Equiping Grey Knight Terminators

[Terminus]

I know the current meta for Marines seems to favor THSS Terminators with Kantor, Shriike and/or Vulcan, but I have seven of the old school GK terminators, and I'd love to use the models. I figure eventually for Apocalypse/large games I'll get another pair of GKTs and Stern for a nice, full squad of 10.

 

I'm primarily thinking of using them with a count-as-Kassaro Khan. With furious charge, that's a lot of WS5 I5 S7 power weapon attacks! Combined with Khan's own beat-down and all the stormbolter shots, this unit should be able to destroy pretty much anything. With hit and run, they can ensure they don't get stuck and can use their furious charge more often, plus capitalize on Shrouding to kill a bunch of stuff and then retreat where they can't shoot you effectively.

 

So how do people equip their GKTs? How many do you use?

 

And what about special weapons? The incinerator is all kinds of sexy, and actually reasonably affordable at 15 points, but it does suffer from a somewhat short range (although they are an assaulting unit, so I guess it doesn't matter). The psycannon is cool too, but man does it drive up the cost of an already very expensive unit.

 

Finally, what about the Brother-Captain? He's responsible for a significant chunk of the GKT premium over regular terminators, so is any of that crap actually worth using? I can see a use for the psychic hood with a Ld10 character if I don't have a librarian tagging along. Nothing else particularly thrills me. Do you give him a special weapon? 20 points for an incinerator and 30 for a psycannon is harsh! That's the better part of another GKT.

[Aidoneus]

If you want an assault unit, I'd suggest 8 total in a Crusader or Redeemer. That'll get them where they need to be, and protect them on the way. In fact, I don't even think you need that many models, as they are incredibly pricey. Perhaps Khan+5-6 GKTs would suffice.

 

Incinerator is nice, but I run into trouble sometimes eliminating enough enemies that he can keep me out of assault by removing all the models within charge range. It's up to you, but I certainly don't think the unit needs it.

 

The BC isn't that much more expensive than a GKT. I usually take a BC with psycannon, but then again I usually have him wiht only 3 other GKT (with 1 more psycannon) as a long-range mobile firebase. In assault, I typically take a Grand Master, for that I5 S6 Force Weapon (that "kills outright," rather than "causes instant death," so will work on eternal warriors). However, with your Khan there, I don't think you'll need the GM, and taking the BC instead will keep your points cost reasonable.

 

The psychic hood is nice, since it works on the whole field, not just within 24". It depends on your metagame though, and how many psychic powers people use against you. Personal preference here. Keep in mind though, the GKT unit itself benefits from a pseudo-psychic hood, albeit one that only works against powers that specifically target that squad.

[Uncle Mel]

I am experimenting with large HQ units in 2500 pts battles. Here is my loadout:

 

GKGM, master crafted NFW, UoW, Icon of the Just, Hammerhand

7 GKT, Incinerator, 2 TH/SS

 

In a Crusader

 

That equals 800 pts dead on but it kicks a hell of a punch.

[revnow]

Depending on the Point level I usually run a GM w/ psychic hood, sacred incense (an absolute must in the current meta game), and sometimes a Grimoire if I think I'm going to be seeing a ton of Daemons/Princes.

 

As far a the squad goes, it depends on what you want to do with them. As a firebase, the general rule is BC+2GKT+2 psycannons. For what you're looking at, I'm preferable to carrying along an incinerator.

 

I've found that what Aidoneus is talking about is more common with PAGKs than GKTs. The reason is target selection. Ideally, GKTs aren't going to be used against weaker infantry. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it just comes down to assaulting a Trukk boy squad, Gaunt mob, or IG squad, but more often than not, the opportunity cost of doing so is prohibitively high. Generally, you're using the squad to take out multi-wound heavy hitters or things with an armor save better than +4. In these circumstances the Incinerator is ideal. Against the multi-wound heavy hitters (nob squads of any type, bloodcrushers, etc. . .) the incinerator helps put supporting wounds on the target of assault. While a GKT squad can put out an impressive number of wounds, that ability diminishes as the target's WS and T become comparable to the GKTs WS and S, a fairly common occurrence in assault type multi-wound models. The best way to mitigate this is to use the incinerator and storm bolters to maximum effect in order to load up the target squad on potential saves, and therefore supportive wounds. This will make the assault more effective and reduce the potential amount of return damage. The same applies against units with a 3+ armor save or better. You want your opponent to be rolling more dice on that armor, not less. Increasing the potential of tabling an entire squad is especially important with space marines because of ATSKNF. Potentially removing the addition 1-3 MEQs as a result of a good incinerator hit pays off in the reduced likelihood of having to take I1 attacks back from a Pfist, or face shooting the following turn from the escaped remnant of the squad.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh! This is interesting! :)

 

When I looked over how to use the new SM ICs to boost my GKT, I got fixated on Infiltrating a Squad of GKT with Shrike. I never even considered Khan.

