Montuhotep Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Evening all, Doubtless the above has been asked before so my apologies in advance if so but amongst my group there is discussion. Some say they are, in the same way as a Warboss makes Nobs troops (closest equivalent we could think of) but others say obviously not as not stated. Personally I think this is a classic case of RAW v RAI but I don't run Kantor so I'm the neutral who got stuck with asking. Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arbogast1 Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I'm not too familiar with his rules, but I think that Sternguard count as scoring meaning that they can hold objectives. However, they still take up an Elites slot, not a Troop slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Tweedle Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 They dont become troops and still take elite slots. But they are scoring units. Its never said in the wording that you can take them as troops. Its not even RAW vs RAI, its Rules vs Cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montuhotep Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 Its not even RAW vs RAI, its Rules vs Cheating. This is why it's a matter of some debate amongst the others. Cheers for the replies, gents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustermaker Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I always thought that it made an Elite choice a scoring unit so they still counted as an Elite choice.... However after reading the Scoring Unit entry in the 5th Edition Rule Book on page 90, I now believe that Kantor makes those Sternguard units into scoring units aka troops. My reasoning for this is the line about scoring units. It states that: an armies scoring units are all the units that come from it's troop allowance. So by that wording it makes the Sternguard into scoring units and by being scoring units they are now troop choices. That is just the way I am reading it, and I would love to hear other people's opinion on the wording of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 My reasoning for this is the line about scoring units. It states that: an armies scoring units are all the units that come from it's troop allowance. So by that wording it makes the Sternguard into scoring units and by being scoring units they are now troop choices. The rule describes that all the troop choice units are scoring, not that all scoring units are troops. These are the basic rules for what units count as scoring and what units don't. Codices can have special rules that supercede the generic rules, and if the Codex Space Marines describes that Cantor's Sternguard Veteran units, who are an Elite choice, count as scoring, then they do that. The rule does nothing more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arschbombe Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The rule in the main rule book is the basic definition that applies to all codices. Pedro's rule modifies it for sternguard units so that they are scoring units in addition to the units from the troops section of the codex. If his rule meant that they counted as troops for FOC purposes then it would say so like it does in other codices where that is intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 The sternguard become scoring if your army includes Pedro, but they DO NOT become troops. Sternguard as troops would be helluva fun though. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Kantor's Tactics are an exception to the rule. The Sternguard simply count as scoring units, but they still take up Elite slots. If Kantor turned them into troops, I'd never use tac squads again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Opinions have nothing to do with it - the rules are clear: While giving a Captain a bike allows for Bike Squads to be taken as Troops (and therefor count as scoring), Kantor simply allows the Sternguard to count as scoring - but does not allow them to be selected as Troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustermaker Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Opinions have nothing to do with it - the rules are clear: While giving a Captain a bike allows for Bike Squads to be taken as Troops (and therefor count as scoring), Kantor simply allows the Sternguard to count as scoring - but does not allow them to be selected as Troops. I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I have another question about this definition of scoring units. The definition of scoring units in the rulebook states that an army's scoring units all come from the troops allowance. So my question is: Do taking 3 sternguard units take away from the maximum amount of troops choices you can have(6) in a codex marine army? Since Kantor makes them become "scoring units" and it says that scoring units come from its Troop "Allowance". Aka, you could take 3 sternguard units as Elite(scoring units) and only 3 more troop choices because the scoring unit part of Kantor's rule dips into the "scoring unit" definition in the rulebook? I personally don't believe this is the case, but the rulebook is really using some odd wording in the definition of "scoring unit". I have never tried and will never try to do this in a game, because I don't agree that they become troops or take away from troop "allowance", but as I said... GW is really leaving some odd wording... Also the part about "opinions" I was talking about was more what other people thought about the definition and how odd it is, because people's take or opinion is what makes for so many different interpretations of rules and the LARGE amount of rule lawyers out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurasuke Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I have another question about this definition of scoring units. The definition of scoring units in the rulebook states that an army's scoring units all come from the troops allowance. So my question is: Do taking 3 sternguard units take away from the maximum amount of troops choices you can have(6) in a codex marine army? Since Kantor makes them become "scoring units" and it says that scoring units come from its Troop "Allowance". Aka, you could take 3 sternguard units as Elite(scoring units) and only 3 more troop choices because the scoring unit part of Kantor's rule dips into the "scoring unit" definition in the rulebook? I personally don't believe this is the case, but the rulebook is really using some odd wording in the definition of "scoring unit". I have never tried and will never try to do this in a game, because I don't agree that they become troops or take away from troop "allowance", but as I said... GW is really leaving some odd wording... Also the part about "opinions" I was talking about was more what other people thought about the definition and how odd it is, because people's take or opinion is what makes for so many different interpretations of rules and the LARGE amount of rule lawyers out there. Codex trumps rulebook. Kantor's special rule is an addendum to the rulebook. Sternguard, an elite choice, are scoring. They are not moved to troops at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustermaker Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I have another question about this definition of scoring units. The definition of scoring units in the rulebook states that an army's scoring units all come from the troops allowance. So my question is: Do taking 3 sternguard units take away from the maximum amount of troops choices you can have(6) in a codex marine army? Since Kantor makes them become "scoring units" and it says that scoring units come from its Troop "Allowance". Aka, you could take 3 sternguard units as Elite(scoring units) and only 3 more troop choices because the scoring unit part of Kantor's rule dips into the "scoring unit" definition in the rulebook? I personally don't believe this is the case, but the rulebook is really using some odd wording in the definition of "scoring unit". I have never tried and will never try to do this in a game, because I don't agree that they become troops or take away from troop "allowance", but as I said... GW is really leaving some odd wording... Also the part about "opinions" I was talking about was more what other people thought about the definition and how odd it is, because people's take or opinion is what makes for so many different interpretations of rules and the LARGE amount of rule lawyers out there. Codex trumps rulebook. Kantor's special rule is an addendum to the rulebook. Sternguard, an elite choice, are scoring. They are not moved to troops at all. I agree that they aren't troops now, but the wording is a little cloudy on the "allowance" part. I wish that GW would be a little more clear in their wording. If this was a contract I know that a lawyer would go after that part. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 The definition of scoring units in the rulebook states that an army's scoring units all come from the troops allowance. That is not what the rulebook states, as I have pointed out earlier. "An army's scoring units are all the units that come from it's Troops allowance." - Rulebook, page 90 It means all Troops allowance units are scoring, NOT that all scoring units come from the Troops allowance. The sentence could be rephrased to "all the units that come from an armies Troops allowance are scoring units". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighLord74 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 As stated by several others Pedro does not make Sternguard Troops his special rule just allows the Elite FOC Sterguard to count as scoring for holding/taking Objectives, etc - Thus Pedro allows for up to 9 "regular" or 18 "Combat Squaded" Scoring units (6 Troop FOCs, 3 Sternguard / combat squaded to "12" Troop & "6" Sternguard)........... For those that interpret the Core Rules as "Scoring=Troops" rather than "Troops=Scoring" should still remember the same book states "Codex Special Rule overrides Rulebook" Other Codices have Characters that allow some other Non-Troop Unit to be taken as troops, ie the Orc Example, SpiritSeer w Wraithguard Example & SM Capt on Bike example - these examples state clearly that that the affected unit becomes a Troop FOC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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