all the eggs in one basket

[terminatorAM]

so im talking about back in 4th ed. when if you took a land raider full of terminators and a commander your opponent would immediatly target it because it was one target with about half your points in it. now with the new new kill point system this isnt a big problem because killing them would only yeild 3pnts which is equal to poping 3 useless drop pods. However, my question is: is it still too risky to have a LRC loaded with termies and Lysander? I play a highly mechanized list with a bunch of transports and tanks for fire support but only one land raider and my opponent has realized wht it carries so even w/ high armor saturation its still a juicy target for my opponent's falcon riding fire dragons.

 

So is this too risky of a unit to feild now or do i just need to change my tactics a little and if so what works best to keep these buggers away?

 

this is in regards to a 2000pnt game by the way

[jeffersonian000]

I routinely field 3 Land Raiders loaded with virtually my entire army riding inside; that's 3 big targets with a very forgiving damage chart my opponent gets to waste shots at while I close (or not). Versus assaulty armies, its a tought force to beat. Against shooty armies, its tough force to beat.

 

I say, don't worry. Armour-killers still need to hit, penetrate, and then wreck or destroy your 'Raider before it's effectively stopped. Crew stunned/shacked are functionally wasted hits, while your 'Raider has 4 weapons/wounds to absorb mid-chart rolls. Even an immobilization doesn't hurt you much, as your 'Raider just becomes a heavily armed and armoured building.

 

SJ

[ShinyRhino]

I'd echo jeffersionian's sentiments. Vehicles are very tough to kill in Fifth Edition. Even if you DO kill one, the effects on passengers is minimal. I regularly use Rhinos as mobile bunkers until they pop. And when they do, your Marines only take a S3 hit apiece, and then armor saves.

 

Land Raiders are an even tougher target.

[Olesh]

Land raiders are a very difficult nut to crack for some armies. I personally don't believe in using them to transport anything except assault troops, but if you're running and gunning without any assault troops in your army, having a big, over-weaponed AV14 tank that is immune to anything except anti-tank firepower (and difficult to crack with THAT, as well) is still a big over-weaponed AV14 tank that comes in anti horde, anti-tank, or anti-MEQ flavors. Also beep beep I'm a jeep.

[Giga]

My current list has a LR with 5 assault termies and Vulkan in it. I play 1500 pts, so it's half my points.

 

Although this single unit can be devastating to some opponents, on the overall I wouldn't recommend it. The main problem with "all eggs in one basket" strategy is that your one basket can't be everywhere at the same time, and the rest of your army is likely to not be nearly as capable of dealing with other threats. This way, smart opponents will take advantage of your list's overspecialization in one place, and will take advantage of it.

 

This is particularly troublesome when people employ outflanking or deep striking unit that your tacticals will have trouble dealing with. Or if, god forbid, someone immobilizes or even gets a lucky destroy effect on your LR.

[Gornall]

In a 2000 point game, I wouldn't consider a LR with Assault Termies/Commander too expensive. It's about 1/4 of your total points, which leaves more than enough for more units IMO. TBH, in 2000 points, I'd hate to NOT have Assault Termies, simply because they can deal with so many other big meanies that Marines can't deal with well otherwise. However at 1500 points, I think it does start to become more of an issue, requiring you to play well to make sure you get the most out of that 500 point investment.

[Bosco]

I have been running a 5 man assault termie squad in a LRR (with extra armor) and a chaplain with meltabomb in my 1000 point list. While this accounts for more than half the points of my army the combo has yet to disappoint me. Earlier tonight I used this unit against the new guard codex and they wiped out everything but the Leman Russ Demolisher with plasma sponsons and vet squad in a chimera which both chose to remain well out of reach for the entire game. If my opponent does not destroy/immobilize the LRR before my second turn then chances are that it will successfully deliver the terminators/chaplain and can remain a massive problem for the remainder of the game. The key to success I find is in tying up several units with the terminators when they make their assault, hopefully preventing any neighboring melta weapons from putting an end to the LRR.

