New DH Special Character

[Zebub]

Hi... I have been all but a lurker for some time (except for a question some time a go)... I would like to know what you think of this small endeavor of mine so I thought this was as good a chance as any to make another post. I have been following the thread by Aidoneus (Fixing Daemonhunters) where changes are proposed to the Daemonhunter Codex. I am using these rules but I would also like to have the option of fielding a competitive Special Character, so I tried making my own. Here goes:

 

HQ: Grand Master Cantarro

Points WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

235 6 5 4(6) 4 3 5 4(5) 10 2+/4++

 

Wargear:

Bionics, Blessing of the Pure, Icon of the Just and Mantle of Warding.

 

Blessing of the Pure:

The sword, Faith of the Fallen, and the hammer, Hand of Heroes. In the early days of the chapter, the Grey Knights thwarted an amada of Chaos that was about to attack one of the forge worlds of the Adeptus Mechanicus. As a token of appreciation the tech priests on the planet made the two artifacts for the Grey Knights. Traditionally handed to Grand Masters that destinguishes themselves, a new one getting them when the former recipient dies. They were handed to Cantarro when he extracted the revered hero that had the Blessing of the Pure before him, Grand Master Jalnari. He was trapped fighting a Daemonic Incursion that excalated beyond expectations, but against all odds, Cantarro managed to get Jalnari out and push the Daemons back in a bold counter attack. Jalnari was in bad shape and beyond saving, but was grateful for being returned for incursion in the crypt under the fortress on Titan. He wished with his dying breath that the weapons would be passed on to Cantarro.

A pair of Anointed Master Crafted Nemesis Force Weapons.

 

Mantle of Warding: A suit of terminator armor with Unguents of Warding.

 

Special Rules:

Ancient Canticle, Eternal Warrior, Grey Knight, Independant Character, Psyker, Retinue and Victory or Death.

 

Victory or Death:

Cantarro and his chosen few have been the last ones standing against the enemy more than a few times, and where others would have given up, they ensured victory themselves.

If Grand Master Cantarro is accompanied by a retinue of Grey Knight Terminators, they will count as a Scoring Unit for the purposes of claiming objectives.

 

Ancient Canticle:

When engaging their enemy, Cantarro and his men chants an ancient prayer that inspires them, letting them cut a bloody swathe through any enemy and be on top of the next within moments.

As long as Grand Master Cantarro is with his retinue, they roll 2d6 for consolidation and pick the highest.

 

Independant Character: Grand Master Cantarro does not have this ability as long as he is accompanied by his retinue.

 

Retinue: Grand Master Cantarro may be accompanied by a retinue as detailed on page 23 in the Daemonhunter Codex.

 

Psychic Powers:

Mind over Metal.

 

Mind over Metal:

Through the centuries of destroying chaos in all its forms, Cantarro has observed that what he seeks to purge sometimes hides behind, or manifests in, the thickest of armor. To remove this obstacle, he has learned to let his precious weapons carve through steel as easily as it tears through flesh.

Mind over Metal is a psychic power that may be used in the players assault phase. If the test is passed, and extra 1d3 is rolled for armor penetration for the remainder of that assault phase.

 

If by chance anyone should be interested, I have written some fluff for him that I can post. I have tried to balance him according to the rule changes in the Fixing Daemonhunters thread and with consideration to the power of other Special Characters. I am not sure if I have hit the spot, so any assistance with balancing him out would be very much appreciated.

I have chosen to not build him as anti-daemon/chaos, but instead giving him the option to choose from the armory, so he can be customized to be anti-daemon/chaos if one should wish so.

The ability I am most worried about is of course Unsung Legend. Not sure if is too cheesy. If so it could be nerfed to being an aura or just for his own squad.

 

- Zebub

[wingedwarrior73]

I'm willing to go out on a limb here, and say he's a bit over-powered.

[Peredyne]

I'm willing to go out on a limb here, and say he's a bit over-powered.

Master of understatement, there.

 

Hideously overpowered would be my description.

 

The only way I'd even consider that on the board is in an apoc game, and only for testing purposes.

 

Other than that, my reaction is :)

[Secondwind]

-Looking at your concept your character is a beefy close combat man who weilds two nemesis force weapons--(melee, anti infantry / tank)

 

Points Cost in my opinion your looking at 175-250 as your points range for a special character in terminator armour. Anything higher and people wont touch him due to not getting enough boots on the ground for objectives or will grab a landraider.

(275pts for your character + 4 terminators + psycannon = 484 pts a heavy investment considering you can get 16 grey knights for cheaper) I think your character would be pointed much higher (350+ without a sweat) due to the number of special rules and very high resilience / attacks.

 

 

Blessing of the pure: nice idea 3+ invulnerable your essentially adding a stormshield which still grants a +1 attack.

