Razorback turrets, Tac squad Sgt.'s, and Telion's scouts

[Terminus]

Hi guys, I'm old to the hobby, new to the edition (played increasingly less with each edition from 2nd to 4th, periodically giving it up for long stretches of time), and I was hoping you guys could give me some advice.

 

1.) Okay, so I love the razorback. 40 points for a transport with a twin-linked heavy bolter is one of the best buys in the game it seems. But what about the other weapon options? The old-school lascannon/TLPG in particular intrigues me. You get a lascannon and a secondary S7 hit against armor, or if you roll up on a unit, you have three AP2 shots that probably wound on 2+.

 

But the problem with the upgraded turrets is that they almost double the cost of the tank! Given the fragility of a 11/11/10 frame, is it worth spending the extra points? And what turrets have you guys found to be useful?

 

Also, how do people feel about giving it a storm bolter? It adds a little bit more anti-infantry fire (tac squads need all the help they can get), or at the very least have another weapon to destroy to keep it around longer. Too much at 10 points?

 

 

 

2.) The tac squad Sgt. Okay, so I get that he should almost always get a power fist. I've only played three 5th edition games so far, but I've been using two combat squads (from two different squads), each with PF and flamer, in TLHB razorbacks to clear enemy troops from objectives and it's been working pretty well. They rock the kasbah against eldar and IG, but against an armor heavy chaos player they fell a bit flat.

 

So I'm considering giving the sgt.'s combi-meltas. But is it worth it? 10 points for a single shot is relatively pricey, especially considering the fragility of a 5-man squad.

 

Another option is bringing a plasma-gun and either a combi-plasma or plasma pistol on the Sgt. Only issue about this is then the cost is too high to combat squad, and I'd have to keep them together. Combi-plasma, plasma-gun and plasma cannon does sound like a fun unit, though. Add a LC/PG razorback all behind some cover, and just use them as a fire base. I wouldn't be able to use the transport until they lost at least 4 guys, but I guess they could always run alongside to get into position, using it as mobile cover for the first turn or two. Does anyone have experience with the Triple-Plasma squad?

 

 

 

3.) Last question involves Telion. Every list I see him in on these boards does not buy camo-cloaks for the scouts. Why not? Allocating wounds to Telion's 3+ cover save is risky, since he only has 1 wound. And given his awesomeness (take that meltagun! stay away from my land raider!), and thus high target priority, more survivable ablative wounds is always good. Or is dropping the cloaks just a cost saving measure?

 

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Jackelope King]

1. It all depends what you want to do with your Razorbacks. If you're using them to swoop up-field with a squad of Tactical Marines who are supposed to get up close and personal and clear objectives, the value of the twin-linked heavy bolter is just fantastic. Even against power armor, you just slug out a few more wounds on a 3+ and force more saves. I use 'em a little differently: as support for Sternguard acting as Devastator-lite squads (with 2x Plasma Cannons), so I'm willing to slap a Twin-Linked Lascannon turret on them. Generally, I'll roll them to a firing position for the Sternguard and try to get the benefits of being hull-down while keeping the turret exposed for clear shooting. I take the lascannons just because mech is so darn good in 5th that I need more ability to pick off lightly-armored transports without a big investment. And at 75 points, it really is a pretty cheap way to threaten enemy transports.

 

2. Even against Chaos, I'd stick with Flamers. Really, the only other weapon I'd consider for a tactical squad's assault weapon is a melta for helping to open up enemy vehicles. The trick with flamers is once again quantity of wounds, not the quality. And we marine players (chaos and loyalist) are notoriously poor at spreading our units out as much as possible. The flamer is fantastic just because it gets so many potential hits and wounds, even against marines who will save 2/3 of them. Of course, I probably also wouldn't use a combat squad of marines to clear other power-armored foes off of objectives. I prefer softening them up from range, then either having a bike squad roll up and rapid-fire them into oblivion or dropping off a Rhino full of Tactical marines to do the deed.

 

3. There's some debate on this. Some players read Telion and the big red book as granting the whole squad stealth. Others read it as you do: that only Telion gets the benefits of stealth while the rest of his unit don't. I don't think there's any good answer on it as of yet, but hopefully someone can correct me.

[Terminus]

1. True enough, 75 points for a transport popper isn't bad at all.

 

2. Agreed, I love the flamer, all the more since it's "free". As for drive-by tac marines, my only issue with running the 10-man squads as a whole is that you rarely get to use the heavy weapon (in my admittedly limited experience had my squads almost moving to get close enough to rapid fire/flame or assault). That and you have to take a rhino (or a landraider :P). ;)

 

3. What are they basing this on? The book states that characters do not give their special rules to the squads they join, and in fact, occasionally lose them.

[Ryjak]

Having used Razorbacks for years, I'd say the weapon upgrades are overpriced... Dreads get pretty much the same exact weapon options, but pay about 20 points less. In general, you're probably better off using those ~30 points somewhere else.

 

40 Points for a HB platform is a bargain, though. If only they'd let you take two razorbacks for a full 10-man Tactical Squad... I want all my Marines to have a ride.

[Martellus]

3. What are they basing this on? The book states that characters do not give their special rules to the squads they join, and in fact, occasionally lose them.

 

+++This refers to independent characters; Telion is an upgrade character (BRB, p.47). I would apply his Steath USR to the entire unit since he isn't equipped with a camo cloak. The Stealth USR is a unit-specific effect (BRB, pg. 76) while the camo cloak is a model specific effect (C:SM, pg. 100).