[Combo]

mathmatically speaking when a landraider blows up the occupents (assuming they are terminators) have a 0.277~ deaths per five men rate. if they are power armoured then you have a 0.555~ deaths per five men rate. So your more likely not to lose a terminator than to lose one when a raider blows up. And thats assuming it blows up, if its just wrecked you'll only have to take a pinning test.

[chapter master 454]

Well considering most of your army will be inside a raider, I would say it's more of the fact some people just need to concentrate their power into one mighty force rather than water style idea where anything is everything. I use tons of armour, currently challenging myself not to use any SCs or land raiders because when you roast 5 power armoured guys a turn with hell storms for about the 7th game it does get a little dull. Basicly all your doing is focusing your might into one spot and then driving it at the foe. Sledgehammer to shatter, the rest just to keep them from re-forming and mopping up.

[Clone]

I'm thinking about fielding a LRC and LR against an Eldar player with 2 Dreads and 3 Land Speeders for support. Is it too much of a risk against Bright Lances?

[Vel'Cona]

In general Bright Lances aren't really that much more dangerous than Tau Railguns or Melta weps, in my experience. Especially since the thing carrying them (Falcon, Guardians, War Walkers) is usually not very sturdy. I would be more worried about Fire Dragons and even Storm Guardians w/ Fusion Guns. That said, double or even triple LR works quite well for BT death by chainswords builds, but for C:SM I'm not sure how much you stand to gain by not simply taking advantage of the variety available to you. Also, what are you putting in the LRs? The loadout of the LR is often more important than the type in my opinion!

[Clone]

In general Bright Lances aren't really that much more dangerous than Tau Railguns or Melta weps, in my experience. Especially since the thing carrying them (Falcon, Guardians, War Walkers) is usually not very sturdy. I would be more worried about Fire Dragons and even Storm Guardians w/ Fusion Guns. That said, double or even triple LR works quite well for BT death by chainswords builds, but for C:SM I'm not sure how much you stand to gain by not simply taking advantage of the variety available to you. Also, what are you putting in the LRs? The loadout of the LR is often more important than the type in my opinion!

The Crusader would have Lysander and 5 Assault Terminators and the standard Raider would have a 10 man Tac Squad, not sure on the load out for the Tacticals yet though.

[BrotherErekose]

My eggs are usually Khan (outflank), chaplain and Vanguard, the basket being an LRR.

 

Last couple games, I made it Khan, Kantor and a full load of Honorguard. 2k sized games.

 

They'll destroy the initial target, handily, unless I get to where I can target and assault 2 units of enemy SMs. Then I can get the 2nd round of them not shooting at me ....

 

Though I slap my forehead afterward and remember I coulda used Khan's Hit&Run.

 

While it is along the lines of this thread ... anyone use Khan (yeah, yeah there's lotsa Kantor SG spam out there), but does anyone use Khan and Hit & Run with this large set up?

 

And just how filthy/cheesy to use Khan *and* PK? With HonorGuard? :D

 

And being the tactics forum, I'm looking to glean some H&R tactics as I haven't really used it, as normally my Khan + Vanguard leave nothing behind.

 

-Brother Erekose

[Vel'Cona]

@Clone: Definitely like Lysander with the termies. Tho his bolter drill can actually make normal termies pretty beefy too, especially against orks and stuff, and you can still follow up with an assault. Just a thought. As far as the second LR, I'm not sure what it'll help to have 10 tacs chillin in a standard LR. Usually LR are assault transports (hence the rule B) ) so you may be better suited with Vanguard vets or assault marines without jump packs. Usually tac squads do well with just a standard Rhino or RB. Tho I don't discourage keeping your tacs in the LR for a well kept scoring/contesting unit.