-problem of this is that for a high initiative character with str 6 force weapon it should essentially mean your going to pay a high premium to do it . -suits him as hes melee based and 3+ invulns will help him get into combat safer. + master craft there too but you can probably drop that if you need to chip off points on him.

 

 

Mantle of Warding: I presume this is working exactly the same as Unguents of warding do at the moment? fine.

 

Options: None he may not choose anything from the armoury -- One of the biggest rules is that special characters have their wargear set in stone so that the overall cheaper points cost will be sacrificing the greater options/survivability. (Khan does have an option but its still under his entry and there is not really much possible scope to increase survivability or power.) In regards to anti daemon equipment I'm pretty sure hes fine without them.

 

Eternal Warrior - Fine on its own, with a 3+ invuln and 4 wounds its pretty much overkill at this point hes got a very similar statline to marneus but strikes first, can instant kill alot of things has a better invulnerable save.... You need to balance your character if he has a 3+ invulnerable then he probably doesnt need eternal warrior... If he does need it then I suggest you tone back that invuln to a 4+ or a 5+.

 

Ancient Canticle: I like this ability, think most people really want their one GKT to be scoring due to allowing so much more flexibility in objective holding. Suits his concept of being up front and makes a good modification to an army list though you had to make sure his points cost is viable as 500+ point cost terminator hq units to make use of this ability will make your character untouched. Free movement on his unit seems fine.

 

Unsung Legend: Furious charge ooh nice, too bad slightly too powerful when combined with the rest of the abilities, Id either drop ancient canticle and keep this or vice versa, hes become slightly too much like 2 heros stuck in one body.

 

Psychic powers: having two psychic powers + a nemesis force weapon will mean your never using them all and points sinking your character, scourging seems to be kinda against his close combat style so mind over metal seems the more appropriate. That being said your making the terminator unit be effective against infantry, tanks and be scoring a slightly too all rounded approach imo. I'd avoid them or make it so that he has mind over metal but gains only +d3 ontop of his standard str 6+ d6. Not so powerful but reigns in those points some more.

 

--------------------------------

Overall I think the individual concepts / ideas are great but they are being overcombined to make him too powerful or too costly. I suggest shedding off some of the bells and whistles, allow him to have an actual weakness and that should bring his points down. To not discard some of the concepts maybe create a second character who you can use them on.

 

ideas of my own creation I like:

 

terminator storm bolter drill: GK terminator squad (or all GK Termies) gain true grit.

Runed force weapon: Pass a psychic test and it Ignores invulnerable saves though cannot slay outright an enemy if used.

Improved Shrouding: while the character is alive all rolls for GK's shrouding are 4d6 pick the lowest 3 and multiply by 3 for distance.

[Aidoneus]

I agree with secondwind in that your concepts are mostly good, but should not all be there together.

 

Blessing of the Pure: Two NFWs sounds really cool, and master-crafted seems appropriate too. However, I fail to see how they would give him a 3+ invulnerable save. They're just weapons. Also, because of our changes, he'll have a 4+ inv anyway, so I definitely think that your 3+ inv can be dropped.

 

Mantle of Warding: Why not just say he has Unguents of Warding?

 

Options: Absolutely not. No special character has armoury access. The whole point is that they're unique, and work exactly as described.

 

Eternal Warrior: As secondwind said, this is overpowered with his stats. I say it's fine, but keep him at the standard 3 wounds, and of course drop the 3+ inv save. That ought to be fairly balanced.

 

Ancient Canticle: Making one unit of GKTs Scoring is a nice idea. I worry about power levels, but since GKTs are so emblematic of our army, and since they're so expensive as it is, it should be fine. Think of it like a sort of Pedro-ish ability. However, I don't like the Scout move. I really don't see Terminators being about to make the Scout move "in real life." I think he'd be just fine without it, so it shouldn't be a problem to drop it.

 

Unsung Legend: This is the one ability I don't like on principle. Furious Charge seems like a very un-Grey Knight-ish ability. The description in the BBB says something about charging madly into melee, whereas I see GKs as being extremely reserved and methodical. Even a CC character would still be, first and foremost, a grey knight, and I just can't see them with furious charge. Also, on a more practical note, he's already I5, the whole darned army is S6, and I don't really see the need to raise those.

 

Independant Character: I'm not sure about this. I mean literally, I don't know if I like it or not. On the one hand, I feel like a special character isn't going to just blend into a squad, and I worry about power levels. On the other hand, this is how we've left our regular GK heros, and it seems very Grey Knight-ish for the "hero" to be just one among his brothers. I guess since it's our standard, it should be fine to leave it as-is.

 

Retinue: Just say he may take a GKT retinue as described on page such-and-such.

 

Scourging: I see this as trying to make up for his not having a shooting attack. It's not a bad idea, and I could get behind it. However, keep in mind what secondwind said about not having any weaknesses, and paying a premium of points for that. In an army where we need as many points for our Troops as possible, sometimes less is more. You're call though, as there's nothing wrong with the Scourging in-and-of itself.

