Kroot Rules

[Corpse.]

Firstly, the kroot army rules need to be googled for. No rules dismiss them as an armylist or allies. No consent required.

 

In the kroot "codex" the list of possible allies are not listed, instead it only says who cant use them as allies. So any new armies do get to use them.

 

Noted, in the Daemonic Assault it says "Army" and thus, the Kroot are included in the deep strike rules even if they dont have deep strike.

 

They do not count as daemons for the purpose of Heralds joining and leaving, so they cannot join kroot.

 

Kroot do not gain daemon rules for the purposes of fighting Daemonhunters.

 

So with those clearings set. Lets discuss the allies of the warp. (Weird, right? - Could imagine these "indians" of 40k as spiritually connected to the warp).

 

The typical unit would have to be the ranged ones. Being able to deep strike a unit with 5 krootox (they have guns similar to autocannons) and slap down vehicles with them. Transports especially. The numerous kroot units could cover a large bane of lacking heavy numbers. Also being the only non-fearless units within a Daemon Army.

 

It can be debated that the rules apply to Kroot from page 27 of the Daemon Codex. I would have to say no, because the "Daemon" rule is specified as encompassing all daemonic rules. And thus the rule of "Daemon" is added to every unit inside the codex. Thats the difference from the Daemonic Assault to the Daemon rules in general.

 

So what do you guys think? Is it just an oversight that seems stupid? I like the idea of having 'Indians' join the daemons. With shamans no less!

 

(I got my Kroot copy at Rapidshare - it was free off GW website and then they stopped with those articles, that also included other allies like warp dogs etc)

 

What would your use of kroot be, and more importantly which units?

[DarKHaZZ13]

seeing as the kroot codex is only a chapter approved/dwarf codex i wouldn't put alot of faith into using it

[Corpse.]

In 3rd edition it was consent only, then a big fuss was made when consent was no longer required in an update during 3rd edition. 4th edition gave full allowance, and when 5th edition came along GW hopes people will forget about them by removing the rules off their website.

 

www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180086_Tau_Datasheet_-_Kroot_Mercenaries.pdf

+++Mod edit: download link removed+++

 

They are still completely legal.

 

-Also, the blood angel codex is PDF'd/GW site download/chapter approved(white dwarf) codex.

 

Makes for a kroot codex even as viable as they are still, if anyone could argue otherwise.

[Captain Malachi]

Blood Angels are official because GW let's them get used in tournaments. Kroot are not official as they cannot be used in tournaments (as far as I know). Kroot are still opponents permission in the sense that unless some tournament has allowed them, the other guy can just refuse to play.

 

More importantly, they aren't even that great. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who'd let you deepstrike the kroot, and frankly I'd rather not deepstrike them anyway. Also, they don't really cover a weakness in our army, we have bolt for light tank busting so the krootox are a waste, and you're not going to argue that we need help in CC are you?

 

I'm sure this has come up before.....

[Dezartfox]

The kroot rules are old.. from like 3rd edition. They were deemed "outlawed" and not allowed in tournaments in 4th edition.

Just because you have the rules doesn't mean you can use them with todays rules. It's like getting an old rulebook and using parts of that with 5th edition.

[Corpse.]

Kroot are numerous and mostly have 2 models for every 1. They treat forests as clear terrain for deep strike purposes, and gain +1 cover saves in forests. (Several weak spots covered).

 

Against orks, instead of paying 2x the cost for 2 shots (albeit 12" range rapid fire) we get the same strength guns for anti orks, not needing AP4.

 

The eviscerator on the shaper is roughly what you get when swinging a greater daemon of khorne at a tank. Ablative wounds for striking last when slapping a dreadnought/other walker. The only hidden powerfist inside a unit for Daemons.

 

Two wounds, no armor saves, or one wound, 1/3 or 1/2 armor saves at the same toughness. A mix between both, master of neither, and benefits 2x as much from terrain (if not more = forests).

