Question regarding Dante and preferred enemy

[Legatus]

It is not at all complex. It is basic understanding of a statement that "units within 12" of Dante" does not include Dante himself. If you asked "how many units are within 12" of Dante?" you would explicitely NOT count Dante himself, but only the other units within the distance of him. Really simple.

[SeattleDV8]

Again, Dante is within 12" of himself...heh Nowhere in the rules excludes him.

This has been played this way for at least 10 years.

[Legatus]

People make mistakes. The rule does not include him. He is not classed as and would never be refered to as a unit friendly to himself and within 12" of himself.

 

"How many units are within 12" of Dante?"

 

"Well, there is one tactical squad and this assault squad. That's all."

 

Dante himself would not be included in that list of units. It is basic understanding of language and statements. If you look at what is around a certain object, you don't count the object itself.

[jake21]

Legatus here is the pdf. Read with an open mind

 

 

"Dante is renowned for personally

leading formations of Blood Angels Assault

Marines in unstoppable assaults. His

presence inspires these troops to acts of

valor that are extraordinary even for Space

Marines. As such, if Dante is included in a

Blood Angels army, then any friendly unit

of Blood Angels within 12" of him counts

its opponents as a preferred enemy" Since HE (Dante) is inspiring these troops to great feats how in the :) can he not have preferred enemy? Since HE(Dante) is GIVING(TO GIVE ONE MUST HAVE) the troops around them preferred enemy. This brothers basically falls down to common sense.

 

 

 

Not to mention I am new and have been reading these boards for about a year and love the blood angels. I have just painted my first Dante and DC with jump packs and would like for your guys and gals opinions.

 

 

 

For the Emperor and Sanguinius

[SeattleDV8]

Now ,now Legatus seems to love logic and a good debate. He can get a bit stubborn at times but haven't we all when discussing a game we love. He's totally wrong on this....LOL (in my opinion) but he does give the other side of the rule a good try.

This question has been asked on dakka-dakka and warseer. The general ruling has been Dante gets preferred enemy. (In fact Legatus has been the only poster to say he doesn't)

[Grey Mage]

I see what Legatus is saying and feel that he has a point... but it breaks down to semantics IMHO.

 

You could avoid these arguments *though Ill note Im in favor of him being in his own radius* be putting him in a VAS or an Honor Gaurd. Then hes part of a unit thats within 12" of him and would have to get the benefit.

[Souchan]

Now ,now Legatus is not a douche bag. He seems to love logic and a good debate. He can get a bit stubborn at times but haven't we all when discussing a game we love. He's totally wrong on this....LOL (in my opinion) but he does give the other side of the rule a good try.

This question has been asked on dakka-dakka and warseer. The general ruling has been Dante gets preferred enemy. (In fact Legatus has been the only poster to say he doesn't)

 

Actually if I had to take a final stance on it, I would agree Dante doesn't get it either, using a simply rules wise look, based on the measuring distance page 3(you measure base edge to base edge, adding credence to the donut theory^^ mmm, forbudden donut..*homers drool sound*) of the BRB and the wording of his rules with friendly units. I however wouldn't mind at all if an opponent wanted him to have it as well, as my feelings are that GW simply didn't specify enough. I'm just glad that in the new dexes they are finally specifying if the unit benefits from it's own aura or not now.

[Legatus]

It is a pretty clear statement, and it has to be interpreted in the correct manner. The rules describes a group of units that benefit from it's effect. Dante is not part of that group. There is no mental gymnastics involved, just a straight interpretation of the Statement.

 

Now on to some semantics. For the fun of it:

Since HE (Dante) is inspiring these troops to great feats how in the :D can he not have preferred enemy?

His PRESENCE is inspiring these troops. How can someone be inspired by his own presence?

 

"Man, I am so awesome, and I am taking part in this battle, with me. I am a legendary hero, and I am looking up to me. I am going to try extra hard to impress me."

 

Since HE(Dante) is GIVING(TO GIVE ONE MUST HAVE) the troops around them preferred enemy.

Since you quoted the rule yourself you can probably point out to me where it says that he GIVES. He "inspires". And units close to him "count".

 

If you are arguing by fluff, don't make up words that are not used. By fluff it is even more clear that Dante himself would not have any benefit from his own inspiring presence. He is not directing the Marines and showing them how it is done, they are not copying his moves or anything. He is a legendary Hero to them, and his presence inspires them to greater efforts.

[jake21]

To Legatus and everyone. I apologize for my comment. I was completely wasted last night.

Again sorry

[SKeeM]

It is not at all complex. It is basic understanding of a statement that "units within 12" of Dante" does not include Dante himself. If you asked "how many units are within 12" of Dante?" you would explicitely NOT count Dante himself, but only the other units within the distance of him. Really simple.

