Let's talk Imperial Guard Vs Sisters

[ArmouredWing]

There's been a whole hub-bub relating to the good stuff we can get access to out of the new guard codex but how do sisters fare facing some of the new guard units & vehicles?

 

I've not had a great chance to look through the new guard codex but one of the BIG issues seems to be the use of sanctioned psykers to reduce Ld and cause units to be pinned or rout them off the table. A sound tactic against most but when it comes to sisters are we affected by the powers of these foul witches? Does the shield of faith give us an edge? Does the Book of St Lucius still give us unmodified Ld?

 

So, what's good against new guard and what's bad from a WH/Sisters perspective?

[boreas]

Against guards:

 

The good:

-Book of St-Lucius makes us immune to Psyker squads

-Faith points make us more resilient than Space Marines against AP3 weaponry.

-Lots of meltagun on cheap power-armoured troops are good to crack all those vehicles

-Lots of flamers is good to clear out squads.

-We can actually induct those IG to fight against their own

-Our smoke launchers downgrade to glance

-Divine Pronouncement can clear a squad per turn from the table.

 

The Bad:

-Our rhinos are expensive and fall easily to cheap autocannons (a 1750pts IG list can easily have 9 autocannons with the possibility of re-rolls to hit)

-We have to get in range which give the IG 1-2 turns to shoot us with pretty much all he's got.

-Pretty unpredictable (can do a gunline list, a chimera-spam list, an outflank list, a tank-heavy list, etc...)

 

The Ugly:

-We will run out of faith points really fast if a list is tooled out (without cheesing or using any squadrons, that same 1750pts IG list has 5 St8 Ap3 ordnance blasts AND 3 St- Ap3 (poisoned 2+) templates).

 

What I'd recommend:

 

-Spam rhinos. If you have a lot, you can outspam his autocannons. Get smoke launchers!

-Exploit FW: ask, beg, do whatever but ask your opponent for the permission to use FW's 35 points rhinos.

-Spam sisters: for once, you're better than your opponent, both in close-range shooting AND CC.

-Spam meltaguns: well.... duh!

-Spam flamers: no need to pay for those expensive Heavy flamers. Guard roast easily!

-Get into CC!: Forget those bolter shots. Flame/melta and charge! Celestians will have a field day...

-Forget about eviscerators or blessed weapons. Powerweapons + bolt pistols give your vets 4 attacks on the charge!

 

A 1750 pts list would go like this:

 

Canoness (book, PW, BP, frag), 9 celestians retinue (VSS w/BP+PW, meltagun, flamer), Rhino

Canoness (book, PW, BP, frag), 9 celestians retinue (VSS w/BP+PW, meltagun, flamer), Rhino

 

10 Celestians (VSS w/BP+PW+BoSL, meltagun, flamer), Rhino

10 Celestians (VSS w/BP+PW+BoSL, meltagun, flamer), Rhino

 

10 Sisters (VSS w/BP+PW+BoSL, meltagun, flamer), Rhino

10 Sisters (VSS w/BP+PW+BoSL, meltagun, flamer), Rhino

10 Sisters (VSS w/BP+PW+BoSL, meltagun, flamer), Rhino

10 Sisters (VSS w/BP+PW+BoSL, meltagun, flamer), Rhino

 

That gives you 8 rhinos, 8 meltaguns, 8 flamers, 80 models, unmodifiable LD9/10 across the board and 12 (!!!) faith points. I've used the FW rhinos, though, at 15 pts less than codex and integrated smoke launcher... If half of that reached his lines, you'll butcher him.

 

Phil

[Melissia]

My thoughts mirror Boreas. Note that this is one of the few times taht Celestians will shine in close combat, so use and abuse it.

[ArmouredWing]

Some interesting odds and ends there Phil.

 

I've got to say that I do think sisters are in a moderately better position against new IG than many of the newer lists out there mainly because of some of our old school rules.