 

Flexible 24" guns, rapid fire, or charging counting as 2x CCW's at str4, a great hordfe smasher that stays on par with orks to a degree. (one less toughness, always counts as having that furious charge, str4 I3, better 'power klaw' and 1 mor wound on the leader of the squad, no mob rule though) Some unis always get fleet, others do not.

 

Its a mixed comparison, that can fit in most lists.

 

Mind sharing where the official word outlawing Kroot rules? I know they are disallowed in tourniments, almost always has been, but that didnt stop them from keeping the rules up oin the website until the recent site update. (Also noted on the same webpage that they didnt require consent).

 

Tourniment rules are tourny rules, and are not entirely enforced on the average game unless a ruling that isnt Erratad is taken care of. And as such, no tourny erratas say that Kroot are illegal in standard games.

 

Please share where it says Kroot are illegal in standard games. (or at least the link where tourniment rules apply to all standard games).

 

The only ruling that pertains to kroot that I've found was the rulebook FAQ, y'know the one that says if a rule has a dead end, there will be no fix to it. (I think it was the final question in the FAQ)

[Captain Malachi]

Ok, official only means anything in tournaments. If my opponent allowed it, I could play 2nd ed. space marine rules, but by the same token, my opponent is well within his rights to refuse to play any 'official' army out there in a friendly game.

 

The kroot deepstriking in to forests is just pure rules lawyering on your part, and since you could only ever use these in a friendly game I'll ignore that bit. Their guns aren't that great, I'd rather just have horrors, since I KNOW I can take them in a game (and horrors have three shots....). Cover saves? Erm, so? We already have invulnerable saves, not having 3+ cover saves isn't a weakness in our army. Yes, they have numbers, but our army doesn't work on numbers. That's like saying you must take scouts in a marine army 'cos they're cheaper.

 

None of this matters though, very few people (if any) will allow you to take kroot in your daemon army, especially if you're doing it for nothing more than a tactical advantage and not because you just like kroot.

[stump]

I have played againt a Kroot merc. army and I was a little pissed with the opponent. The only reason he took them was for flanking and having an Eviscerator in the unit with a fleet move along with it. His Eldar army did not need them and it was not fluffy. His comment was they are cheaper than Scorpains with all the upgrades and I can have more of them for the same price. I think he feilded a block of 20. This was at a Indy GT event.

 

Trying to get a tactical advantage with a loop hole does not make a good game for you opponent trust me. You bring a tough as nails list you better know the rules and your codex better than me at a tourny. I hate playing a game against a crazy list and then having to count dice to make sure he knows how many attacks his models have, or having to look up every rule because they don't beleive me and I am right.

 

In a freindly game where you are learning I look up every rule because if your starting to play telling you the rule does not mean it will stick but looking it up and then reading it will help as well as learning how the codex/rules book is laid out.

 

The daemon codex is good enough on it's own you don't need any extra help from worldly being. Think of what Skarbrand would say.

 

Skarbrand:"We will kill and maim and burn our way throu this planet in the name of the Khorne. Blood for the blood god"

 

Herald:"We have to wait for the Kroot to get into deployment, they are better at cover saves and have fleet of foot and can infitrate if need be"

 

Skarbrand:..........

 

Herald:"They are cheaper than our troops and count as scoring"

 

Skarbrand: THUD(Heralds head hitting the floor from decapitions)"That had to be the Changling Khorne does not hide or infi.. whatever the word is and who cares about scoring we take skulls that is all that matters"

 

My 2 cents.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I have played againt a Kroot merc. army and I was a little pissed with the opponent. The only reason he took them was for flanking and having an Eviscerator in the unit with a fleet move along with it. His Eldar army did not need them and it was not fluffy. His comment was they are cheaper than Scorpains with all the upgrades and I can have more of them for the same price. I think he feilded a block of 20. This was at a Indy GT event.

 

Trying to get a tactical advantage with a loop hole does not make a good game for you opponent trust me. You bring a tough as nails list you better know the rules and your codex better than me at a tourny. I hate playing a game against a crazy list and then having to count dice to make sure he knows how many attacks his models have, or having to look up every rule because they don't beleive me and I am right.