 

Mind over Metal: Nice, but as Secondwind said, maybe a bit too powerful. I can think of two options. First, you could say he gets an additional +D3 on his penetration vs. vehicles. Alternatively, you could make it just an ability (not a psychic power) and make it something like he can use both NFWs together in one thrust to penetrate vehicle armour, giving him Str+2D6 pen, but limiting him to 1 attack that round (still master-crafted, of course). Either would work, but I honestly like the second better. If you do that, definitely leave the Scourging, as it would be his only power.

 

After all those changes, he could probably be dropped down to maybe around 210pts? I'm pretty bad at judging what to charge for special characters, but I feel like that would be pretty reasonable.

 

Also, I have to say, I'm very pleased to see my rules-alterations are arousing some interest. I have to ask, have you played any games with them yet? If not, please do! And when you have, please go over to my thread (link in my signature) and tell us all how it went! We desperately need people to start play-testing, so we can wrap things up and send the ideas to GW and BoLS, plus just publish them as a finished product here for people to use. And who knows, maybe I'll throw in Cantarro too, as an addendum. :P

[Zebub]

Blessing of the Pure: I have dropped the 3++ save. It was a way to give him a storm shield and +1A that would be lost if a ranged weapon was bought.

 

Mantle of Warding: I originally had this as a 3+ save, but I revised it. No reason not to just write Unguents of Warding now.

 

Options: 'Tis gone.

 

Eternal Warrior: Changed his wounds to 3 and kept this.

 

Ancient Canticle: I will keep the scoring thing for now. I thought the scout move would be a cool way to let him truly lead from the front, but terminators being too bulky to pull it off is a good point. Dropped. Name and fluff doesn't really fit any more so I will think of something different.

 

Unsung Legend: I don't think the 5th ed. description is as specific as to how the units with it fight as it was in 4th, but IDHMBWM. I guess I thought the +1I would be great and the +1S would give the units a better chance against walkers, but to charge ahead furiously does not seem very Grey Knight-ish when I think about it, so I've dropped it.

 

Independant Character: I guess it stays.

 

Retinue: Will change it to a page reference when I get to me books.

 

Scourging: Dropped

 

Mind over Metal: Changed to +D3. GK can take any vehicle that has AV R11 or less, which are most. This was to give a model in the army a good chance against R14. I don't think that one S6+2d6 against a LR is worth using a termie unit to charge a LR over, and I like it being a psychic power.

 

Overall I think the individual concepts / ideas are great but they are being overcombined to make him too powerful or too costly. I suggest shedding off some of the bells and whistles, allow him to have an actual weakness and that should bring his points down. To not discard some of the concepts maybe create a second character who you can use them on.

 

It is my plan to make two more, a psyker and a shooter, but I obviously need to refine my balancing skills first. Your abilities could be quite helpful with that, assuming you wouldn't mind me using them. The ignoring ++ saves one would fit with this guy, but I guess it would be unbalancing to add it.

 

After all those changes, he could probably be dropped down to maybe around 210pts? I'm pretty bad at judging what to charge for special characters, but I feel like that would be pretty reasonable.

 

It seems I am no good at all, so I'll try with your estimate.

 

Also, I have to say, I'm very pleased to see my rules-alterations are arousing some interest. I have to ask, have you played any games with them yet? If not, please do! And when you have, please go over to my thread (link in my signature) and tell us all how it went! We desperately need people to start play-testing, so we can wrap things up and send the ideas to GW and BoLS, plus just publish them as a finished product here for people to use.

 

Nothing I would like more than a chance to playtest them, but it is unfortunately going to be a while before I will get the chance.

 

And who knows, maybe I'll throw in Cantarro too, as an addendum. ;)

 

Welll now that would just be awesome <_<.

 

Would it btw be way off to add bionics and up him 15 pts?

 

Thanks for the comments!

 

- Zebub

[Aidoneus]

Bionics could be fluffy, and not overpowering. With the Eternal Warrior he'll be very hard to kill, but also a heck of a lot of points, so it balances. The one consideration is that would be 15pts fewer to spend on the rest of your army. Personally, I'd prefer him without, for that reason alone. But I don't think it's unbalanced or anything, so it's up to you.

[Prathios]

I'm willing to go out on a limb here, and say he's a bit over-powered.

Master of understatement, there.

 

Hideously overpowered would be my description.

 

The only way I'd even consider that on the board is in an apoc game, and only for testing purposes.

 

Other than that, my reaction is ;)

 

I disagree entirely. For only 200 points I can customize a Black Templar Chaplain to be almost this good. So some of the specific special abilities are too much but in general he isn't that bad.

