Chaos Special Characters

[Epic Thoughts]

You know, I normally try to be cool, and encourage people to do whatever it is they want with their models. I mean, after all, it's your money. If your friends are cool with your Chaos Marines having a land speeder, do it! You want to play a game or two with some sternguard? Yeah! Go for it!

 

But, in every new codex that has come out recently, there are all these amazingly good special characters. Why don't we get those? I mean, sure Abaddon can bring the pain, and I feel he's priced halfway reasonable for what he does (even if he is a fire magnet), Kharne is a beast, but the rest of our special characters are just... lacking when compared to the likes of those found in Codex Marines and the other ones, like Ork and Imperial Guard.

 

When are we gonna some love?

[chillin]

I think one thing is that we pay a alot for our special characters, and they may be goood on their own, but unlike other armies SC they do nothing for the whole army or even the squad they are attached to. Part of the problem is that Gav Thorpe is a poor player and has a poor understanding of army list building and tactics (judging by WD battle reps.). "I want my SC's to be powerful" is a simple concept, having SC's that are interactive with the rest of the army is a more complicated concept that I think Gav Thorpe never even thought of.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Just another problem with our current codex. Our specials are just dumb. Hell, Tigurius, a 400 year old librarian is significantly stronger than Ahriman who is ten thousand years old and is supposed to be the strongest sorcerer below Magnus the Red.

 

Abbadon the Warmaster of Chaos who's powers have been described as being primarch level and has the backing of all the Chaos Gods is weaker than Calgar.

 

Other than Mortrarion, Typhus is the most powerful follower of Nurgle, who is the god of making things hard to kill. And yet Lysander is harder to kill, just because he's stubborn and grim. Right.

[Corpse.]

Just like 3.5, its a case of being left behind in the times and editions.

 

And unfortunately, we wont see an update for another 2 or 3 years if 5th edition holds steady. (From being in 2nd edition, this edition looks like it will stay for a very - very long time).

 

Chaos codex has always been the test codex for loyalist codexes. Our last 2 codexes were released before a new edition. Its no surprise we're used as the ladder for loyalists (the popular choice) because we share lots of similarities.

 

Even though we're still more powerful in many aspects. Our characters got left behind, because the new themes and fads are swirling around and after everyone gripes enough we'll get "dumbed down" characters again because chaos has such a nasty reputation. (Can thank lash and the fact we get daemon princes/greater daemons for HQ's for that).

 

I like being a part of the underdogs, and will never abandon chaos. Every time I extend my hand out for the loyalist codex, I hesitate and just buy more chaos stuff. Defiant until the end! Death to the emperor! =p

 

Abbadon still kicks the (beep) out of Calgar. hehe

 

I'll take Khârn against Khan any day of the week. I still say Lucious still cant fill Doomrider's shoes for EC's staplemark special character. But ariman, heh, wind of chaos and doombolt still superior to most of what powers loyalists still get. We dont need to fancy those up.

 

We dont need to be called smurfs anyways.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Aye, i play Chaos because i love the theme. I knew i wanted to play them before i even knew how the game worked. I'd play them if they were the worst race.

[Sons of Horus]

I agree with drudge.

 

I don't think we're being left behind because we have a new dex but I think we're being neglected. They only give us the dex to satisfy us temporarily but did they truly work on it? NO!! and we just have to face the fact that GW will always love the loyalists more ;) oh how I wish they'd do us justice

[Razhbad]

Never cared for Special Characters anyway and people who just go SM are sheep anyway. Thats why i went DH & CSM, SM with a twist.

 

I personally think Abaddon is better then Calgar, every time i've seen Calgar used in a game he seems to be the biggest waist of points there is.

[Zhukov]

Yeah most of the time abbadon beats Calgar, but problem is calgar gives the whole army the best leadership possible (able to choose if you want to pass or fail).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yeah, i meant that calgar was a larger asset to the army, not that he'd win in a 1v1. Although he still might if he got to shoot first because of his ridiculous ap 2 bolters.

[cathar the great]

Sorry, but I'm growing sick and tired about the never-ending ramblings about how other codices are better than one's own, that they have better toys and better units and cooler characters.

 

Work with what you got. The Chaos codex has some very unique and very cool units and characters that can be very effective if used correctly.

 

If you want to use the Space Marine codex, then do it! With the Counts-As rule becoming more and more established with every new codex, most people will let you use it for your Chaos Marines anyway, as long as you don't mix them...

 

I know we tend to forget other 40k races here, as it is a PA-only board, but imagine how the Eldar might feel? There are the oldest race and have practised warp-magic for a longer time than anyone else, and as far as I understand it, both Ahriman and Tigurius can simply fry the hell out of any Eldar sorceror...

 

Or think of Dark Eldar. Imagine you started with them when the last codex came out four-thousand years ago? You'd be waiting until now for up-to-date rules and new stuff.

 

Somewhere down the road, there must have been a reason why you started playing Chaos. Remember it before you start crying about other kid's toys...