 

I'm looking towards the 2009/10 Throne of Skulls with a view to field my current sisters loadout of footsloggers supported with exorcists and a command immolator and I do think that there is going to be an absolute glut of new IG lists on the tables. However I do think that if you play an intergrated list where each unit/vehicle plays a specific role to support each then you stand a reasonable chance of success. For me the key is that the exorcists kill the main threats to the infantry (hellhounds etc) and the large sister squads do the rest.

 

It is tempting to go and play IG at their own game, induct some choice units and turn the tables on the opposing IG player, but I've not got the heart to dilute my sisters and I do believe that it's more than possible to put together a list which proves a tough challenge for a 5th ed codex.

[boreas]

Some interesting odds and ends there Phil.

 

Thanks!

 

I'm looking towards the 2009/10 Throne of Skulls with a view to field my current sisters loadout of footsloggers supported with exorcists and a command immolator and I do think that there is going to be an absolute glut of new IG lists on the tables. However I do think that if you play an intergrated list where each unit/vehicle plays a specific role to support each then you stand a reasonable chance of success. For me the key is that the exorcists kill the main threats to the infantry (hellhounds etc) and the large sister squads do the rest.

 

I'd stay away from such a list! From what I've seen during my games against IG (both new and old) is that the exorcist doesn't shine at all! Against Leman Russ tanks, it will not do much. Against chimeras, it's really good, but a bit overkill and then can only target one per turn. Against chimeras, you're better off driving up to them and melta them from the top hatch. If worst comes to worst, gun it with a meltagun and then assault the unit inside (BRB p. 67!).

 

As for footsloggers, the main problem is that they will get squished by AP3 ordnance. As they usually are bigger squads (10+) you won't be able to use Spirit of the Martyr effectively. A vicious IG commander will use "fire on my target" on its company command squad. This way, you have to re-roll all cover saves from that St 9 Ap3 Ordnance blast the Master of Ordnance will shoot. They will also be target for smaller guns (Heavy bolters and lasguns) and a ton of shots will eventually get through your power armor. A regular unit using the "first rank fire, second rank fire" order will kill 2-3 sisters with only lasguns, which is a lot for a 40pts unit.

 

I do agree that the current SoB dex is one of the best to use against the new IG codex!

 

Phil

[Hellbreaker]

A vicious IG commander will use "fire on my target" on its company command squad. This way, you have to re-roll all cover saves from that St 9 Ap3 Ordnance blast the Master of Ordnance will shoot.

 

Wait, don't tell me I've been cheated! I was told "Fire on my target" was ignoring cover saves...

 

:lol:

 

GHA! *turns on flamer* BURN!

 

Well anyway I found on my last game(ironically with an allied IG player) that Arco-flagellants was mean against all those guardsmen, they alone took out a whole lot of guys. :D My battle sisters sat on the other end of the table firing at spess mehrens. :P

[Grabsnikk]

I agree with Boreas on the thoughts of taking as many rhinos against the Guard as possible, it really does seem like the best way to beat them by providing them with so many targets that they simply can't kill them all in the 1-2 turns of shooting the guard will get before we reach their lines.

I would however still include a pair of exorcists to take care of the Hellhound variants and Valkyries/Vendettas. And also any Sentinals that could prove a problem for our infantry.

I don't really agree on taking power weapons though as this will mean that you cannot damage vehicles in CC which could be really bad if say we get charged by some armoured sentinals and then have no way to beat them in CC.

[WAR]

I recently played against guard for the first time Saturday night at 1850 pts an what I learned was exorcists where not that great- killed a bane wolf (squadron of two) spent most of the game stunned after turn one. Squads disappear from hvy bolters, hvy flamers, and immolators.... but retalitation a pain. game ended in a tie and my fear of storm troopers is gone not really worth it. game ended in a tie on kill points but we both had very little forces left.

[Toogeloo]

Playing against guard will require some helpful rolling of mission type. Guard will excel at Spearhead Missions as well as Seize Ground and Capture and Control.