 

This man is 100% rite. Its really not that hard to understand. Now if you want to be cheesy and try to say that you dont think that is what GW meant, then I suggest you get something in writing from GW. Ill jsut stick with the english that is in black and white. Because the tourneys I play in dont allow Dante to inspire him self, and I play at 3 locations.

[SeattleDV8]

So you also don't allow a banner bearer to effect himself? It's the same logic.

BA Codex " Blood Angels units within 12" of the Chapter banner...."

Or is it as Grey Mage said you would allow it if he was joined to a BA unit?

 

Fluff wise (not a good rules agrument) "Wow , look at Dante slice and dice them Orks! We should do the same!! heh

 

@skeem; I would much rather be right than rite. Even 100% rite.

As I said I know tourney players ..(.'Ard Boys , RTT, GT) that play Dante this way.

[Legatus]

So you also don't allow a banner bearer to effect himself? It's the same logic.

In 3rd and 4th Edition, banners worked by affecting units within a certain distance "of the banner". The rule in the new Codex Imperial Guard can be interpreted in the same manner (it merely says "all unit within X are affected", without specifying). The rules for banners in the current Codex Space Marines are different, and as they stand a lone surviving standard bearer can draw no consolation from his banner.

 

Or is it as Grey Mage said you would allow it if he was joined to a BA unit?

That is a complicated one. Does the unit gets "Preferred Enemy" and then Dante joins them, or does Dante join the unit, and then the whole unit gets "Preferred Enemy"? The chicken or the egg?

By mere "sequence" of Dante having to move within jining distance first one might lean to the former, but that would not really be based on a game mechanic. I would tend o favour the latter. There is a unit within range, one of which Dante happens to be a part of, and the unit as a whole is granted "Preferred Enemy". Models now themselves within 12" of Dante would benefit from it, as long as at least some models of their unit are within range, and by the same principle Dante would benefit from the unit upgrade, even if he himself would not be among the models specifically refered to in the rule text.

I could see GW FaQ-rule either way though.

 

If you would find such a solution weird (can't inspire himself, but now what?), think about it as Dante not wanting to disappoint his awed Blood Angels when they are right next to him (i.e. same squad) and putting in some extra effort himself. :sweat:

[Kurasuke]

"Man, I am so awesome, and I am taking part in this battle, with me. I am a legendary hero, and I am looking up to me. I am going to try extra hard to impress me."

I could see Calgar doing this.

[nighthawks]

If I may - Legatus etc... are reading this correctly with regard to the language - a point is a singularity excluded from a distance around it. dante is not a point, he is a model on a base of so many mm diameter, and as we know, all things are measure FROM the base. Dante is, in this case, the singularity. I think the language is pretty clear that Dante IS NOT included.

 

that said - I have seen the language as clear on a number of issues where I was argued ad nauseum until I quit or the thread got closed by my friend Praeger.

 

why did I loose? because in the face of overwhelming numbers of the opposition, logic has no place, conviction cannot be argued away with logic. group think + conviction doubly so.

 

In this instance, the game mechanic has a lot of precedent supporting the reading of Dante INCLUDED in his own effect. reading the language with that mechanic set in mind may lead one to believe that the effect includes him, and MANY people in MANY places play this way. so do not be surprised if you come across it, and expect to start an argument if you try to change the way those folks do things. this is not as cut and dry to most. I don't have a clue what the RAI is - logically (FWIW) that could go either way.

 

add it to the list?

[SeattleDV8]

Oh yes, It is a grey area.

Really could go both ways.

[SKeeM]

@skeem; I would much rather be right than rite. Even 100% rite.

 

Thats ok man I would rather excell at reading comprehension than spelling any day.

[DevianID]

If we assume that Dante himself on his own does not get preferred enemy as his bubble is more of a donut, what about when he is joined to a unit? The whole unit gets perferred enemy, but unlike other units with perferred enemy as an inate special rule, this special rule is not FROM the unit, so the special rule section about unit special rules not crossing over to attached characters will not apply.

 

Thus, if Dante's effect targets the whole unit, and Dante is part of the whole unit, Dante will gain Preferred enemy as long as he is attached to a unit.

 

Also, it is clear that an effect that targets a unit will apply to Dante, as when you use the special rule Lash of Submission to move a unit, Dante is moved with the lashed unit. Thus another effect that targets a unit, preferred enemy, will apply to the whole unit, Dante included.

 

Thoughts? Logic flaws?

[Legatus]

I tackled that in my previous post. If you interprete it as him joining the unit and the unit being affected by his special rule as two events that happen sequentially then it is possible to interprete it so that the unit is affected by the rule first, and then is joined by Dante. But if you just look at it as two rules that are immediately and at the same time in effect then Dante would grant the unit he is with the effect, including himself as part of teh unit, even though he himself would not be in the area of effect (or rather, among the units specified to be affected in his rule).