 

Question then. Which of the SM ICs (and I suppose IG?) would best compliment a Squad of GKT?

 

Is there anyone better than Khan? Lysander would give Bolter Drill (reroll failed SB shots) and Kantor +1A.

 

Anything else?

 

(Can't wait to try unloading a Squad of GKT from a LRC with Khan. I5 S7 Power Weapons! Take that Chaos Daemons! :)

 

Edit: I've grown to use my GKT for Psycannons, as they are too good to pass up, but cost to much on a PAGK (if you include losing the NFW along with the point cost of the upgrade itself...)

[Thaelion Hexis]

Would Marine special character abilities actually affect Grey Knight units? I don't play Marines, but using ones rules to boost a completely different army seems iffy.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

I probably run them differently from many of you on the forum as I don't take the TH/SS until I get 5 or more. I find I get more mileage out of S6 Power Weapons striking at initiative, versus the hammer, which will strike last the first turn, but potentially cause a multi wound model to strike last in later rounds. You are left removing non TH models, which can potentially hurt you on subsequent rounds since regardless of hitting models, you and the enemy are striking at I 1 in the next round.

 

I will try and stay away from large units of multi wound models with the Termies - I think there are better ways to counter them, as their sheer numbers of attacks (regardless of Initiative) will eventually wear you down. They are great to mop up a softened unit of multi-wounders, but making that their mission doesn't seem to be a good application unless your group has numerical superiority...

 

I do like to send them up against single MCs (if I am running a GM since I am counting on the NFW to remove the model) or try to apply them to MEQs or better. Tackling large horde groups generally hasn't come out bad for me (moreso if they are terrible in CC: WS3, I3, T3 or a combination) as you can usually force the break check. But you do have to be deliberate in your analysis before you do this.

[jeffersonian000]

I've been fielding a small unit of 5 GKT with 2 psycannons at 300pts, and using them as a fire base if I need shooting and an assault force if I need close combat. The general performance has been soft, with me shying away from deep striking due to the loss of assault on the arriving turn causing this unit to become a fire magnet. These days they ride in comfort in a Crusader, or just sit and fire from a vital spot I need to hold.

 

SJ

[Terminus]

Has that configuration been working for you? It seems very expensive just for some stormbolters and S6 AP4 shots. The min-sized squad with two psycannons is 254 points. That's a lot of points for relatively little firepower. Those same 254 points can buy 6 sternguard with 2 plasma cannons, 2 combi-plasmas, and a dedicated Razorback with TLLC. Seems like a much better use of the points.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, I tend to play pure GK and run that squad as my HQ, or when I play a combined Ordos list (SM parent list with allied GK and SoB) I use them as an elite choice to represent the Ordo Malleus. Either way 300pts is easier to fit other stuff around for me.

 

As to game play, I'm not overly pleased by their performance to date, given how ineffective psycannons are (heavy bolters are pretty much crap for me too), given the high overall AP means virtually everyone I play against gets a save. In combat they've been a tar-pit, and little else. So yeah, they are not much to right home about so far. I'm thinking about beefing them up to 8 strong, swapping the psycannons for incinerators, and just charging them out of a Crusader. Or not.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Would Marine special character abilities actually affect Grey Knight units? I don't play Marines, but using ones rules to boost a completely different army seems iffy.

 

Chapter Tactics won't (Being Space Marines, I wonder if when the GK get redone they also have the Chapter Tactics rule, which would then be interesting! lol!), but most of the SM ICs have natural bonuses they give to any unit they've joined, that aren't part of thier Chapter Tactics. Like Lysander and Khan. Kantors works for any friendly mini within a range of him.

 

Same deal with the IG (But I've not seen the new 'Dex yet, so only going by rumours that thier ICs give thing slike Furious Charge etc).

 

As to game play, I'm not overly pleased by their performance to date, given how ineffective psycannons are

 

I agree my GKT have poor performance. They only really shine when they're Power Weaponing Marines to Death. But SS/SLC SW Termies do a much better Job of that!

 

However, Psycannons I've found to be amazing! :)

 

Edit:

 

Hammerhand and Khan.

 

Mmmmm GKBC having S9 on the charge with an additional Close Combat Attack.