 

Spearhead gives them the longest range possible to shoot at you while you close the gap, this includes his 72" reach on many vehicular weapons compared to our maximum 48" reach of Exorcists. You can spend 2 to 3 turns just trying to get into range with Flame weaponry. With all the Scoring Units a Guard player will command, he will also excel at protecting objectives and getting to them fast with Valkyries.

 

I think the Average Guard Player 1500+ points will have enough Heavy Weapons teams in his Platoons to take out at least one AV13 vehicle a turn or 2-3 AV11 vehicles. With the much cheaper cost of Autocannons, I can definitely see at least 9 at 1000 points and 15+ at 1500+ points. These are going to rip Rhinos up and have a chance to at least keep Exorcists from firing. A smart Guard player will use more autocannons than any other heavy weapon in his list due to versatility and cost, but he also will make sure he brings a few lascannons and missile launchers to the fight too to take on AV14 and better chances at AV13.

 

We also have to worry about orders. A fool hardy player discounts the lasgun and the cover saves that guardsmen possess. First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire will allow him to double tap twice as far as before and triple tap at normal rapid fire range. Add to this fact that Infantry Squads can combine, you can have a potential 150 lasgun shots coming down on a single squad from one combined infantry squad. Due to the sheer number of wounds that can be caused, Sisters on foot will probably not survive. Take Cover will not do much against flamers, but against Bolter and Meltagun shots it will. A Guard Unit can have a 2+ cover save if he knows which unit is going to get targeted, something that Sisters are not too subtle about.

 

These are just basic points, and really only focus on the backbone of the Guard army, the Infantry Platoon. We still have to worry about Valkyries, Storm Troopers with AP3 Hellguns, Leman Russes, and Hellhound Variants (amongst over vehicles) not to mention special characters and advisors.

 

 

 

What will end up happening is a race to get everything you have at the Guard army before he kills it. You will take several casualties as you move across the board, but the units that do make it across should be able to start causing major havoc to the Guardsmen. Use Cover to your advantage, make sure you have about 25+% of the board covered in terrain so that you can always find someplace to give your vehicles cover and troops cover. Make sure as you are moving you focus on flanks instead of headlong charges, this will help give you more cover as he shoots through more of his units and it will also help keep many of his units at range that can't do anything.

 

Seraphim can be extremely useful if you can benefit from Hit and Run. Try to set up weak assaults (1 model in charge range, remaining out of charge so you get less attacks) so that you can try to tie up a couple squads. If you can make it through the assault phase, you can either stay tied up and keep the Seraphim safe from shooting, or you can Hit and Run to some form of cover. If you stay tied up, you may be able to use Hit and Run on his assault phase which can give the Seraphim a huge move bonus allowing you to pick just about anything you want to kill.

 

Consider taking an Orbital Strike as well so that terrain locked Guardsmen can be thinned out. Make sure that Exorcists focus fire on Sentinels, Valkyries, and Hellhound Variants (in that order) as those vehicles will cause the biggest problems that Exorcists can statistically take on. Leave Lemans to Meltaguns and Eviscerators.

 

The worst scenario you can get against a Guard Player will be a Seize Ground Mission with Spearhead deployment. Capture and Control gives you at least a chance at a draw if you can't penetrate and still have the ability to deny your objective. The best deployment you can hope for is Annihilation with Dawn of War deployment.

 

 

Edit: had Assault Cannon on the brain, when it should have been Autocannon ;)

[ArmouredWing]

Hmmm, ok, more interesting stuff but how about new ideas to tackle these problems?

 

Here's a couple I've been pondering on.

 

Firstly, deployment. 5th ed has given us a bit of a boon in regards to a number of features but I'd have to say that the particular one I'm toying with is the ability to hold back units using the reserves rule. For setting up in table quarters this can be particularly effective as there is a good chance that you will be able to effectively out flank using the long table edge. a 72" range is also only any good if there's something that can be seen, shot at and not retaliate.

