial Fist Legions. They counter the Thousand Sons Sorcerers attempting to breach the Inner Palace. It will be interesting to see how the HH series deals with this, since they've either got to change the Siege of Terra, or bring Librarians back at some point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2039300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 With the only current account of the Siege of Terra (Index Astartes: Siege of the Emperor's Palace), Librarians are present in both the Blood Angels and Imperial Fist Legions. They counter the Thousand Sons Sorcerers attempting to breach the Inner Palace. It will be interesting to see how the HH series deals with this, since they've either got to change the Siege of Terra, or bring Librarians back at some point. Presumably they'll do it the same way they did in the 4th Horus Heresy artbook three years ago: expand the story of Sanguinius and the Bloodthirster from a single line to a whole page and just drop the thousand son/librarian paragraph altogether. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2039340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Presumably they'll do it the same way they did in the 4th Horus Heresy artbook three years ago: expand the story of Sanguinius and the Bloodthirster from a single line to a whole page and just drop the thousand son/librarian paragraph altogether. Maybe. If they do, I wonder what they'll get to breach the Inner Palace. They might retcon the bit that the gaps in the Outer Wall were too small/rough to bring the siege engines through. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2039425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fol_Muroj Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Hey, they don't need to close anymore, right? With those lovely siege guns that were gifted to Perturabo by [deleted], can't they engage the palace from BVR? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2039433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 BVR? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2039613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Fol_Muroj Posted Today, 12:58 AM Hey, they don't need to close anymore, right? With those lovely siege guns that were gifted to Perturabo by [deleted], can't they engage the palace from BVR? The Palace takes up quite a bit of Asia, I suspect Dorn wouldn't have made such an elementary mistake as allowing the Inner Palace to be in range of bombardment from outside the outer walls. If you had that much space to play with, would you do that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2039631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I wouldn't and tactically I judge myself to be a bit more reckless then the fluff discribes Dorn as being. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2039974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fol_Muroj Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Well, I figure that first would come the Orbital Bombardment, so as to destroy the SSM (surface to space) defenses. After that, Astartes, Titans, and traitor Imperial Army forces could land. Beachhead is secured, they fight their way into the Outer Palace meter by meter. As a matter of course, the Outer and Inner Palace's long range firepower would be destroyed. Only then would the siege guns land, to begin shelling the Inner Palace into submission. (This assumes that the Outer Palace had fallen, of course.) So, said bombardment would be from within the bounds of the Palace. My other assumption is that the Inner Palace's long-range heavy firepower had fallen during the fight, as said firepower would be detrimental to supply lines and reinforcements of the besieging traitors. For all we know, there were fierce fights within the Inner Palace itself, as Custodes and Loyalist Astartes battled it out with Alpha Legionnaires, Night Lords, and other infiltrating Traitors. Just my two cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2040236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 one thing i always wondered is how much control did horus really have over the skies of terra? the fluff states that Horus swept the defenders clear, but what of the Phalanax, and the fleets of the Imperial Fists, Blood ANgels and White Scars?? i really doubt they would allow themselves to be "swept clear" with their primarchs and emperor below...they would be wiped out first. so what gives? WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2040348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Well the 3rd invation of Armmagedon proves that you can land massive amounts of troops within contested airspace if you know what you are about. Having lots of Termis and teleproters doesn't hurt either. besides theirs always the Steel Rain spear tip tactic of which Horus was the undisputed master. Placing large bodies of troops on the ground through anothers orbital defences is what the Legions where best at here. The had never fought a defencive war before now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2040370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 see, that makes sense. i would debate just how much tactical skill it takes to land giant ork roks, but the point pf Horus's skill overrides the silly comment. but reading the fluff about the siege made it seem like Horus controlled the skies, and had no qualms with loyalist fleets flying out and about...which always bothered me. oh well, me being crazy. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2040374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 It is likly that Horuses fleet was so powerful that the loyalist fleet had to use hit and run tacktics inorder to survive. while I'm sure some commanders would have liked to go down fighting to the last. They had a responsibility to get their Primarchs and the Emperor off world should the decision to withdraw be made and that would mean preserving the fleets to fight another day and avoiding a direct confrontation with the trators at least in the begining. A star system is a big place and you can hid alot of ships in one if you are willing to take a few risks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167633-legion-librarians/page/2/#findComment-2040860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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