 

In a freindly game where you are learning I look up every rule because if your starting to play telling you the rule does not mean it will stick but looking it up and then reading it will help as well as learning how the codex/rules book is laid out.

 

The daemon codex is good enough on it's own you don't need any extra help from worldly being. Think of what Skarbrand would say.

 

Skarbrand:"We will kill and maim and burn our way throu this planet in the name of the Khorne. Blood for the blood god"

 

Herald:"We have to wait for the Kroot to get into deployment, they are better at cover saves and have fleet of foot and can infitrate if need be"

 

Skarbrand:..........

 

Herald:"They are cheaper than our troops and count as scoring"

 

Skarbrand: THUD(Heralds head hitting the floor from decapitions)"That had to be the Changling Khorne does not hide or infi.. whatever the word is and who cares about scoring we take skulls that is all that matters"

 

My 2 cents.

 

Except that that was not a loophole, that's the way the Kroot rules work: as allies. No way around that. No loophole.

 

Now DSing them, there's a serious loophole. As in, I-won't-let-you-do-it-in-a-million-years serious.

[stump]

Your exactly right if the List was still legal but it is not it was allowed in for a favor as far as I know,could be wrong. There was more shady stuff that player did besides that, if I had been a better player. Owning a copy of his codex and know it cover to cover I could have caught more,but hindsight being what it was I did not. So I got destroyed and taken out of any running for top 25.

 

I could have never won it or even come close my list was based on what I had.

[aberrant_unc]

Kroot were outlawed in 4th edition - nothing about 5th edition brings them back from the grave.

[Rahveel]

id raise an eyebrow or 3 if you tried DSing Kroot in a daemons army, but have no issues with people using them. I love kroot mercs, and playing against them is fun.

[aberrant_unc]

id raise an eyebrow or 3 if you tried DSing Kroot in a daemons army, but have no issues with people using them. I love kroot mercs, and playing against them is fun.

 

I would let my opponent do it too, but that doesn't make it legal.

[Ju'kosian]

id raise an eyebrow or 3 if you tried DSing Kroot in a daemons army, but have no issues with people using them. I love kroot mercs, and playing against them is fun.

 

I would let my opponent do it too, but that doesn't make it legal.

 

Same here, I would allow it but that doesn't mean that it's completly legal.

But for fun, sure why not.. :D

 

Strange combo, I wonder how agreements would be achieved between the two armies..

[Captain Malachi]

Daemonic possession of the master shaper :D

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Your exactly right if the List was still legal but it is not it was allowed in for a favor as far as I know,could be wrong. There was more shady stuff that player did besides that, if I had been a better player. Owning a copy of his codex and know it cover to cover I could have caught more,but hindsight being what it was I did not. So I got destroyed and taken out of any running for top 25.

 

I could have never won it or even come close my list was based on what I had.

 

Okay then, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying using the Kroot Mercs in and of itself was a loophole. As it was, what he did was illegal.

[Corpse.]

Well firstly I like indians, and kroot are indians.

 

1: They become what they eat. That is an ancient (four thousand years+ ancient) american indian saying. Even some indian tribes were cannibals that ate emenies they feared but won against. To obtain their strength.

 

2: They are birds, thus raptors. (Dinosaurs evolved into birds). So raptor-bird indians? Cool!

 

3: They have shamans, and being into many religeous involvements that include witchcraft (wicca) and shamanism, they spoke with the spirits of the afterlife very often and used them for peace rituals.

 

4: In the grim darkness of the far future, nobody is a true good guy. So, needing to eat the strong to stay sentient and potentially strengthen the species in pilgramages... (Like vikings, coming to take what they need then leaving, which I also love the vikings - I have bloodlines from two different countries linking me to them). And the more recent discoveries that vikings visited america, and faught the same indians with those beliefs... Well.. Yeah, lots of stuff going on there on why I like kroot.

