Bran Scalphunter Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Vehicles do not possess an LD value. Dreadnoughts fall under this classification. In the BBB, there's a bit about for all intents and purposes, vehicles have ld 10 and always pass their tests. Unless of course I'm just babbling and remembering the 4th edition rule. I'll go check (later) on this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Vehicles do not possess an LD value. Dreadnoughts fall under this classification. In the BBB, there's a bit about for all intents and purposes, vehicles have ld 10 and always pass their tests. Unless of course I'm just babbling and remembering the 4th edition rule. I'll go check (later) on this. Maybe I am thinking 4th as well...checking da rulz. I quote : Vehicles never take morale checks for any reason, it is assumed that in all cases the vehicles crew has unshakable faith in their vehicle and their orders. Any occasional lapses that do occur are represented by crew shaken and stunned results on the damage table. P63 bottom right. So, if we auto pass any LD, do we still need to roll? I think we would need to roll, due to it has an equal negative outcome. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 If we autopass theres no point in rolling.... as youd pass anyways. Thats kind of the point lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 If we autopass theres no point in rolling.... as youd pass anyways. Thats kind of the point lol. True. But you know as well as I do, someone will complain about it.... :P So that then means if the ven dread is charged he gets 4 attacks, if he charges he gets 4 attacks. Go wolves. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Indeed. There is no limit to the level of Win that wolves can pull out of thier butts. All space marines are just green with envy that their cheese cannot compare to the awesome beardiness of a spacewolf. Beards that eat cheese for breakfast and ask for seconds... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Honestly tho, I don't want regular Space Wolf players being able to use any of the 13th Co special abilities. Grey Slayers have the choices of double special weapons because the whole army doesn't have any armor. Wulfen are a 13th Co thing. I say keep the old wulfen rules for regular SW players, but give 13th Co players the choices we have right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 If we autopass theres no point in rolling.... as youd pass anyways. Thats kind of the point lol. True. But you know as well as I do, someone will complain about it.... -_- So that then means if the ven dread is charged he gets 4 attacks, if he charges he gets 4 attacks. Go wolves. :) 1) Dreadnoughts cannot benefit from Counterattack. There is no Leadership value to roll against. 2) Walkers and vehicles do not "auto-pass" morale tests inflicted upon them, they do not take morale tests (partly due to their lack of a relevant statistic.) There are plenty other things fully (ab)usable in our codex at the moment, and our upcoming codex will provide plenty more. WRT: Ramses' recent comment: In all likelihood, the 13th will get rolled into the core SW list, and you'll have to build a fluffy 13th Co Army by ignoring the possibility of taking tanks. It's just the way things are looking. I, for one, don't much care either way as to how many specials our units can take, as with the sole exception of a single flamer, every unit upgrade I've ever used has been either a Power Weapon, Power Fist, or unit transport. Plasma explodes, Melta is too unreliable (though if we can take two, that opinion may change), and flamers are practically carte blanche for our opponents to deny the assault. But I play 40k a bit differently than most, I'd imagine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 If we autopass theres no point in rolling.... as youd pass anyways. Thats kind of the point lol. True. But you know as well as I do, someone will complain about it.... -_- So that then means if the ven dread is charged he gets 4 attacks, if he charges he gets 4 attacks. Go wolves. :lol: 1) Dreadnoughts cannot benefit from Counterattack. There is no Leadership value to roll against. 2) Walkers and vehicles do not "auto-pass" morale tests inflicted upon them, they do not take morale tests (partly due to their lack of a relevant statistic.) There are plenty other things fully (ab)usable in our codex at the moment, and our upcoming codex will provide plenty more. I am sorry , but did you even read my post QUOTE about the RULZ and what the book says? Vehicles AUTO pass a test, and if for some reason they fail , they count as crew shaken...So yes they would auto pass the leadership. :lol: Forgot about the FAQ, the new rule states that TROOPS get it...so my question is null and void either way! LOLOL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 WRT: Ramses' recent comment: In all likelihood, the 13th will get rolled into the core SW list, and you'll have to build a fluffy 13th Co Army by ignoring the possibility of taking tanks. It's just the way things are looking. I, for one, don't much care either way as to how many specials our units can take, as with the sole exception of a single flamer, every unit upgrade I've ever used has been either a Power Weapon, Power Fist, or unit transport. Plasma explodes, Melta is too unreliable (though if we can take two, that opinion may change), and flamers are practically carte blanche for our opponents to deny the assault. But I play 40k a bit differently than most, I'd imagine. If they rolled it into the SW list then 13th Co is gone, period. What we would end up seeing is a ton of "13th Co" Space Wolf players saying they are playing 13th Co, but then including armor and otherwise unavailable units