Take another look at Long Fangs

[Megalodon]

Alright I’ve got to be honest I’m tired of seeing these grizzled veterans getting no respect. I’m going to offer up a little insight to help you understand why I think they still have a place in any SW army.

 

In 5th ed they are a solid choice if deployed properly. They should always be deployed in cover with at least two lanes of fire. Taking full advantage of the cover saves and split fire rules. I can’t possibly be the only vet player to figure this out.

 

At range Long Fangs are more survivable than most tanks and cannot be destroyed by one lucky shot. The only thing tanks have as an advantage over Fangs is maneuverability, but well deployed Fangs won’t need to worry about moving.

 

Give your opponent other threats to shoot at. Misdirection is a great way to keep the heat off your Fangs. I prefer to make it something fast that can be in his face at any time.

 

Keep them relatively cheap; with 5 models at or around 200 points which is cheap for Fangs. Avoid the urge to pay much more than 200 points because then they start to become a point sink. I think this is part of the reason most have written them off.

 

Four Fangs armed with Missile Launchers are a solid choice. They come in at 189 points and work against armor and hordes equally well.

 

I hope everyone who reads this gives Fangs another look.

[barek]

Sir yessir! :)

 

(Funny: I'm painting them right now: 3 ml, 1 lc, 'pack leader)

[dragon950]

I always use 1 or 2 squads depending on the points in games. Usually have lascannons and heavy bolter, but also use missile launchers and plasma cannons depending on how I feel.

[clanfield]

same here but i use 2 ml 2 las,i also use a screen of grey hunters on ocasion

[Darkseer]

I think its the 36pt pack leader that makes them overpriced.

[Grey Mage]

Meh, hes not so bad. Only a point more than the lascannon lol.

 

I run a five man squad, two ML two LC... I find it does pretty well when I need it. But funny thing is I really only bring it to tournaments- the guys I play with normally dont throw down enough armor for me to worry about it enough to bring my longfangs. While I could throw down some heavybolter/ML.... I dont have the heavy bolter guys made yet, still on sprue you see. *wince*.

[Megalodon]

AH yes, the good ol' pack leader! I'll agree he is a bit pricey but well worth it for what he allows the pack to do in my opinion.

 

I've also going so far as to model my new Fangs to be too damn cool to leave off the table. Check out my Plog if you're curious.

[Darkseer]

Obviously I'm going to get some for completeness. But when the lascannon has been overshadowed by the AP1 power of the multimelta and melta gun in 5th edition (which are now commonly mounted on bikes and speeders), long ranged anti-tank seems to lack the punch it once had. :cuss

[Grey Mage]

Obviously I'm going to get some for completeness. But when the lascannon has been overshadowed by the AP1 power of the multimelta and melta gun in 5th edition (which are now commonly mounted on bikes and speeders), long ranged anti-tank seems to lack the punch it once had. :cuss

Eh, remember though its got 4x the range of the meltagun... wich you can only get on a bike is you want to deal with BS 3..... And theyre worse at making the hit count until your within 12-6" *depending on type, wich means that the Lascannon is better at killing tanks for 50% its range because the MM cant do it, equal at 25% as +1 to pen and +1 to kill are about the same for improving odds... though you could argue that penetrating adds+2 and so is worth more, and then worse at 25% of the range as the MM gets 2d6 and AP 1.

 

Another point being that if you go down to the inquisition board and look at their armylists- MMs are considered to be a waste of a heavy weapons squad, expensive *same price as ours* and just to lacking in range to be worthwhile.

 

I like MMs on bikes, speeders, and a LR. But if I want to take out an enemy vindicator or defiler first turn Im counting on a Predator Annihilator and/or Long Fangs.

[Ryzouken]

At range Long Fangs are more survivable than most tanks and cannot be destroyed by one lucky shot. The only thing tanks have as an advantage over Fangs is maneuverability, but well deployed Fangs won’t need to worry about moving.

 

Give your opponent other threats to shoot at. Misdirection is a great way to keep the heat off your Fangs. I prefer to make it something fast that can be in his face at any time.