[number6]

I've been running a BC-led HQ unit exactly like Jeffersonian's (5 models total, 2 psycannons, 300 pts cost total outlay) for close on three years now almost each and every game. Unlike him, I have been extremely pleased with their performance. 6 mobile S6 shots from range, extremely resilient and difficult to scrape off because of the shrouding and terminator armour ... yes, please! I rarely run these guys solo, they're nearly always supporting/supported by some other footslogging GKs, or using my dreads or land raiders to provide cover (or block line of sight entirely). I admit that my power-armoured GKs see a lot more close combat action than my GKTs, but it is a rare game where I don't have an opportunity to throw these boys into a vital scrap.

 

I never use them as the spearhead of an assault. (Of course, I don't play my army as an assault force, either. Every unit has to fit that philosophy. GKTs as pure assault don't, so that's not how I use them.) Rather, they are a counter-assault unit in my playstyle, and in that role they truly shine.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I run a similar unit of GKT's (5 termies, 2 psycannons) only I took advantage of a rules wording quirk of the Codex to give the Brother Captain of my Elites choice Terminator unit a free Thunder Hammer.

 

The wording of the Codex states any model of a Terminators unit may exchange his Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter for a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. I did this on the Brother Captain, then bought his Psycannon from the armory, losing the Storm Shield.

 

What this does is gives me the two Psycannons for range attacks along with the three Storm Bolters, however once in combat I have the Thunder Hammer (with the improved Brother Captain number of attacks) to hit at Strength 8 in addition to a slew of initiative order Strength 6 attacks. With newer wound allocation rules I can usually avoid making too many saves on the Brother Captain, and he also becomes an anti-vehicle threat with the increased Strength from the Thunder Hammer and the fact all melee now against Vehicles is against rear armor.

 

I've been pretty happy with this setup. Modelwise I used the Thunder Hammer/Daemon Hammer from um.. Inquisitor Corteaz on the BC Stern Model.. with an arm swap for the GK Psycannon arm. It's worked really well!

 

Edit: One other reason this works well is having a Thunder Hammer means no additional attacks for a second weapon, however the True Grit wording denies this attack to Termies, so I don't feel like I lose anything by giving him a psycannon instead of say, a pistol or something. It works well and I don't mentally feel like I lost out in the same fashion as if he were a regular Space Marine model.

[jeffersonian000]

I agree with Number6. My issue with them has more to do with my average opponent than with the build itself. Virtually every game I play is versus Marines or an equivalent (i.e., Crisis heavy Tau). I'm finding that Stormbolters are a better killer than any other weapon in my arsenal, due to weight of fire rather than High Strength/Low AP range attacks. Incinerator/Psycannon/Assault Cannon/Heavy Bolter wounds I inflict almost always end up getting saved by armour (AP4 vs. 3+ save), while my lascannon shots tend to either get saved via cover (damn you, 4+ save!) or negated due to poor die rolls on my part (shaking a Land Speeder’s crew 5 times in row). Close combat, when its occurs, tends to be long and drawn out due to having to go against units that are either equal to or better than my GK’s (WS5 isn’t worth overly much versus half again as many counter-attacks).

 

This in no way shacks my faith in my GK’s; it simply adds to the challenge of the game. Also, I’ve only lost with them once (Tyranids), drawn twice (Marines and Tau), and have won all other games vs. Marines and Eldar. I have yet to play against Chaos, Ork, or Guard, so my experiences are a bit narrowed by options available.

 

SJ

 

PS - I'm haven't modeled Thunderhammers yet, so I've no data to add on that account.

[Gentlemanloser]

WS5 isn’t worth overly much versus half again as many counter-attacks

 

This is one of the problems I have with PAGK in Assault. S6 is great and all, but I'm now finding that because of True Grit, many other units are able to get more attacks (if only on the charge) than the 2 I can only ever get on my PAGK, which along with Fearless is starting to make my precious PAGK fall hard in Assault.

 

I'm starting to wish I didn't have True Grit, but had a Bolt Pistol to go with my NFW instead.

 

That or defensive Grenades.

[Terminus]

I agree with Number6. My issue with them has more to do with my average opponent than with the build itself. Virtually every game I play is versus Marines or an equivalent (i.e., Crisis heavy Tau). I'm finding that Stormbolters are a better killer than any other weapon in my arsenal, due to weight of fire rather than High Strength/Low AP range attacks. Incinerator/Psycannon/Assault Cannon/Heavy Bolter wounds I inflict almost always end up getting saved by armour (AP4 vs. 3+ save), while my lascannon shots tend to either get saved via cover (damn you, 4+ save!) or negated due to poor die rolls on my part (shaking a Land Speeder’s crew 5 times in row). Close combat, when its occurs, tends to be long and drawn out due to having to go against units that are either equal to or better than my GK’s (WS5 isn’t worth overly much versus half again as many counter-attacks).