[Secondwind]

Looking good, points wise I'd say have a brief look at the points cost of other terminator special chars who might be similar and work off that to guestimate it (he looks around 190-220 pts imo). Feel free to use any ideas i put forward as I think your conceptualisation / fluff ideas seem nice and I look forward to seeing more.

 

Lastly even though you removed the scout move to ancient canticle I did like the image of him plowing on undeterred with his retinue to reach his daemonic foe while other grey knights get bogged down in combat. I thought maybe an idea would be to increase his squads consolidation move by +1 to represent that. I dont think thats really overpowered though someone else may say otherwise ^^.

[Aidoneus]

@Secondwind: I don't think it would be overpowered. I also don't think it's necessary, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it. If you decide to do this, an alternative suggestion might be to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for consolidation. Just a thought.

[Terminus]

Blessing of the Pure: A pair of Master Crafted Nemesis Force Weapons.

:D

 

I know the Nemesis halberds/greatswords are technically one-handed weapons in 40k, but equipping two of them is just silly.

[Zebub]

Bionics could be fluffy, and not overpowering. With the Eternal Warrior he'll be very hard to kill, but also a heck of a lot of points, so it balances. The one consideration is that would be 15pts fewer to spend on the rest of your army. Personally, I'd prefer him without, for that reason alone. But I don't think it's unbalanced or anything, so it's up to you.

 

Being a Grand Master he has fought Daemons for centuries upon centuries. I find it beyond doubt that some spare parts are needed at some time or another, so I would like it to be in there.

 

I disagree entirely. For only 200 points I can customize a Black Templar Chaplain to be almost this good. So some of the specific special abilities are too much but in general he isn't that bad.

 

I don't know if you mean before or after his changes, because he looks quite different know than when he was posted.

 

Looking good, points wise I'd say have a brief look at the points cost of other terminator special chars who might be similar and work off that to guestimate it (he looks around 190-220 pts imo).

 

Well now his pointcost is right between Lysander and Calgar, which as far as I can tell seems right.

 

Feel free to use any ideas i put forward as I think your conceptualisation / fluff ideas seem nice and I look forward to seeing more.

 

Thanks.

 

Lastly even though you removed the scout move to ancient canticle I did like the image of him plowing on undeterred with his retinue to reach his daemonic foe while other grey knights get bogged down in combat. I thought maybe an idea would be to increase his squads consolidation move by +1 to represent that. I dont think thats really overpowered though someone else may say otherwise ^^.

 

That sounds like my own image of him. I could probably add something like this as with the new consolidation rules it seems somewhat isnignificant.

 

@Secondwind: I don't think it would be overpowered. I also don't think it's necessary, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it. If you decide to do this, an alternative suggestion might be to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for consolidation. Just a thought.

 

This is probably a bit better, being in line with the other movement increasing abilities I can think of.

 

:D

 

I know the Nemesis halberds/greatswords are technically one-handed weapons in 40k, but equipping two of them is just silly.

 

Who says NFWs has to be halberds or greatswords? I was under the impression a NFW could be anything.

[Aidoneus]

I know the Nemesis halberds/greatswords are technically one-handed weapons in 40k, but equipping two of them is just silly.

Who says NFWs has to be halberds or greatswords? I was under the impression a NFW could be anything.

Agreed. In fact, you should probably say what each one is, probably give them each a name, and perhaps a little backstory.

 

I know things are getting pricey, but have you considered anointing them? Remember, that's a weapon upgrade now, and it seems like something this guy would have. Might be redundant with his psychic power though. Just a thought.

[Zebub]

Agreed. In fact, you should probably say what each one is, probably give them each a name, and perhaps a little backstory.

 

I had imagined them to be a sword and a hammer. The sword is a part of the Grey Knights chapter symbol and the hammer, well, The Order of the Hammer. Considering it's use in combat it also seems plausible: One to parry with and one to hit 'em with. As far as backstory goes it's hard to write anything other than they are old chapter artifacts, since existing fluff is pretty lacking. That of course leaves room for making something up. I will try to think of something and add some names for them.

 

I know things are getting pricey, but have you considered anointing them? Remember, that's a weapon upgrade now, and it seems like something this guy would have. Might be redundant with his psychic power though. Just a thought.

 

It does seem fitting. I'll add it for now. 235 pts is still payable.

[Zebub]

There... I've added some fluff for his weapons and given him the consolidation ability.

[Secondwind]

Erk sorry for not replying to this earlier, zebub I didnt realise it had been updated ^^.

Cantarro really looks interesting with the added fluff though I think youve successfully brought another unsung grey knight hero to life! =)

 

I think the only thing anyone can do now would be to play some games and make sure his points cost is not too over or under his worth.

 

I look forward to seeing any other heros you think up.

[Zebub]

Good...

 

Within a couple of days I will add some background fluff and perhaps a flavor story... Just to give him a little more personality.