[Grey Mage]

I tackled that in my previous post. If you interprete it as him joining the unit and the unit being affected by his special rule as two events that happen sequentially then it is possible to interprete it so that the unit is affected by the rule first, and then is joined by Dante. But if you just look at it as two rules that are immediately and at the same time in effect then Dante would grant the unit he is with the effect, including himself as part of teh unit, even though he himself would not be in the area of effect (or rather, among the units specified to be affected in his rule).

And it certainly reads that way RAW, I think its silly, but your quite right.

[Morticon]

If we assume that Dante himself on his own does not get preferred enemy as his bubble is more of a donut, what about when he is joined to a unit? The whole unit gets perferred enemy, but unlike other units with perferred enemy as an inate special rule, this special rule is not FROM the unit, so the special rule section about unit special rules not crossing over to attached characters will not apply.

 

Thus, if Dante's effect targets the whole unit, and Dante is part of the whole unit, Dante will gain Preferred enemy as long as he is attached to a unit.

 

Also, it is clear that an effect that targets a unit will apply to Dante, as when you use the special rule Lash of Submission to move a unit, Dante is moved with the lashed unit. Thus another effect that targets a unit, preferred enemy, will apply to the whole unit, Dante included.

 

Thoughts? Logic flaws?

 

 

Genius!

 

 

By the way - what was the 4th ed conclusion of the apothecaries (i think it was?) situaiton. There were numerous ' within X" of itself' arguments at least one of which was FAQed to say yes it was. Can anyone add this to the mix? It does set a precedent.

 

The same goes for Corbulo.

 

(Or Apothecaries in BA/DA armies that are the last remaining models in a unit).

 

 

If memory serves, the biggest argument for this was that all measurements are done to the base, which at some point means that measurement has to touch the base, which at some point means it is within range of itself(as is the case with all measurements).

 

Just as a side note - I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that right now, i'm within 12" of myself. No?

[SamaNagol]

No, Dante does not benefit from the rule on his own. RAW is how you resolve this issue, RAI is what you lot are going by.

 

"ANY FRIENDLY UNIT within 12 inches" is the rule. Dante is not a friendly unit of Dante. If it were to say "ANY BLOOD ANGELS UNIT within 12 inches" then as per previous FAQs it would include the point of origin.

 

Your loophole with him joining a unit is rather amusing though. How would it work as it pertains to an Honour Guard?

[Kurasuke]

No, Dante does not benefit from the rule on his own. RAW is how you resolve this issue, RAI is what you lot are going by.

 

"ANY FRIENDLY UNIT within 12 inches" is the rule. Dante is not a friendly unit of Dante. If it were to say "ANY BLOOD ANGELS UNIT within 12 inches" then as per previous FAQs it would include the point of origin.

 

Your loophole with him joining a unit is rather amusing though. How would it work as it pertains to an Honour Guard?

Dante is clearly conflicted internally. He hates himself and tries to sabotage himself at every turn.

I do agree with this side though.

[Grey Mage]

No, Dante does not benefit from the rule on his own. RAW is how you resolve this issue, RAI is what you lot are going by.

 

"ANY FRIENDLY UNIT within 12 inches" is the rule. Dante is not a friendly unit of Dante. If it were to say "ANY BLOOD ANGELS UNIT within 12 inches" then as per previous FAQs it would include the point of origin.

 

Your loophole with him joining a unit is rather amusing though. How would it work as it pertains to an Honour Guard?

I dont see why honor guard would be any different... just because hes an upgrade character doesnt mean the radius doesnt start with him... for precedent see Eldar Spiritseers.

[Seahawk]

After reading it through, my vote would be for not giving it to himself. EXCEPTION! When he is joined with a unit, he is a part of that unit, and since that unit benefits from his ability as it's within 12" of him, he then benefits, but only in those circumstances (when would you ever not attach him to a unit anyway).

[Praeger]

I just got home.

 

Im tired.

 

I dont need or want or really care for petty bickering, or comments that are forced to be deleted.

 

Im normally a nice man. But sometimes I can be....well.....its a bad word thats not allowed here (See what im doing? im tired, a bit drunk and STILL not using bad language)

 

However nice I might normally be, tonight im not. This topic is now closed until I sober up and decide if I care enough to reopen it. Personally I think its going round in circles now and technicaly by RAW that dude Legatus whats his name is right, but hey, I dont have the faq ir BA codex to read so I really cant say.

 

In any case, for now, this topic is on heitius,.....heiatas.....hitas.....gone away to sleep.