[the jeske]

The Chaos codex has some very unique and very cool units and characters that can be very effective if used correctly.

yes they are so unique and special , that we end up with 2 builds and one fringe list . thats like totally awesome . specially considering that back in the day people really liked to play with something else then black legion .

as the HQ goes we have .

 

lash prince

nothing

nothing

nothing

nurgle prince

nothing

other dps wihout lash

nothing

sorc

nothing

everything else

khorn lord with demon weapons

There are the oldest race and have practised warp-magic for a longer time than anyone else, and as far as I understand it, both Ahriman and Tigurius can simply fry the hell out of any Eldar sorceror...

you mean out of eldrad , the man with the most anoying special rule ever? no one plays ahriman because he sucks for the points he costs and almost non one uses tigirius because for the points he costs he aint good enough and doesnt fit in to any build while other specials buff whole armies[vulkan/khan/pedro]. Eldrad on the other hand works in any eldar army always and always with superb resoults.

the eldar players feel great , unlike nids who had their army nerfed in to unplayable or necrons who have one build for every points played and even then they get tabled 99% of time.

 

 

Somewhere down the road, there must have been a reason why you started playing Chaos.

yes chambers doing 2ed dex . unique armies , many builds and many different ways to play[gunline , assault , demon bomb , inflitration armies , mix of those builds etc] . all that is gone now .

[Razhbad]

Eldrad on the other hand works in any eldar army always and always with superb resoults.

the eldar players feel great

 

As my main Army is Eldar i wholeheartedly agree with this statement, i love my special characters.

[the jeske]

forgot that the name of that eye guy he is good too , even if not played by everyone like eldrad.

[Dràyhèn]

Abbadon the Warmaster of Chaos who's powers have been described as being primarch level and has the backing of all the Chaos Gods is weaker than Calgar.

Wait, I won't sign that one.

I happened to have a duel with Abaddon against that Ultramar posterboy, and I can tell ya that our Abby sliced, hacked and smashed that Marney boy in two!

Yeah, overkill, he didn't stand a chance.

 

Yeah, I know, I should've read all posts first... his combat prowess is still second to none, well maybe some Nightbringer, but he is a god

[cathar the great]

I won't argue about gaming issues with you jeske as that is a waste of time.

 

But I do think that the majority of players are not powergamers and don't play in so many tourneys like you do, and are free to experiment with their lists and units once in a while.

 

And for that, the Chaos codex offers as much possibilities as the Space Marine codex.

 

Plus, I think our special characters have a lot more to them than the bestest coolest uberest faceless heroes of the Astartes...

[the jeske]

I wasnt talking about tournaments , there you dont care about what army you play as long as your team wins and gets the prizes/cash .

 

And for that, the Chaos codex offers as much possibilities as the Space Marine codex.

out of the sm codex[and am going to only count the working lists] you can make a khan list , a pedro list , a mecha list with normal sm no specials [gasp] , the 1500 pts inflitarion list with sicarius , the vulkan list , a land raider rush build +anything that is fluffy and not working [calgar/lysander etc]. all those lists are played in a different way have different good and bad sides are more or less good for tournaments .

 

out of chaos you get the short range builf with csm , the same list only with pms [game/play wise its the same list] , you got khorn only without rhino rush its like playing csm that go hth [against almost no difference in tactics] , the LR rush build [again same unit same tactics only no oblits ] and chaoszilla . you cant build a fluffy force because its either impossible [ EC to name one example] or it just doesnt work [like 1ksons , trying to make a NL list with bikes] or even worse the list looks just the same like a run of a mill BL list . even my NM water list is more or less the same as a BL chaos list with the difference of working at 18" range and not 12".

 

Plus, I think our special characters have a lot more to them than the bestest coolest uberest faceless heroes of the Astartes...

ok . but why do you think that chaos sm special characters are better[and I dont mean gamewise] then the sm ones. Playing khan lets you make a WS army not just a sm army on bikes , same with pedro and vulkan . how does lucius make an army list look more EC , other then just by being the only EC character you can pick ?

[chillin]

Sorry, but I'm growing sick and tired about the never-ending ramblings about how other codices are better than one's own, that they have better toys and better units and cooler characters.

 

I even reread all the post Cathar, no one has said any of that stuff.

Our SC are expensive, that is a fact.

Our SC do not offer benefits to the army as a whole or even the squad they are with, that is a fact.

No one in this thread said another codex was "better".

No one has said other armies have better toys.

No one has said other armies have better units (how could they ?)

And no one even said chaos character weren't "cool". Most agree that they are powerful 1 on 1 fighters.

You are supposedly "sick and tired" of a bunch of stuff no one has brought up in this thread (OK rereading them again 1 post kinda does, but "sick and tired of never-ending ramblings" is a pretty overly dramatic way to describe this conversation.

Truth is most competitive (even in friendly play or w/fluffy armies) csm players do not use SC, while many if not most s/m armies do contain SC's. That should tell a logical person something about chaos and s/m special characters even if they didn't know much else about the game.