 

Plus having a type of tyranid species that can act like good guys/nomads etc is a very cool theme.

 

I only said kroot must deep strike because it says "the army must deep strike" in the codex, which it becomes the parent codex "with allies". Trust me if I thought I could pass that and just outflank/deploy them normally I would rather do so.

 

With the same concept, someone could argue they benefit from daemon rules because of that deep strike thing, so I had to look hard to figure out where it wouldnt apply, which made me hesitate posting this in case someone might argue with me that they recieve daemon rules as well. (Which would be stupid if they did).

 

Lots of indians believe travelling the afterlife with the essance (paganism and otherwise) of the world. The essance, essentially could mean the warp by sub-concious hints granted to them in visions. (mid-psyker evoloution days).

 

I wouldnt suggest this if I didnt think it had merit. The kroot arent all that hard to get rid of anyways, they die worse then guardsmen and no frag grenades.

 

+They treat wooded terrain as clear terrain, and thus the deep strike ruling of scattering into difficult terrain treats it as dangerous terrain. Thus, them ignoring woods/jungles and treating them as quote "Clear terrain" means they do not suffer dangerous terrain tests. No rules lawyering there to be seen, its just two rules that seem to mix perfectly unless you can spot something.

 

 

I got a ton of flame over this, I thought you guys would be happy to see this sort of thing. My fault for bringing it here, discussion ends whenever you guys want to stop posting and let this topic die.

[Brother Nihm]

I got a ton of flame over this, I thought you guys would be happy to see this sort of thing. My fault for bringing it here, discussion ends whenever you guys want to stop posting and let this topic die.

No offence but if you go by the comments in this thread alone I think that you need to develop a harder skin, I don't see the 'ton of flame' that you speak of, merely a lot of people disagreeing with you. :jaw:

 

I have a theory.

Though we're now in the age of counts as etc., your idea goes against what daemon fluff there is and this rubs many the wrong way - hence the opposition to your idea. Don't let that discourage you.

 

That people disagree (in a civil manner) simply makes for great discussions. :tu:

 

 

Personally speaking, I like your idea (bar the proposed loophole to allow Kroot to DS/reinforce like daemons), there's a lot of modelling potential in daemonic Kroot and it would make for a different and characterful army.

 

In 3rd edition it was consent only, then a big fuss was made when consent was no longer required in an update during 3rd edition. 4th edition gave full allowance, and when 5th edition came along GW hopes people will forget about them by removing the rules off their website.

 

They are still completely legal.

 

-Also, the blood angel codex is PDF'd/GW site download/chapter approved(white dwarf) codex.

 

Makes for a kroot codex even as viable as they are still, if anyone could argue otherwise.

I'd like to turn the tables on this one for the merit of this discussion and ask you to prove that they are legal.

 

The way I see it Kroot Mercs are only legal as an Apocalypse/Datasheet option, just like the Lost and the Damned. Many tourneys disallow the old sub-lists for that very reason. I've seen nothing that makes them official anywhere outside of Apocalypse.

 

With regards to the comparison with C:BA, please note that it is explicitly stated on the website that:

This official Codex for the Blood Angels, written by Jervis Johnson, is presented here in its entirety and completely replaces the published Codex: Blood Angels. You will need only this download and the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook to field a Blood Angels army.

 

My 2 Kraks

[Rahveel]

Plus having a type of tyranid species that can act like good guys/nomads etc is a very cool theme.

 

I dont really think kroot are a form of tyranid. although, I can see the logical process that would make one think they were.

 

hmm.... new 40k conspiracy theory? ;)

 

I only said kroot must deep strike because it says "the army must deep strike" in the codex, which it becomes the parent codex "with allies". Trust me if I thought I could pass that and just outflank/deploy them normally I would rather do so.

 

I belive that rule would only aply to the the army as chosen from the codex. the codex covers the special rules for daemons, the kroot list covers the special rules for kroot.

 

I got a ton of flame over this, I thought you guys would be happy to see this sort of thing. My fault for bringing it here, discussion ends whenever you guys want to stop posting and let this topic die.

