Hfran Morkai Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Right, me and my bro are having an argument. Apparently if he had hidden his vendettas behind the forest they would get a cover save as they are below the tree line. However they have a flying base which would be above the trees. GW do not state that skimmers can change height during games and I'm sure if they could GW would specify this as otherwise during their turn the skimmer could be hidden and then pop up in their turn. What do my fellow brothers think? Is he just a sore loser or does he have a point? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Fang Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 If he wants the vendetta to hide behind the trees then strictly speaking he should shorten the flying stand. House rule but if he says "its desending to hide behind the trees" then its hidden but he can;t shoot that turn. The hide behind cover, pop up, shoot, hide back behind cover. Is an old Eldar tactic but even they can't do it anymore afaik. As long as he declares the height as the vendettaa moves I'd say go with it but that will block his line of sight as well. Long Fang Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1976415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 as long as more then half of the vehicle is covered he would get cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1976451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Nostromo Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The 'pop up' attack is certainly a thing of the past... Aah, back in the days of being a xenos... ahem, anyway. IMHO the basic premise is that if it can shoot, it can be shot at... true line of sight is the watch-word of this edition of 40k. If he fired at you in the previous turn, the target unit/a unit in the same spot would be able to return fire, but as lunchb0x rightly says, this might include an obscured save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1976459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 as Long Fang said, coming up with a house rule where you say how high it is would be best. i know that there are a lot of people, i think GW even commented on it, who say that as long as the model can be seen it can be shot at. again like Long Fang said, shortening the stand would be the best course, but it still takes away the ships shots. I tend to be more of a TLOS person my self, but if some one has a really scenic base or a really tall flier/skimmer base, i let them determine the height of the unit, but we have paper on hand to say how high it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1976491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 All of my waveserpents are on flying stands that are just under half an inch tall. If your models are laying down they can see under it... thats about it. They also hide behind cover pretty well.... and I made them back in 4rth edition, when they were worth the points I shell out for them. If he wants to be able to hide, he needs a smaller base. Simple. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1977378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott-S6 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 The valk is supposed to be flying at a helicopter's combat height which is represented pretty well by the big stand. It would take big trees to get in the way, genuinely forest sized trees. I've never seen trees that size in 40K. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1977538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJumppanen Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Right, me and my bro are having an argument. Apparently if he had hidden his vendettas behind the forest they would get a cover save as they are below the tree line. However they have a flying base which would be above the trees. GW do not state that skimmers can change height during games and I'm sure if they could GW would specify this as otherwise during their turn the skimmer could be hidden and then pop up in their turn. What do my fellow brothers think? Is he just a sore loser or does he have a point? If those trees reach high enough to cover half of those vendettas, then let him have that cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1977616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 If its reasonably close theres also the 5++ option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 well thinking on it, if the trees were flocked, i suppose that at about 5 or 6 inches off the ground there could be a chance that the trees block line of sight, but they would have to be flocked... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Laser pointer. If you can paint the target, you can shoot the target. If you can paint over half the target, no save. If you aren't sure, Dice/TO/5+ cover it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 Thing was he didn'thave them on their bases as he had just assembled them. This obviously made it much harder to determine but the point of the thread is that GW don't mention skimmers being able to change height to get cover saves and the like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deedark Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I dont know what a skimmer is capable of doing ie flight height wise, but I always play it is at the height of the base above the ground so if you see it you can shoot it, its down to the player to pick terrain that obscures, skimmer is a fixed height above the ground and that height is the base height Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapturowski Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 As I see it and going by the rules in the BRB(p.3 "Bases") you must mount your models on the bases supplied to be able to use them (unless you're using a scenic base in which case you need your opponents permisssion to field it). The only reason to remove the model from it's base is if it's a skimmer and it has been immobilized or wrecked (BRB p.71 "Shooting at skimmers"). Going by that, your bro isn't able to remove the flying stand during the game unless his Valkyrie is immobilized or wrecked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Well the fact that a model that is supposed to be "flying" in some way or form should have been discussed before the game. Secondly, as has been said, it is a vehicle if it has 50% of it's hull covered then it has a cover save. Lastly, there is no where in the rules covering the issue of being able to change height so it should have been determined before the game began that flying models have the ability to change height and when it occurs. This situation is purely a "house rule" situation, if he tried this in a tourney he would be called out and probibly docked points, so basically its up to you and your friend to decide how to play it and you have the right to decline it, in my opinion, as there is nothing in the rule book or special rules as far as I know of to support his position. The other option would be to make it a "Special Rule" and let him buy it in points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deedark Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I agree this probably needs clarifying before play commences, but for ease unless vehicle has a rule saying it can land then stand height is where its at, one or other. This is why I'd say height is not specified in the BRB. Pick cover that covers, saves getting into arguements, you are going to get players wanting cover saves and wanting to shoot as well, I'm below the tree line and now I'm not!!! Is the vertical movement calculated in their move did it drop 6in before moving etc. gets hard D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJumppanen Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 One more thing. The way i have allways played is that if there is trees on a terrain piece (like a hill) then that hill is covered entirely with trees. So if these trees are 4" high then that terrain piece is considered to reach 4" above the top of the hill. In other words: location of the tree or number of them on that terrain piece doesn't realy mean anything. If there is a tree then there is a forest of them and you can move those trees to make room for the modells. These trees aren't usualy able to obscure LOS that much that you couldn't be able to see through, so there is only the cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1978926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I would also say that if he can shoot you WITHOUT giving you a cover save for shooting through the cover then you can shoot him as well with him taking advantage of cover. Can't have it both ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1979022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I would also say that if he can shoot you WITHOUT giving you a cover save for shooting through the cover then you can shoot him as well with him taking advantage of cover. Can't have it both ways. ;) best said really. though him not having them on bases makes it hard to determine it for both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1979034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I would also say that if he can shoot you WITHOUT giving you a cover save for shooting through the cover then you can shoot him as well with him taking advantage of cover. Can't have it both ways. i'd agree with this if it was an infantry model but with vehicles (and being a guard player for some years i know this) its incredibly easy to postition your tank so the turret can pass clean through some trees/ ruins whilst the majority of you tanks is hidden from view thus granting you the obscurred save and the enemy no cover save... as for being able to change height during the game with skimmers as far as i know only tau vehicles can 'land' in which case they can't do anyhting else that turn (iirc that is). i don't have any problem with my opponent saying his skimmer is hugging the ground or flying high providing its declared at the end of his movement phase how high it is (i know one eldar player with 2 flying stands for each of his skimmers for just such an occassion). sometimes this will be to reduce the damage from incoming shots, soemtimes to hide totally from sight and othertimes to enable the vehicle to draw lin of sight under interposing scenery (i play mainly cities of death and have lots of walkways and such). dont forget, just because the vehicle is claiming cover doesn't mean you will necessarily recieve it, the los of the vehicles weapon must be obscurred by terrain for you to gain the save and as mentioned above, it is entirely possible to postion a vehicle with its weapons poking through gaps in tree lines or ruins or whatever terrain it is to gain a clear los, skimmer or not basically it depends how its being done as to how cheesey the opponent is being, if its done at the end of his movement, blocking los both from you to him and vice versa then not too bad, but if he's saying that its done at the end of his turn so he gets to shoot you and then drop bellow the tree lines then i'd call him out on it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/167669-skimmers-and-cover/#findComment-1979259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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