The obvious down side is that if you do this en masse you'll risk bringing on units piecemeal so that the guard player can take time picking off targets at leisure, but the measure of success would be dependant on the bait units already on the table and how you could herd the approaching guard ranks into a suitable position to catch them in the side.

 

Secondly, cover. Yes, IG can remove cover saves but at the same time we can't forget that to get a cover save you've got to be seen in the first place. No TLoS means not being fired at by anything other than ordnance and if you can find a way to hide troops behind buildings or vehicles behind hills it prevents being shot at which is infinitely better than getting a cover save.

 

Thirdly, How much space is there left on the IG side of the table? For me rather than thinking that many units is a disadvantage I like to think of it as a target rich environment where the IG player can be forced to move something in a certain way because not everything can be hidden. The big problem for IG is that they will find that they can very easily be funnelled and the closer they get together the less they can move. Perfect environment for templates. The other thing to consider is that although they can get extra shots they will only get them outside RF range if they don't move at all. They move, they lose the ability to double tap at 24". With this being the case you can force a decision on them. Do they move into the sisters 24" RF range and take wounds or do they stand fast and wait for something else to happen? Lets face it, your average IG player is really going to want to get his lasguns firing (all 50+ of them) so draw them in, back away and get them to fall into a hidden template (immolator) or orbital strike terrain piece.

 

I'm convinced that the best way to deal with guard is to use their strengths against them (size of units, type of firing). It's just a matter of being a bit more clever with how we play the game rather than what we play the game with.

[boreas]

You're quite right that IG has a very steep learning curve. Learning how to do a list (with enough mobile elements to prevent overcrowding you side), learning how to deal with the movement phase (as there will be some crowding anyways), learning how to use orders (no forget the command chain, optimizing who orders what and in what way), etc...

 

As for full blocage of LOS, it really depends a lot on your tables. We play with no "natural" terrain (hills, forest) and a lot of COD building kits. While they offer lots of cover saves, they rarely block LOS completely. Our gaming group is working on that, but most players should count on any LOS blocage beyond what they can provide (ie seraphims behin a Land Raider).

 

Another way WHs can overwhelm IG is by buiding an SM parent list with allied SOB. A canoness+celestians, a celestian unit, 2 SOB squads and a dominion squad (or seraphims) allies to a base SM list gives you something invaluable: Drop-pod marines. Just a few (2-3, enough for a SM captain with a tac. squad and 1-2 more tac squads) will tie up guards enough to bring your sisters in the fray. Keep them simple, a tooling SMs vs guard beyong a meltagun is overtooling!

 

Phil

[ArmouredWing]

As for full blocage of LOS, it really depends a lot on your tables. We play with no "natural" terrain (hills, forest) and a lot of COD building kits. While they offer lots of cover saves, they rarely block LOS completely. Our gaming group is working on that, but most players should count on any LOS blocage beyond what they can provide (ie seraphims behin a Land Raider).

My gaming group is working on the principle that pretty much every table should have at least 1 LoS blocking terrain piece. The tables in warhammer world do tend to follow this rule so we're working to pretty much the same rule.

[Imperator Mos]

Just a small addition on my part that I mentioned in a similar discussion recently; the Callidus is our best friend. Best unit we have for killing IG infantry in my opinion. Everything from "a word in your ear" ( move that pesky HW squad out of optimal LoS), to the neural shredder (low Ld). And there's not much threat from being in CC.

[SJumppanen]

What do we get from IG as ally? Can we get LR variants and/or squadrons? Or special characters?

[Hellbreaker]

We can't get LR variants and such from allying IG... OTOH if we spin it around we can, but then no exorcist. :(

[Toogeloo]

There is no reason we can't get LRs with our Inquisitor Retinues and still induct Guard though... and they would be transport choices and not HS so we can still take Exo's too.

[boreas]

I think he was referring to Leman Russ variants :)

 

Phil