to the 13th Co. This happened with the Dark Angels codex. There are now tons of "Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" armies that are not true Deathwing and Ravenwing armies. A Deathwing army with speeders and devasators?!?!? "Double"wing armies?!?!? So like I said, I would rather see a seperate army list in the new codex for the 13th Co and NOT see them as a 0-1 Elites choice so that every SW player can include that choice in their army and suddenly claim 13th Co. Part of choosing to play a Codex: Eye of Terror 13th Co army is accepting the challenge of using only what they were allowed and being at the disadvantage of having no armor. Considering the size of the army entry withing Codex: EoT for the 13th Co, I don't think it us unreasonable to ask for it to be included in the new Space Wolves codex. As it is right now, if the Codex: EoT 13th Co army list could just be updated to interact with 5th Ed and the new SW dex, I would be happy. I play it as it is right now in Characterhammer 40k with just plain wolf lords, wolf priests, and rune priests while doing just fine against Calgars, Abbadons, etc, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 This happened with the Dark Angels codex. There are now tons of "Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" armies that are not true Deathwing and Ravenwing armies. A Deathwing army with speeders and devasators?!?!? "Double"wing armies?!?!? That was not uncommon in the old skool...I played/saw many players that ran both wings. Nothing wrong with it. Though they did not include static units like devs. I hope they do 13th as an ALTERNATIVE force list, similar to wings...not combined. Though having a elite/fast choice of 0-1 Wulfen would be awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 This happened with the Dark Angels codex. There are now tons of "Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" armies that are not true Deathwing and Ravenwing armies. A Deathwing army with speeders and devasators?!?!? "Double"wing armies?!?!? That was not uncommon in the old skool...I played/saw many players that ran both wings. Nothing wrong with it. Though they did not include static units like devs. I hope they do 13th as an ALTERNATIVE force list, similar to wings...not combined. Though having a elite/fast choice of 0-1 Wulfen would be awesome! It wasn't legal in the "old skool". Playing a DW army meant nothing but a master of the deathwing, terminators, dreads, and land raiders. RW army was just a master of the ravenwing (on bike or speeder), bikes, and speeders. This combining crap allows you to make up for the weaknesses of playing a Deathwing army (slow and little numbers) by adding Ravenwing speed. So while a regular Space Wolf player would like to have double meltas in his squads like a 13th Co player with his Grey Slayer squad, he shouldn't since he can already add anti-armor capability via tanks and dreads. "I want to play a themed army but not deal with the weaknesses of playing a themed army" seems to be the mantra nowadays. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 So, Ramses, you're angry at the rules because it allows for multiple themed lists in a single codex, because players mix themes. I think this falls under the heading of people being angry at the CSM codex for allowing conflicting marks to be mixed. If you don't like it, don't do it! And yes, Lunch, I did read your post. Then I read the rulebook, identified that your post incorrectly quoted the rule in question, and provided arguments based on the actual rule. Either case, it is a moot point, as the FAQ apparently specifies that only infantry benefit from Counter Attack (which I have not ascertained to be accurate, but for which I will trust your word, mostly because it follows logically from the previous point: Vehicles do not take leadership (or morale) tests. That they do not take morale is spelled out in the rules; that they do not take leadership logically follows as they do not have a Ld value to test against. Back to the sillyness of begging for awesomeness we'll never see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1986970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Not angry but not looking forward to the flood of "new" 13th Co players coming in with tanks, transports, and dreads claiming to be 13th because of a 0-1 elite choice. Just as if I was looking across a table at a mixture of terminators, devastators, assault marines, tactical marines, bikes, and razorbacks while the guy setting them out is calling it a Deathwing because it is being led by Belial. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 If it makes you feel any better, I'll be running my wolves same as I've ever been. Night Runners for me. Though I might have a single squad of Wulfen running about, but that'll just be the Wolf Priest's "flock" of isolated brethren, not any of the 13th. If they get rid of the 13th entirely, though, I will have to add honor marks to my wolves, in remembrance of their fallen brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 If it makes you feel any better, I'll be running my wolves same as I've ever been.Night Runners for me. Though I might have a single squad of Wulfen running about, but that'll just be the Wolf Priest's "flock" of isolated brethren, not any of the 13th. If they get rid of the 13th entirely, though, I will have to add honor marks to my wolves, in remembrance of their fallen brothers. I will be pretty pissed if they yank it all together and will just run a normal Space Wolves army if they reduce it to the point it is just a crap choice amid a regular SW army. Like I said, just make the current list interact with the new SW dex and 5th edition and I will continue to run a generic wolf lord, a generic rune priest, and a generic wolf priest. 