 

Keep them relatively cheap; with 5 models at or around 200 points which is cheap for Fangs. Avoid the urge to pay much more than 200 points because then they start to become a point sink. I think this is part of the reason most have written them off.

 

I disagree with these three points you've made. Long Fangs, due to their status as infantry, are less resilient than a tank (or tanks) of similar point value. This is due to their vulnerability to small arms fire. Str 4-5 or so can't scratch the armor on most tanks, but find easy purchase on the scant handful of wounds a Long Fang squad possesses. This failing is compounded by their excessive point cost, a fact that is underscored when one considers the going rate of a Predator. A twin Lascannon, Turret Autocannon Pred is 120 points. The cheapest outfit a Long Fang unit can carry two lascannons at is 142 points. 22 points for something that a tactical squad can remove at range (possibly in a single turn if unlucky with your ld test) on average dice.

 

On the subject of other threats, due to the high cost of our Wolves, we simply don't have all that many targets to shoot at, most the time. 200 points is 10% of a 2k list (which is a large game of 40k). That means you'll get around 9 other targets for an enemy to shoot at if your units stay toward that same value (and they will. My troops units tend to revolve around the 190 pt mark). Not that many targets, and when one is a unit of Fangs with 4 heavy weapons and not too many wounds?

Guard can drop a single pie plate on them and laugh.

Orks can do the same, or turboboost their bikes up in your face, or outflank with Snikrot...

Marines will drop a unit right next to them and wash them away.

The number of answers for a small unit of infantry are just far, far too many.

 

These are the reasons I don't run Fangs. For their points, I'd rather run Land Raiders or Predators or Dreadnoughts. Any of which can carry just as many heavy weapons, can possibly still split fire, and are all more survivable when one considers the sizes of tables we play on and the number of Str 4 guns an average army fields.

[Megalodon]

That predator can be dropped with one Lascannon shot. Sure small arms can be a pain for the Fangs, but I didn't say they were the end all and be all, just that Fangs are viable.

 

In your opinion tanks are better, which is fine. Personally I like to have a little more variety than just tanks, of which most can be killed with some good shooting by turn two. So they vulnerable just in a different ways than the Fangs.

[Grey Mage]

Well another thing is target priority- after all if your staring at a unit of Long Fangs, a vindicator at 20" and a LRC full of bloodclaws.... the Two tanks will probly be more impossing to most people. Or if say I drop pod a 400pt unit of WGTDA down on your flank.... most people will have a "gut" reaction to the bigger looking scary thing closer to them.

 

That being said I find all our HS options have problems on a 4x8 Table, save the godhammer landraider.

[Vassakov]

Personally, I find the main problem of the Long Fangs - and this extends to Devastators as a whole - is that generally, a Tank can do the same job cheaper, and more effectively. Look at it this way, you're playing Orks. You can take 4 Long Fangs with HB's - that comes to 168pts. Or, you can take 2 Predators for 2 Points more. LF's = 12 HB shots, Predator = 12 HB shots + 4 Autocannon Shots. Both can split fire. Here's the key bit though - against say a squad of Lootas - 12 to balance the Points out, and assuming 2 on the D3 for their shots, vs the Predators they'll get 1 glance on average against 1 tank. Then at least one will be able to return fire.

 

Vs the Fangs, and thats 2.22 dead LF's - possibly, severely limiting their ability to return fire. This weakness to small and medium weapons grade fire is what makes the Fangs so vunerable - whereas AT weapons can be compensated for with canny tactics, the weakness of a LF squad to a good round of fire cannot be as easily dealt with.

[Beef]

Add on the fact that once the pack leader is dead you cant split fire ad there are not 5-6 extra ablative wounds that a codex 10 man dev squad would have. It suits the feel of the long fangs to have fewer numbers but game wise this is the main hinderance for me rather than points

[dragon950]

I'm sure that when, and if, our codex come out that the long fangs will have reducded point costs or extra abilities. Not to mention that our weapon costs should go down just like standard devastor weapons costs were lowered. Also with the Guard heavy weapons points lowered that helps reinforce that belief.

