Tinus Maximus Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ok, right now I am building the 4th company Bloodravens as featured in the DoW II game. This includes the main characters (sergeants) from the game. My problem is one of choice, I think. The sergeants in the game wield all kind of wargear. For instance, Avitus, the devastator sergeant, starts the game with a Heavy Bolter. And Tarkus eventually got his hands on a plasma gun in my latest game. This is all great. My problem is. however, that I am unsure if I can equip this kind of wargear on my sergeants in my tabletop builds. The codex just gives the choice between a normal bolter or all kinds of (small) wargear like the bolt pistol and chainsword combo. Can I, for instance, equip Avitus with the heavy bolter (being a sergeant) instead of a bolter or CC setup? How will it count against the number of Heavy Bolters in the squad (as Avitus has terminator honours)? And if I do give Tarkus the plasma gun, will it count as the choice for one plasma gun in that particular squad? Would it be terribly bad denying some of my sergeants the close quarter action in favor of a 'roleplaying' decision for extra firepower. Just FYI, Thaddeus, the Assault Sergeant, WILL be kitted with good close quarter wargear (like a powersword), as will my Librarian and other HQ options. I am not sure how I will equip Cyrus the scout 1st Sergeant yet, but I might go for a scoped bolter, so no conflicts should arise there. And what about terminator honours in general: Does this have any effect on sergeants (I didn't immediately find a Veteran Sergeant rule in the new codex) in 5th ed at all? Stuff changed, me confused :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Sergeants in squads can not take the squad upgrades, such as heavy bolters and plasmaguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The Dawn of War makers have taken some artistic license and have used squad sizes and model equipment that would not actually be used in the Warhammer 40K game or background. They have used strange hairdo as well, if I remember that scout sergeant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinus Maximus Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 So, even though a full squad (10 men) Tac squad could take for instance a flamer and a rocket launcher (as per fluff), the sergeant may not be the marine to carry one of those? That doesn't make very much sense, he's part of the ten men squad, right? And it would be more a downgrade then an upgrade... Just to be clear on this: I would not overstep the boundaries on the amount of heavy/assault weapons in the squad, I would just not upgrade my sergeant with sergeant specific wargear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maligoare Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Sergeants in squads can not take the squad upgrades, such as heavy bolters and plasmaguns. I'm not so sure. After a quick run though of the codex and BRB, I can't find where that rule is located. Perhaps it's something which changed with 5th, but if not, a page reference would be nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathar the great Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The entry in the codex says that one of the SPACE MARINES may take the special weapon and one of the SPACE MARINES may take the heavy weapon. The SERGEANT has other options. They are listed as two different things. So no, you can't equip Sergeants with any other wargear than listed in their specific options. Different in the Chaos Marine codex, where they talk about one of the models in the unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinus Maximus Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 Semantics. It says one of the marines in the unit may... The sergeant is one of the marines in the unit ;) he just has specific options just for him given by rank. He is still one of the marines in the unit, not a character on it's own :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Yes, that is how it is regulated with the current system. The options clearly specify who can get what upgrades. Sometimes every "model" can get the upgrade (like Grenades) but usually it is specifically for one of the model types the squad consists of. See under "Unit Composition", it lists the squad as consisting of "4 Space Marines" and "1 Space Marine Sergeant". Of course, as far as background goes the "Space Marine Sergeant" is a Space Marine, so are all veterans and characters. But in this case the rules differentiate between "Space Marine" and "Space Marine Sergeant" as a model type. Edit: This can be seen very clearly in the "scouts" entry. There are some options for "any model", some for "scouts" and some for the "scout sergeant". So, even though a full squad (10 men) Tac squad could take for instance a flamer and a rocket launcher (as per fluff), the sergeant may not be the marine to carry one of those? That doesn't make very much sense, he's part of the ten men squad, right? And it would be more a downgrade then an upgrade... Just to be clear on this: I would not overstep the boundaries on the amount of heavy/assault weapons in the squad, I would just not upgrade my sergeant with sergeant specific wargear. In fluff it is probably not done because carrying a heavy weapon would restrict the Sergeants movement. 1st and 2nd Edition 40K even had rules for that, but they were not brought into 3rd Edition (in 1st it was a movement penalty, in 2nd it was a close combat penalty instead). The Marine with the heavy weapon is on the look out for suitable targets (there were rules for that in 2nd Ed as well, where the heavy weapon could fire at a different target than the rest of the squad). The Sergeant has to direct the squad. As far as rules go, even though the Sergeant does not have a different BS and the unit as a whole would not have more heavy weapons, it would still make a difference. The rules for taking casualties and allocating wounds allow you to partially influence which models of the unit are removed earlier, and which models have a better chance of surviving till the end. Often you can directly chose which models are removed and which models remain. So at some point you would perhaps be required to decide whether you wanted to allocate the wound to the LD9 and A2 model or the model carrying the heavy weapon. If you would be able to put the heavy weapon on the model that has the better stats anyway, the situation would be different. With the same two models surviving, you would now have to decide between allocating a wound to the model with LD9, A2 and the heavy bolter and a basic marine with boltgun. Suddenly it is not such a different choice anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinus Maximus Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ah, now that is an explanation I can live with. Hm. that means I will now have to remove Avitus head (ouch), as I had already prepared the rest of his components for the Heavy Bolter setup. It