It of course, sz nothing about other units or other HQ's, toys, or the codex or how powerful the army is as a whole.

[cathar the great]

I was not only referring to this thread. Look around on the board, there are countless topics about wanting stuff from other codices.

 

It's just that underlying problem that many people will never be happy with what they get.

 

I agree that compared to the last codex, there are much less choices and tactics, but complaining about the current one won't make it better.

 

EDIT: and it's not like I did not post a possible solution for this particular problem. It's called Counts-As. If you want Space Marine characters, play your Chaos minis as normal Space Marines.

[Sons of Horus]

I want Legion specific dexes :wub:

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I was not only referring to this thread. Look around on the board, there are countless topics about wanting stuff from other codices.

 

It's just that underlying problem that many people will never be happy with what they get.

 

I agree that compared to the last codex, there are much less choices and tactics, but complaining about the current one won't make it better.

 

EDIT: and it's not like I did not post a possible solution for this particular problem. It's called Counts-As. If you want Space Marine characters, play your Chaos minis as normal Space Marines.

 

You completely overreacted to this thread. This thread isn't about our codex vs the loyalist codex. It is about the power of chaos characters not being accurately reflected by their rules as compared to loyalist special characters and how this is dumb. Nobody said anything about wanting to use the loyalist codex. Now, your knee-jerk reaction has taken this way off topic, so lets forget about it and return to the original topic.

[LuNCHBiZZLe]

I'm with the majority on this one our SC are underpowered but once again as chillin said the Chaos codex comes out at the ass end of the current edition and after the new rule book is put out the other codexes are tweeked to make up for universal special rules and other changes.When chaos gets a new codex(in 2-3 years) most other armies will have had there 5th ED codex for a good while and we will be back in the playing field with SC that have army buffs and special lists/whatnot.Look at SM the first true 5th ed codex and it will show what is to come for the new edition SC that grant select lists and army traits.This is what we will be seeing for the years to come and as a chaos player since the ass end of 2nd ed I will always play chaos threw thick and thin.Just watch theres gonna be a sad look on SM players faces when the next C:SM codex comes out count on it.

[chillin]

I was not only referring to this thread. Look around on the board, there are countless topics about wanting stuff from other codices.

 

It's just that underlying problem that many people will never be happy with what they get.

 

but complaining about the current one won't make it better.

 

I can't argue w/ any of that

[Gman]

Just another problem with our current codex. Our specials are just dumb. Hell, Tigurius, a 400 year old librarian is significantly stronger than Ahriman who is ten thousand years old and is supposed to be the strongest sorcerer below Magnus the Red.

 

Abbadon the Warmaster of Chaos who's powers have been described as being primarch level and has the backing of all the Chaos Gods is weaker than Calgar.

 

Other than Mortrarion, Typhus is the most powerful follower of Nurgle, who is the god of making things hard to kill. And yet Lysander is harder to kill, just because he's stubborn and grim. Right.

 

 

I agree with this except for the Abaddon vs Calgar thing. I'd put my money on Abaddon any day, in an arena battle vs Calgar. Calgar was made stupid with Init 1 on his fists. I think our best SC is Abaddon, although I've heard Typhus does awesome as well, I have not played him. I have played Abaddon several times and he just brings stuff down like no one can. One game he tore down 2 carnifex singlehanded, one per turn. Then got into a squad and tore them up something fearce down to one wound. Kharne seems pretty good, and while joined to some zerkers has performed well, but still pricey for what you get.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head though about how our character don't give anything to the army, or even squad, unlike their Imperial counterparts. I think it would be awesome and appropriate for them to do so. Even to have them add something to a unit of their cult would be stupendus, especially for their cost. Drop them in a unit of their cult and give an appropriate cult bonus to the entire unit. Imagine a unit of Tzeetch joined by Ahriman, with a 3+/4+, plaguebearers joined by Typhus with a T6.

[Battle Brother Loken]

I play 2 armys

Necrons (main)

and Chaos which i have played from fantasy to 40k for about 3 years (only been in the hobby for 4 years)

and i must say that everyone who complains about chaos has never taken Necrons against Chaos

maybe its just my luck but i get destroyed in a couple turns

so if you say "My codex sucks" i say atleast you dont have WBB rule

:D ;)

[Citizen Snips]

I think every special character overall needs re workings. Too many of these guys fluff wise are just massive brick :P houses that rip apart worlds alone, but all around suck in tabletop. Khârn, Typhus, Ahriman are all one rank below there legions primarch, yet can be face murdered by one loan champions power fist.

 

To me, every special character in the codex needs eternal warrior and better special rules. For instance, Ahriman and Tigurious should ignore the negative effects from an Eldars Farseer since they are much more gifted with psychic powers. Or Typhus using the old terminator wound system where you take a wound with 2 dice and get rid of the lowest one for armor. The way it stands, most special characters have one turn to do their little trick before they get killed.