[lunchb0x]

I think Long fangs would be more useful if they had the option of not taking ALL heavy weapons...or at the very least the option to take special weapons in stead.

 

But for the points, and one wound your losing a heavy weapon...not really worth it in my mind...for that amount of points I can run two bare bones preds, or two razor backs with assault cannons. <_<

[Ryzouken]

If Long Fangs were two wound, I could see them competing for a slot.

If Long Fangs were cheaper, I could see them competing for a spot.

 

In my neck of the woods, Fangs die on turn 1, first time, every time. The land raiders I run rarely die, and the Vindicator I've run never died earlier than T4.

 

Another nail in the Fangs' coffin is their inability to move and fire. Tanks can (and do).

[clanfield]

comparing stats is one thing but surley the crunch is in the balance of the army if your list is balanced right,for example i prefure to run with more squads/troopers/units than haveing a smaller more equipt force i find long fangs are the last thing most enermys take down due to the other threats presented namely the assult units and mid field fire support and tank elements just athought

[Megalodon]

In my neck of the woods, Fangs die on turn 1, first time, every time.

 

I hear this all the time around the net, but have never had my Fangs die on turn one. I play against some of the tough standard tourney builds so it must be player skill. Either my opponents suck or I'm just a better player than they are.

[Grey Mage]

Agreed... never had fangs die faster than turn 3, and that was to shrouding necrontyr. But then theyre always in cover, and usually not on a flank. Maybe that helps.

[Grimmwulf]

I really really like Longfangs fluffwise, but I still only field them in apoc games. It is not that I think they are bad, but I just don't have the FoC places left. at 1000 pont games i rather take a pred, a vindi and a whirlwind or something like that because that long fangs are way too expensive for small games. When it is a larger game, a LRC is a must for me, so there is even more rush on the FoC slots.

 

The pros for tanks are in my opinion thatr they can deliver large templates against horde armies, they are targets for your opponents heavy weapons which gives my transports more survivability and they can't be locked in close combat. Long fangs on the other hand are less mobile (only somewhat with a razorback), are easy targets for long range anti infantry fire when all my other infantry models are inside transports at the start of the game and they can effecetively be taken out of the game by tying them up with mediocre combat units if you don't have something that sits back to assist them. I won't take part in the survivability debate, as that is a thing that is hard to compare. It depends on your opponents army, what exactly he is fielding, terrain setup and many other uncalculatable factors. Sure, a lucky lascannon shot can take out a pred but a lucky demolisher shot can take out all the lfs as well.

 

 

In apocalypse however they are great. There will mostly be things that are a lot scarier than a unit of LFs or two that your opponent will want to shoot at and they can deliver death like when they were young.

[lunchb0x]

I prefer to run razorbacks with grey hunter squads then long fangs...razorback with twin linked las/assault cannons and extra armour and hunter killer.

 

Pure win.

[the jeske]

And theyre worse at making the hit count until your within 12-6" *depending on type, wich means that the Lascannon is better at killing tanks for 50% its range because the MM cant do it, equal at 25% as +1 to pen and +1 to kill are about the same for improving odds... though you could argue that penetrating adds+2 and so is worth more, and then worse at 25% of the range as the MM gets 2d6 and AP 1.

considered that multi melta are only used on attack bikes [and this means that the range aint so small anymore + they are easier to hide behind rhinos or terrain unlike long fangs who have to be in plain sight or they wont shot anything] or in drop pod/deepstriking units [like sternguard /ironclad dreadnought/dreadnoughts/termicid] the range aint a problem . also as with drop pods you more or less chose the side you land on its far easier to negate the cover tanks may get form shots incoming from static long fangs.

[Keercrevlis]

I run them in most of my Lists. Using 2-LC, 2-ML....I bury them in a 4+ piece of cover, usually a building, and make sure they have at least 2 firing lanes. I alsp make sure to put a small squad of GH "around" them so it is harder for someone to assault them.

[dragon950]

Not saying that this is how they are going to be when we get redone, but lets say that they troops stayed about the same cost and the leader maybe went down in points. THen the heavy weapons were made equal to SM, but to show their long years of service all long fangs have tank hunter. Would people use them then?