Doesn't an incinerator generate far more armor saves than a storm bolter?

[Karitas]

I'm confused, dosent a psycannon have better Str and AP that a Storm Bolter, with 1 more attack?

[gil galed]

I'm confused, dosent a psycannon have better Str and AP that a Storm Bolter, with 1 more attack?

 

yeh but it also costs valuable points and if it isn't against ap4 then ultimately is it worth those points?

[Secondwind]

Ok in my mind current edition psycannons are overpriced but even so they have alot of uses. A 6 man PAGK squad sitting on home objective with 2x psycannons makes the most of coversaves, shrouding and long range firepower and has 3 wounds buffering which an opponent has to kill through to deny a scoring unit. -This is probably the best use i can see for psycannons in PAGK.

 

Terminators moving and shooting will always make use of a psycannon if footslogging it, though the incinerator has as much utility or more when used with a transport.

 

Now on PAGK you are indeed loosing abilities with both the psycannon / incinerator which is why most GK players consider them overcosted, however depending on how you utilise them they can be worth their points.

Most people agree that an incinerator will generate ALOT of wounds on most squad types and the higher str / cancelling invuln very useful. If against MEQ incinerators tend to pack alot of wounds and force alot of saves their downside is that unless transported you will be sacrificing 2-6 stormbolter shots which could potentially kill more. Against anything T4 and with a 4+ save you will pretty much be rolling to kill on 3+ with very few things being able to effectively counter your assault after such sudden strike.

Now in footslogging PAGK Psycannons s6 is useful but sadly requires you to stay stationary to make the most of it as optimum range of stormbolters is 19-24' which typically requires you to move if you want to use them it does seem slightly counter productive.

The extra flexibility they give is still good however if you can utilise it. The ability to use shrouding more, a more reliable weapon to hurt tougher models like MC without sacrificing models in combat not to mention popping vehicles exposed side/ back armour or even certain transports front armour.

 

I personally tend to make mini-purgation squads as said above, keep them on terminators and tend to avoid them in my "moving stormbolter block of PAGK". That reasoning is mainly because if i aint using it then I'd be better off with an extra boot on the table though it comes down to personal playstyle this one imo.

 

 

 

P.S. To summarise incinerators are used for auto hit template, AP4 is great vs hordes when coupled with S5.

Psycannons main strengths are 36inch range and high str 6 the ap4 is just gravy.

[DevianID]

Someone asked about GKT as allies, and which HQ they work best with. I think it is Brother Tual with the inspired use of Khan on foot + 5 GKT in a redeemer who basicly put it best--I will restate some of his reasons but I recomend you read up on his articles.

 

So, why GKT over astartes termies? Well, GKT are WS5, so they will generate more hits versus the prime metagame WS of 4 than marine equivs, so you dont need a chappy around to earn the required hits. Second, they maintain their initiative AND higher strength, while THSS go to init 1 and 2LC termies are stuck at a meer st4 most of the time. Finally, with Sacred Incense AND furious assault from Khan, they will strike at the same time as slanesh models and before pretty much anything else, and because daemons must roll difficult terrain to charge grey knights, any daemon assaulting the GKT will be at init1 if they dont have grenades--meaning you can survive an encounter with bloodletters, or even a blood thirster on a good day.

 

As for what HQ goes best with GKT, keep in mind that unless you simply want to play GKT no matter what then you need to maximize the GKTs advantages over the otherwise superior 2LC, THSS, or Dual Cyclone builds. So Khan keeps, and enhances, the higher S and I of the GKT so they are better than marine equivs, and with hit and run you can make up for the lower durability when compared to THSS termies by letting you continue to use your assault weapons furious assault, even on the same enemy unit, by running on their turn and shooting+assaulting on yours.

 

Thus in the end, while Kantor buffs GKT, he would equally buff ANY termies. Vulkan only buffs certian termies (those with thunderhammers) and GKT with hammers are very inferior to THSS termies with the 3++. Shrike can infiltrate with GKT, but cant give them fleet, so again some of his abilities are wasted. Lysander can use bolter drill on the storm bolters of GKT, but the storm bolters are one of the weakest components to buff for GKTs--bolter drill is better served on sternguard bolters.