 

@BrotherErekose: I don't think it's filthy/cheesy to use two SC in the same army, IMO you're spending mad points so it's up to you. In general though, I think Khan and Outflank are questionable at best and overrated at worst. Especially with the new IG. I feel that a Khan (or White Scars) list is better suited taking advantage of Bikes=Scoring and outflanking multiple squads. I find having one really beefy squad doesn't really make your opponent shudder with fear; most people will just let you eat the first unit, then nuke you down with Plasma and Ordnance. To speak in Killhammer, the K1 of the unit is ridiculous, but the D1 and D2 of the unit is not so hot. And that's at a BIG point sink. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

[Warp Angel]

@BrotherErekose: I don't think it's filthy/cheesy to use two SC in the same army, IMO you're spending mad points so it's up to you. In general though, I think Khan and Outflank are questionable at best and overrated at worst. Especially with the new IG. I feel that a Khan (or White Scars) list is better suited taking advantage of Bikes=Scoring and outflanking multiple squads. I find having one really beefy squad doesn't really make your opponent shudder with fear; most people will just let you eat the first unit, then nuke you down with Plasma and Ordnance. To speak in Killhammer, the K1 of the unit is ridiculous, but the D1 and D2 of the unit is not so hot. And that's at a BIG point sink. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

 

That's my opinion of Khan and bike command squads, though D1 is higher than you'd expect because of the Apothacary. It suffers from relatively low D2 (it degrades in effectiveness quickly), and the unit is almost always at Risk to shooting or CC.

 

Khan running around in power armor (no bike) with terminators is a whole different deal, and quite awesome without being the same kind of points sink. And I think it was that kind of Khan unit that BrotherErekose was referring to.

[Clone]

@Clone: Definitely like Lysander with the termies. Tho his bolter drill can actually make normal termies pretty beefy too, especially against orks and stuff, and you can still follow up with an assault. Just a thought. As far as the second LR, I'm not sure what it'll help to have 10 tacs chillin in a standard LR. Usually LR are assault transports (hence the rule :P ) so you may be better suited with Vanguard vets or assault marines without jump packs. Usually tac squads do well with just a standard Rhino or RB. Tho I don't discourage keeping your tacs in the LR for a well kept scoring/contesting unit.

Unfortunately I don't have the points for Vanguard. The LR is there for toughness, firepower and to support my Crusader. I could change the Dreadnoughts for some Vanguard but I'll be needing their TL-LC's to take down some Wraithlords.

[Vel'Cona]

Ack!! I forgot Risk! :D

Need to read my articles again before I start quoting methinks.

Back OT though, Khan on foot is definitely something I hadn't really considered. I guess because Bikes=scoring is just so tasty. I still think he'd probably be more beefy with Hammer Termies or something more durable. Especially stacked with PK for the epic win.

[BrotherErekose]

@BrotherErekose: (snip!) To speak in Killhammer, the K1 of the unit is ridiculous, but the D1 and D2 of the unit is not so hot. And that's at a BIG point sink. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

 

That's my opinion of Khan and bike command squads, though D1 is higher than you'd expect because of the Apothacary. It suffers from relatively low D2 (it degrades in effectiveness quickly), and the unit is almost always at Risk to shooting or CC.

 

KillHammer? :D A Kill Points break down? Please forgive my ignorance.

 

Khan running around in power armor (no bike) with terminators is a whole different deal, and quite awesome without being the same kind of points sink. And I think it was that kind of Khan unit that BrotherErekose was referring to.

 

Correct. No bikes. My Khan walks, err, charges outta a LRR with VG or PKantor's HG. I have also done this with a couple mixes of assault termies, + chaplain.

 

I'm going to have to look into the new codex to see why you see it going badly versus IG, Vel'Cona. :)

[Warp Angel]

KillHammer? :lol: A Kill Points break down? Please forgive my ignorance.

 

Killhammer is a philosophy and a common lexicon for discussing and evaluating units, armies, and playstyle in 40k.

 

I haven't completely updated my sig with everything that should be in it, but searchy within tactica astartes will give you good results. There's about 15,000 words in the main articles with plenty of discussion.