was the only sergeant's head with hair on it that I had :P... I may have to greenstuff/putty for emergency surgery.. Thank goodness I didn't glue Tarkus' plasmagun to his hands yet, so I can still give him a bolter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 A workaround might be to just have one of the regular marines count as Avitus, and some other guy then has the LD9 and extra attack. It would not feel perfectly right, but you could have a decorated heavy bolter guy. The model that is actually supposed to be the sergeant would have to be recognizeable in some way though. So in effect it would just be a decorated heavy weapon marine, and a slightly less decorated sergeant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 At least in the case of Tarkus you could give him a combi-plasma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 A workaround might be to just have one of the regular marines count as Avitus, and some other guy then has the LD9 and extra attack. It would not feel perfectly right, but you could have a decorated heavy bolter guy. The model that is actually supposed to be the sergeant would have to be recognizeable in some way though. So in effect it would just be a decorated heavy weapon marine, and a slightly less decorated sergeant. this was what i was gonna suggest, just have him look sergenty but make sure to have a 'deputy' who has the sgt. state line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinus Maximus Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 A workaround might be to just have one of the regular marines count as Avitus, and some other guy then has the LD9 and extra attack. It would not feel perfectly right, but you could have a decorated heavy bolter guy. The model that is actually supposed to be the sergeant would have to be recognizeable in some way though. So in effect it would just be a decorated heavy weapon marine, and a slightly less decorated sergeant. What an excellent idea! And I think I have just the marine for the job lying around :). I got a single 'standard' bolter marine in a Mk 8 powerarmor that I wanted to make an officer. He'll fit the bill as Avitus' "apprentice" and effective LD9 sergeant replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 As mentioned you can not do what you where wanting. HOWEVER I do have a work around: HQ - simple enough, just dont arm him with any heavy or speacial weapons and your fine. Personally my favourite is either thunder hammer, or termie armour and hammer and shield combo <_< Heavy support - very easy answer here, combat squads. Make a squad with a plasma cannon and heavy bolters, combat squad the unit, then SAY that the plasma cannon guy is the speacial character - he has no extra rules at all, but this does mean that at least the unit LOOKS about right. Troops - same deal, or go with a termie squad. Fast atack - no need to do anything here, just arm him right or place in termie armour. Scouts - one model armed with a sniper rifle, there you go Dread - Easy enough Just make sure that the SPEACAIL units look better then the rest of your army, and then you will have a fluff based army as well as a functional one :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinus Maximus Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 Well, I decided to go for my initial sollution... Tarkus gets a bolter, and I may include a chainsword and (holstered) boltpistol/plasmapistol on his base and leg, so I deploy him with either choice, depending on the battle (so I at least have the weapons 'on the model', even though I am not using them at the same time in the same battle). Avitus has had a makeover. I lobbed the head off the Heavy Bolter guy and glued it to a new marine body. Then I gave the new Avitus a stormbolter and a powerfist (as he does have terminator honours, fluff wise), which are perfectly legal choices for a sergeant. Solved! Thaddeus will get a boltpistol and powersword, I think, and I'll use the sergeant's head of a second Devastator set (still to be bought), to prevent any unneccesary greenstuffing :lol: Now if I am correct, Cyrus could get a sniper riffle, but as said I think I am giving him a scoped bolter. God only knows how I'm going to GS his head though. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Cyrus can actually be a counts-as Telion. Telion has the scoped bolter, which also doubles as a sniper rifle (so either could be used for the counts as) and Telion, like Cyrus, decided to stay in the scouts to train the future generations. As for Avitus, the dev sarge grants one model BS 5 when firing. THUS, Avitus can be using one of the heavy bolters/missile launchers/whatever from the squad at BS5. So you can model an 'Avitus' with a heavy weapon and a lacky who shall carry Avitus' heavy weapon ammo--when the ammo carrier dies (the actual heavy weapon equipped model) Avitus cant fire the heavy weapon any more. Same can go for Tarkus with a plasma gun lackey, but Tarkus does get a lot more gear than a plasma gun, so you may want to hold off on a set Tarkus model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weakest Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 You could always just house rule it, just tell everyone you play you are using a modified marine codex... nothing cheesey. Just your sarge's are named and can take special/heavy weapons but you will never go over the normal alloted amounts of special wargear... IE a normal 10man tac squad gets 1 sarge 7 bolter marines and 2 special marines but under your rules they get 1 special carrying sarge, 1 special marine and 7 bolter marines. Maybe some minor special rules and some expanded point costs if you wanted as well. I personally wouldn't mind playing anyone who did that (Outside of a Tourney or competetive game of course). Its just a few sarges with some special/heavy weapons. In the end each squad still has their normal amount of allotted weaponry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinus Maximus Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Thanks for all the suggestions guys! As said, I've modelled Avitus with a stormbolter and powerfist now, and it works rather well. I made a small mistake with the breastplate I gave him (he now has the imperial eagle and skull instead of the straps and voxbox) but hey, he isn't carrying an ammo pack for a Heavy bolter either, so that looks just fine. Tarkus looks great with a bolter and some frag nades on his belt too, I'll keep him this way. I think I will prime them tonite/this weekend and post them in the WIP section (if the rain here in Utrecht will stop and I can use my spraycan outside, that is). This pics will follow! As for Cyrus, I could use the Telion rules. Good suggestion. Can't use the model, as the cyberimplant eye is on the wrong side (DARN!), but I'll figure something out whilst greenstuffing. Thaddeus is on my to do list. He should be simplest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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