 

My build with GKTs that has been pretty good in the past few games is Grandmaster HQ with 4 GKT ret, 1 with THSS, 1 with Incin, and 2 regulars. The THSS is meh, but can be a great fall guy for wound allocation! I also always pushed aside the Grandmaster for a cheaper Brocap, but with retinue wound allocation his 3 wounds have beed phenominal. I dont believe in psycannons; I basicly see no valid metagame reason to use them other than to kill Kairos Fateweaver, and the incin can still hurt him.

[Thaelion Hexis]

My GKT are simple enough. GM/BC with Psycannon (depending on points), 3 GKT with Psycannon.

 

I think that the two Psycannons are pretty much gospel with this unit.

[jeffersonian000]

Yes, I concur that Incinerators will generate on average more saves when in conjunction with stormbolters than just the stormbolters alone; however, more saves does not equal more deaths versus a 3+ save or better in an actual game (Warhammer vs. Theoryhammer). 18" or better does increase the chances of unsaved wounds over a longer period than a one turn wound-spike followed by a charge. Once in close combat, I'm finding that my GK's are now effectively out of the game, and while they neutralize at least one other unit for the duration, I'm still down one of my units for the duration. Functionally, I cannot rely on my GK's tying up more than one unit in a given assault phase. If so, awesome! If not, then I'm the one that will be on the wrong side of the "kill gap" unless I can reduce my targets numbers to a point that close combat will last no longer than to the end of my opponents close combat phase. If it last into my turn or I end it in my turn, my guys are screwed.

 

And again, I'm not knocking the effectiveness of Psycannons, just that against MEQ's the AP 4 does not really allow the Str 6 to shine as much as theory would have it. Versus a 4+ save or worst, they are worth their points. Versus a 3+ save or better, weight of fire seems to be having more of an effect than high Strength fire (i.e., I've killed more terminators with botler runs that with any other attack in my arsenal, to date).

 

I play versus MEQ in 90% of my games, with a very good win record. I'm just noting that where my guys will tend to tie is versus MEQ's that weather my fire and hit back in CC better than I do (i.e., any assault oriented MEQ). Tyranids are a different story, as they hold my only loss so far, and that was more due to my errors than to force composition.

 

SJ

[Terminus]

Well, gospel or not, I hesitate on spending 50 points on 6 S6 AP4 shots, considering I'll usually be firing them into a squad I plan on assaulting with 5 WS6 S5 I6 attacks that decapitate on 6s, and at least 15 WS5 S7 I5 power weapon attacks. I think I rather spend those points on another GKT for another 3 attacks.

 

@DevianID: I like that configuration. Just 15 points for an incinerator is cheap enough for me to stomach. Do you give your grandmaster anything except Sacred Incense? And can you elaborate on the multiple wounds and allocation? Personally, with Khan along, I don't feel the need for a grandmaster, especially since I need that second HQ slot for Kantor. :D GKTs with furious charge and three attacks base are awesome.

[DevianID]

Well with the Grandmaster, what points you have left is what can go into wargear. A stormshield, using the odd rules in DH that grant an extra attack to the nemesis force weapon, is usually my first expendature for only 10 points, assuming you can use the SS in your group that way. Then its sacred incense for another 10, or a psychic hood for 20. I usually wont do both, as he needs to stay fairly cheap--and there is nothing wrong with no wargear at all on him.

 

For wound allocation, the grand master and khan can both take the brunt of any shooting attacks that do not cause instant death, or ensure that they survive a round of shooting, depending on the need. If hit by 14 plasma cannon wounds, for example, from oblits firing after a successful lash, Khan can take 2, the GM can take 2, 3 can go on the incin, 3 can go on the THSS, and 4 can go on the regular guys--while you may lose most/all of the GKT squad, you will definately keep the Khan+GKGM combo for your turn comming up. If it was a brother captain+2 more friends in place of the GM, though, then you would most likely be left with just Khan at the end of the shooting, unless the bro captain makes his 5+ save (he never does for me).

 

Edit: If you are taking Pedro+Khan, I think you would be better served with a different unit than GKT in a game smaller than 1850. The points you pay for Pedro give you only 5 attacks more in the GKT... now dont get me wrong, Pedro is really really good, but if you want a second codex marine HQ, the libby with null zone and might, for only 100 points, brings more to the table in a metagame match. Null zone eats daemons and will easily give you the extra wounds that would otherwise be saved by enemy units with invuln saves (THSS termies fear null zone). Thus I would recomend taking either Pedro or Khan and building a list around them completely, with a complimentary HQ like a marine libby or grey knight grand master.