 

Martellus++

[greatcrusade08]

Without turning this into a debate on Telions ability, i find it better to assume he doesnt confer his ability to his squad, i even contacted GW's john spencer from the "ask your question" email. and he said his ability does not confer, and you have to buy him a cloak along wiht the rest of the unit.

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

I am toying with the idea of las/plas razorbacks - you get the same firepower from them as you did from the old 6 man las/plas tactical squad... basically you can double your output from a plasmagun lascannon squad.. not too bad..

 

Just curios though - the new weapons classification rules state that only one weapon over str 4 can fire if the vehicle moves.. is the weapon considered one complete weapon? or two seperate ones.. its not co-axial - and it reads as if it were two seperate weapon systems...

[Resv]

As it comes down to Telion's ability I read it as he is stealth only, even after being added to a scout unit. You can't buy him a cammo cloak because there is no option too. If we could go around buying any gear we want I would be running a wicked Honor Guard Squad on Bikes.

[ShinyRhino]

I am toying with the idea of las/plas razorbacks - you get the same firepower from them as you did from the old 6 man las/plas tactical squad... basically you can double your output from a plasmagun lascannon squad.. not too bad..

 

Just curios though - the new weapons classification rules state that only one weapon over str 4 can fire if the vehicle moves.. is the weapon considered one complete weapon? or two seperate ones.. its not co-axial - and it reads as if it were two seperate weapon systems...

 

This is covered in a roundabout way in the FAQ. A weapon destroyed result on the las/plas Razor only kills one of the weapons, either the las or the plas, but not both at once. So, I would count them as two weapon systems for firing.

[Terminus]

Ack, in that case, never mind on the combo turret. I thought both could be fired on the move.

[ShinyRhino]

Ack, in that case, never mind on the combo turret. I thought both could be fired on the move.

 

As did I. Then the FAQ came out and smashed my dreams!

The las/plas Razor is a nice booster for a Devastator squad, or a squad of Sternguard. You just have to park it in cover to make sure it won't die to the first lascannon shot that comes its way.

[Terminus]

Well, at least as far as the Telion question is concerned, the new White Dwarf pretty much settled that one for me. The Telion scout squad used in the battle report had camo cloaks, so I'll be playing it as Telion not giving them Stealth.

[ShinyRhino]

Telion is such a wonderful upgrade to a scout sniper squad. People seriously FEAR him. I had his 5-man squad soak three full turns of fire from Ork Lootas and Kans, just to keep him from sniping out Nobz in the mobz of boyz across the table. The best part is that he wasn't even in RANGE of those targets, and he still drew all the heavy fire away from my tacticals and assault Marines.

His only downfall is thathe wounds on a 4+, just like his sniper rifle students. Not reliable enough to consistently poke the eyes out of squads by dropping the special and heavy weapons, or the squad leaders.

[greatcrusade08]

His only downfall is thathe wounds on a 4+, just like his sniper rifle students. Not reliable enough to consistently poke the eyes out of squads by dropping the special and heavy weapons, or the squad leaders.

Actually despite being a sniping and rending weapon, the stalker boltgun is S4, so unlike snipers who always wound on a 4, against MC's you need 6's, which is where VOE comes in handy, better to get a decent heavy weapon shot, than to rely on 6's to wound.

 

GC08

[ShinyRhino]

Actually despite being a sniping and rending weapon, the stalker boltgun is S4, so unlike snipers who always wound on a 4, against MC's you need 6's, which is where VOE comes in handy, better to get a decent heavy weapon shot, than to rely on 6's to wound.

 

GC08

 

 

Wow, I've been playing him wrong. There are many Guardsmen bearing special weapons, Tau squad leaders, and Kroot shapers that owe their lives to my ignorance!

[greatcrusade08]

yeah he only needs 3's to wound these guys, plus many people forget that with BS 6 he gets a re-roll on all missed shooting attacks

 

GC08

[Jackelope King]

A reroll that only hits on a 6, but still, better than nothing.

[Race Bannon]

Could it be, that to gain the +1 cover save for the squad Telion is a part of ... HE gets Stealth but cannot buy camo cloaks, THEY get camo cloaks but not have Stealth. Therefore, unless you buy camo cloaks for the squad (so every model in the Telion Squad gets ONLY +1 cover save), then only Telion gets a better save. And since the unit falls under majority saves then Telion effectively loses his Stealth unless either 1) the rest of the squad dies, or 2) you buy camo cloaks for everyone else.

 

;)

 

Fixes everything in my eyes.

[Ryjak]

That's exactly how it works. Nothing confusing there, especially when you spell it all out, right?

[krewl]

Could it be, that to gain the +1 cover save for the squad Telion is a part of ... HE gets Stealth but cannot buy camo cloaks, THEY get camo cloaks but not have Stealth. Therefore, unless you buy camo cloaks for the squad (so every model in the Telion Squad gets ONLY +1 cover save), then only Telion gets a better save. And since the unit falls under majority saves then Telion effectively loses his Stealth unless either 1) the rest of the squad dies, or 2) you buy camo cloaks for everyone else.

 

^_^

 

Fixes everything in my eyes.

Except that you assign wounds now, before you roll saves and so majority saves no longer matter. (As Thellion is a different guy from you regular scouts, so you are free to assign him wounds or not when you feel like it unless you get more wounds then the nr. of models in your squad.)

 

Just like a guy with articifier armour gets a 2+ save when he is wounded, regardless of the majority save of any unit he joined.

 

Majority save is a 4th edition rule, new SM dex is from 5th. Sorry to mess it up again.

(Hey, if you think 2 editios is complicated, I run stuff through my mind from 2nd edition.... image the mixups there ;-) )