 

no flame, just friendly debate (friendly being relitive, but the discussion is good).

 

honestly I dont see the kroot doing alot for daemons, other than providing a decent shooter/cc speedbump, something that does not really exist in the daemons codex. vultures are also much cooler than furies.

 

personally I think the kroot merc rules would work well for a chaos cultist/mutant list when allied with daemons. a small, pitifull looking band of traitors and mutants, whom sudenly call the wrath of their dark masters upon their closing foes. ;)

[Captain Malachi]

Ok, erm, if I came off as flamey, I'd like to apologise, for some reason I often seem to come off as flamey.

[Rahveel]

Ok, erm, if I came off as flamey, I'd like to apologise, for some reason I often seem to come off as flamey.

 

Well, if you'd quit torching the homes of the inoccent, that might not happen.

[Captain Malachi]

Yeah, but then what kind of daemon lord would I be?

[Corpse.]

Cool cool, after a bit of a scuffle in the chaos undivided section I avoid conflict a bit more as of recent. Sorry for over-reacting.

 

Ok on the legal thing, I cant find much and I emailed GW (with full links to get the rules for them to see) with questions relating to if tourniment rules apply to regular gaes including banned army codexes since kroot codex was not out-dated by a newer version, just dropped off the earth.

 

So until I get a reply I would like to hold off on that, since we might go around in circles. My belief though was that if it was never officially denoted as a list that no longer counts (like squats were publicly dropped) I am in the mindset it still counts, though many can disagree with me with no solid grounds without official word from GW to clear it up. (Trying to avoid pointless debates on both ends =)

 

I would love it if I could deploy kroot in the beginning. Though wording "In the army" is loose, and probly was written without kroot in mind. So, going with RAI it would half/half give into RAW as well, so with 1.5 of 2.0 leaning towards kroot deploying normally/outflanking normally I think it will go for regular deployment options. (Rethinking and after reading comments here).

 

So just in case kroot are perfectly legal (I will copy the email here when I get it back) what do you guys think of outflanking 20-squads with eviscerators? Conversion potential of being a sort of loose- lost and the damned? It would be really cool IMO for conversion possibilities!

 

Starting to think of some sort of sub alpha legion cult with daemons and such. Though the forest as clear terrain thing may be a bit against it.

[Captain Malachi]

Ok, assuming it is legal, here's what my 2k daemon/kroot list would look like:

 

HQ:

Bloodthirster w/ blessing of the Blood God and unholy might.

Keeper of secrets w/ unholy might and soporific musk.

 

Troops:

10x plaguebearers.

10x plaguebearers.

15x kroot, shaper.

 

Fast attack:

12x vulture kindred, shaper w/ power weapon/bolt pistol.

12x vulture kindred, shaper w/ power weapon/bolt pistol.

 

Heavy support:

Daemon prince w/ mark of Nurgle, noxious touch, daemonic flight, iron hide, breath of chaos and cloud of flies.

Daemon prince w/ mark of Nurgle, noxious touch, daemonic flight, iron hide and cloud of flies.

Daemon prince w/ mark of Nurgle, noxious touch, daemonic flight, iron hide and cloud of flies.

 

 

To be totally honest, I don't think it's really added much to my list. I have 5 MCs to kill tanks, so about the only thing I've gained is a couple of mediocre CC units in the form of vultures, but at least they get 5 power weapon attacks on the charge, as well as 22 normal attacks. The other kroot unit, the troops, can make an average objective taker I suppose.

 

If your army has less MCs and therefore more trouble with tanks, or there are a lot of tanks in your local metagame, then I can see some value to outflanking eviscerators, though 20 man squads might be a bit much.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

So, units from which Daemons might benefit?

 

Shaper Councils and Krootox Teams. A Shaper Council with 5 Eviscerators, 5 meltaguns, and wings would make a mess out of all the vehicles you'd face (even skimmers!), and Krootox provide an autocannon-esque gun for pretty cheap.