13th Co does not need Characterhammer 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I doubt your wish will be fulfilled, brother. The new dex is rumored to be focused on "Heroic Individuals." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanfield Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 as much as some folks might not like the idea what if in the new fluff the 13th return to the fang,the last bit of fluff i remember from the black crusade bumpwas the wolves and dark angels with drawing from the war zones to go to talssar prime the inquistion fortress world , in terms of play and game rules i agree that if they havent returned they should be limited to what they have currantly as to both the wolves and the 13th company my real fear is the change to chapter as a whole if the wolves return-here we have warriors that fought with russ how would logan stand up to that as a challange ,will the chapters colors change (again),what of the impact on squad types etc (is my army regular wolves gona be wiped out again as it was with the change to 2nd eddition) i feel very sorry for the 13th players they are a cool idea and i have enough experiance with gw products over the years to be very fearfull of the scale of change well just have to wait and see brothers for russ and the wolf time Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkseer Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I love the idea of the 13th company returning and rejoining the Space Wolves, especially if they are led by Russ himself! If GW had any business brains (and the new MD had shown he does judging by Apocalypse and Planetstrike) we'll get Russ back and everyone will go loopy for Space Wolves! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I love the idea of the 13th company returning and rejoining the Space Wolves, especially if they are led by Russ himself! If GW had any business brains (and the new MD had shown he does judging by Apocalypse and Planetstrike) we'll get Russ back and everyone will go loopy for Space Wolves! :) Why on earth would they bring back a primarch Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I love the idea of the 13th company returning and rejoining the Space Wolves, especially if they are led by Russ himself! If GW had any business brains (and the new MD had shown he does judging by Apocalypse and Planetstrike) we'll get Russ back and everyone will go loopy for Space Wolves! If GW has any buisness sense they wont start the end times... wich is what Russ's return would mean. If we get a primarch then all the other first foundings And chaos legions will want theres in print.... and theres the end of the timeline eh? Besides, Id rather not have everyone be loopy for space wolves.... I like the steady trickle of "recruits" we get. I find more similiarities with them, and I dont have to play every third game against my own codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Yeah, cant wait for the next dex to come out, hope they put a new dex on the marked within a month after the SW ex with an easy to do I win list, so they can all move on :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1987605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobman Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 The beauty of GW games is the room for individual scope. Them always leaving the 'million worlds' get out clause so people can invent their own stuff. Bringing Russ into an official book would ruin that. As people have said it would mean a definitive timeline, ie 'end times'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1988195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 The beauty of GW games is the room for individual scope. Them always leaving the 'million worlds' get out clause so people can invent their own stuff. Bringing Russ into an official book would ruin that. As people have said it would mean a definitive timeline, ie 'end times'. Nah ... it's GW, they call always pull fluff out of their nether regions and keep things going. The reason we won't (likely ever) see actual stats for a primarch is because GW would never hear the end of it ... If you bring out Russ, the smurfs will cry the Roboute wasn't ressurected, Chaos players will demand that all the traitor primarchs be brought back from the warp ... next thing you know, you've got Codex: Emperor ... 'cause you'd need a whole freaking codex for all the special rules that would be required to live up to expectations. By quantifying them, you'd also loose the whole mythical figure aspect. Right now, primarchs are 10's across the board with 1+ inv saves taking joyrides on titans. Once you give them stats, you give them weaknesses. One will be better at this, another will have a certain vulnerability to that ... And besides ... Russ is the best and it'd shame all the others. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1988251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 "If it has stats, we can kill it." - 1st koan of the WotC d20 Character Optimization Boards. Though, some hot Primarch on C'Tan action would make me giggle like a Cadian. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1988418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 "If it has stats, we can kill it." - 1st koan of the WotC d20 Character Optimization Boards. Though, some hot Primarch on C'Tan action would make me giggle like a Cadian. Yeah but remember pun-pun? Just because you CAN doesnt mean you Should. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/168296-hopes-and-predictions-for-the-upcoming-codex/page/2/#findComment-1988423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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